How does the Duende do it??

[manthe]

I spent close to 4 hours last night...until almost 3 am, 'messing with' my Duende. I dropped an acoustic guitar clip out of a mix, into its own project.

It was the perfect candidate for testing a channel strip and/or compressor. It needed just a little EQ and a fair amount of compression. The guitarist was a heavy handed strummer. The track was good, but the dynamics were just a little out of control.

I thought it might be good to test it, *unscientifically* to see what chain of gear and or software would would give me the sound I was hearing in my head. This was NOT a comparison. It was basically a subjective test of various stuff, in an attempt to achieve a sound.

Long story, not so short:

I've always been a bit of a 'fanboy' for the Duende, in terms of its sound. I have issues with SSL and how they've dealt (and still deal) with this product. I also realize that some people suffer major stability issues.

That not withstanding, I have renewed fascination for this unit. I ran this track through 3 or 4 different, outboard chains using quality components (VP MaxiQ EQs, UA 1176LN compressor, Klark Teknik DN500+ comp, Trident 4T EQ/comp, LA-610 comp/EQ, DBX 160X comps, UREI 537 graphic EQ, etc, etc).

I also tried several software plug-in channel strips, as well as several EQ/compressor plug-in combos. I figured it would be a good time to demo a lot of the more popular plug-ins (channel strips and/or EQ/comp combos). Of note, along with the Duende CS, I also tried the UAD-1 Neve 88RS CS (which I own), URS Classic CS (demo), Kjaerhus VC64 (own), Sony Oxford EQ+Comp (demo), various combinations of every UAD-1 Neve offering + Fairchild/LA-2A/etc, Voxengo, Sonalksis...you get the picture.

I've always known that the Duende was special and had a unique sound among plug-ins. But, until I pitted it against other 'high-end' plug-ins, as well as great hardware, it was not clear just *how* