Why does click track = bicycle helmet??

[samwinston123]

There are plenty of players that can hold a steady tempo when playing normally, but when they get into the studio they get nervous/excited and have a tendency to rush, so that by the end of the song they're playing significantly faster. This effect is multiplied by the number of takes they've done.

Some people just need to practice with a click regularly, because their internal metronome doesn't work very well. Conscious tempo changes between parts of songs are fine, but problems arise with people who change tempo within the same bar.

[js1]

Let's take the bad drummers out of this discussion. They need clicks, lessons, replacement, whatever.

I don't define a good drummer as one who can listen to a click and track it. I define a good drummer as one who listens to the band and can groove it.

I've played with drummers that could follow a click and were totally oblivious to what the rest of the band was doing. They follow the click, we're supposed to follow the drummer. If the click is the feel and the drummer is the middleman, well, cut out the middleman.

Everyone in the band is responsible for tempo and feel. Everyone needs to listen to each other. And maybe at the end, everyone speeds up and slows down together. If it makes you feel good, then it's the right thing.

Of course, that means that the band has to play together.

js

[uncle duncan]

One technique that's worked for me is telling the musicians to imagine the click as a train, and they're the caboose.

My favorite studio drummer/bass player combo usually decide whether or not to use as click. 90% of the time, they want it.

When I'm producing my own song demos, sometimes I find I need to bump up the bpm's a bit for the chorus, and then back down for the next verse. Whatever you do, you have to serve the song, not the technology.

[dbbubba]

I have been blessed for the last thirteen years and only work with a few REALLY good drummers. They could play with a click or without depending on the situation. There were situations where a click was a hindrance (a band that had a sound or groove/style.) There were many situations where it was a drummer playing to a click and all of the instruments were already recorded. In other words the drummer was the LAST INSTRUMENT OVER-DUBBED.
Not only can a really good drumer do this, but good ones can even inject further groove or swing or whatever feel is needed over tracks cut to MIDI drums or instruments.

Now this isn't a guy that plays baddass solos and rocks with a band.
It is a guy who does two, three sessions per day.

Back in the days of recording every band that could afford me and my room it was a hit or miss thing as far as the drummer's or the band's ability to play to a click track.
It was always WAYYYYYYYYY harder for a band to play with a click track simply because it was hard for them, to hear it in the cue mix.

It is a skill that you absolutely must learn though if you are doing serious work.

Like pitch, vibrato, keeping time, playing with a groove, etc...
You learn from experience (if you have that ability) and you especially learn from playing with people who already posses these skills. Sometimes this is hinderance in a band. The band limits itself. The weakest link determines the end result.

Playing to absolute or perfect time can also make playing with a live band who doesn't record VERY difficult or at least a challenge. I personaly encounter this every time I play with a band because I am not a "band" player. I have played almost exclusively in the studio since I was nineteen, so that is thirtytwo years of OD'ing to tracks that keep time.

Still, as long as the basic tracks have a good feel then it doesn' matter if the band playes to a click.

Personally, EVERYTHING I do IS cut to a click or MIDI drum track which is replaced.

Then again, one band that I have recorded for years and years plays without a click and they rock their butts off! They have been playing a long time, too.
For non production music, this is probebly the easiest stuff to record and feels the best.

I don't miss the days of guy's that can't play with a click and can't keep time.

[toolskid]

I find a small but important semantic detail is

play WITH the click

not

play TO the click

!

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by toolskid

I find a small but important semantic detail is

play WITH the click

not

play TO the click

!

Great post.

[jmiller]

Originally Posted by flail19

You might as well have a nun standing there with a hard wooden ruler ready to slap the drummer’s hand a t every little variance. Yeah, try the loop.

This is still the best idea so far. Does Guitard Center sell nuns?

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by jmiller

This is still the best idea so far. Does Guitard Center sell nuns?

I was recording a high school pop punk band a few years back and the guitarist was totally struggling to play to a click for a solo acoustic/vocal track. We need to get it reasonably on time for some overdubs (that couldn't be played live with him) so I had no choice but to go the click track route... we tried EVERYTHING. Click, hi hat, marimba, lights, waving hands, clapping in the TB mic... finally I told the drummer to go in the live room with him and fed him the click in some cans, gave him a hot rod and told him to tap the tempo out on the kid's back. The more off he'd get, the harder the drummer was allowed to hit him with the hot rod. That is what finally did the trick and it made for some laughs in an otherwise tense situation for the band.

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

I was recording a high school pop punk band a few years back and the guitarist was totally struggling to play to a click for a solo acoustic/vocal track. We need to get it reasonably on time for some overdubs (that couldn't be played live with him) so I had no choice but to go the click track route... we tried EVERYTHING. Click, hi hat, marimba, lights, waving hands, clapping in the TB mic... finally I told the drummer to go in the live room with him and fed him the click in some cans, gave him a hot rod and told him to tap the tempo out on the kid's back. The more off he'd get, the harder the drummer was allowed to hit him with the hot rod. That is what finally did the trick and it made for some laughs in an otherwise tense situation for the band.

excelent!!!!
i would give the drummer a baseball bat...

[ericwall]

Originally Posted by PhilE

When was the metronome invented?
The idea of playing to a click and snapping to a grid are very different in my eyes (and ears)

I'm talking about playing and relating to something static in general. Doesn't matter if it's a metronome, DAW, click or drummachine. Anything static.

/EW

[analogtodd]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

I was recording a high school pop punk band a few years back and the guitarist was totally struggling to play to a click for a solo acoustic/vocal track. We need to get it reasonably on time for some overdubs (that couldn't be played live with him) so I had no choice but to go the click track route... we tried EVERYTHING. Click, hi hat, marimba, lights, waving hands, clapping in the TB mic... finally I told the drummer to go in the live room with him and fed him the click in some cans, gave him a hot rod and told him to tap the tempo out on the kid's back. The more off he'd get, the harder the drummer was allowed to hit him with the hot rod. That is what finally did the trick and it made for some laughs in an otherwise tense situation for the band.

The drummer was hitting him with a "hot rod"
hmmmm dunno if I'd want to be involved with those sessions...
not that theres anything wrong with that

[Tone Laborer]

Midi up some drums, or use loops. That's a lot better than trying to play to

PHINK, dink, dink, dink, PHINK, dink, dink, dink.

Personally, I don't like click tracks and try damn hard not to use them. You're style of music might have different needs.

[PhilE]

Originally Posted by ericwall

I'm talking about playing and relating to something static in general. Doesn't matter if it's a metronome, DAW, click or drummachine. Anything static.

/EW

And what are you saying?
------------------------------------------------

IME people who get all 'anti click' are those who have trouble using it- it ruins their feel, they feel out of control, they think that their artistic license is being taken away.
The reality is that they dont know how to work with a click and never bothered to learn, these are also the same people who think that feel and soul come only from mistakes.

[dbbubba]

One of the best and VERY busy session drummers that I have use for hundreds of sessions doesn't want to hear ANYTHING except the count-off clicks and the instruments that he is playing to.

In most situations I have had him OD to a completed track that was cut to MIDI and 90% of the instruments were replaced.
Of course, because it was cut to MIDI and the players were all seasoned session veterans, it was rock solid.
In places where there where "holes" he would want a click track as a guide.

We used this technique on hundreds opf cuts and I was always amazed at how he could inject a great swing feel to pieces of music like big band, C&W, blues, etc...

On rock cuts I often build a skeletal version of the cut with MIDI bass and "scratch" GTRs. After the final, completed drum parts are recorded I would then OD to what the drummer played. I have used the same session player I mentioned for about ten years now. I just know the results I'll get.

As another note:
A friend of mine was talking about playing on stage in a band where you really can't hear yourself or what you are playing that well. He said that it was like playing to a click track because you can't hear you are "off" until you hear the click. When you are "on" and playing the correct part you can't hear yourself, but as soon as you make a mistake....
This is like playing to a click. You can't hear it that well until you are off!

[Tone Laborer]

Originally Posted by PhilE

IME people who get all 'anti click' are those who have trouble using it- it ruins their feel, they feel out of control, they think that their artistic license is being taken away.
The reality is that they dont know how to work with a click and never bothered to learn, these are also the same people who think that feel and soul come only from mistakes.

Yeah, thankfully we have you to point out what "reality" is for us all.

Really ignorant post.

[stellar]

really...

has anyone tried accenting the up-beats with the click. boo BAH boo BAH ....i find this makes it a lot easier. but if you can cut it without a click and still stay in time it will sound better almost every time, at least for what I am doing.

[Blindside]

Well, I don't get it either, but it's more common than you might think. I know some good musicians who simply can't follow a click.

I write, perform and record/mix my own music, so I HAVE to be able to play to a click. In marching band, being a drummer, metronomes were our friends.

"Grooving" to a click track (as mentioned earlier) is more difficult, but can definitely be done.

Check out the link in my sig. I feel like there is a little "groove" in it.

[indie]

When I first started playing on sessions, 15 years ago, (good grief I'm old) the producer told me to play 'late' to the click. This producer was all mpc 60 at the time, so that was great advice. I play gtr ,not drums, but the same principle applies. It helps calm the excitement of 'red light syndrome' -- record enabled tracks.
Sometimes at a session when the drummer really locks to the click for the first time...they 'lose' the click...it freaks them out, but that's how they know they're on.

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by grammo76

I was asked to remix a cd for a local rock band recently. These guys went on about how "awesome" their drummer was, and how serious they were about their music. These guys had all their pro tools data files so i figured this should be easy... So i got the data loaded into pro tools and the drummer absolutely sucked. He must must have changed 30 bpm between verse to bridge to chorus and back. It was so bad that i thought maybe just maybe they did it on purpose. So i mentioned the tempo change, and they had no idea what i was talking about. I tried beat detective and it replied "yeah right", and locked up...:op. So i turned them down, said i couldn't help them.

Do you guys keep a session drummer on speed dial for your studio?

I don't understand your complaint. Their music is dynamic and changing. If you listen to any classic tracks, you'll find a lot of variation from measure to measure. PT and Logic have beat mapping features. I don't understand why it locks up, but thats what those features are made to handle. Just break the song into parts, and beat map each part. Whats so hard about that? Sure it takes a little time, but I do that in Logic and its not that long. If they want to have tempo changes, then you should be flexible enough to accomodate their musical vision. If you try to force that to a click track you'll rip the soul out of their music. By the way, Giles Martin said that he took the Beatles tracks for the Love project and time corrected all the beats, and the music was then lifeless.

[travisbrown]

I remember a few years ago Peter Gabriel released the multitracks for "Shock the Monkey" for a remix challenge.

On some forum somewhere (maybe even here!?)I read and laughed because the biggest and most common complaint was, "WTF?!? The tempo changes! Was the tape machine varispeeding? How can we do anything with this!? I can't believe how much this recording sucks!"

Man, that Jerry Marotta must suck.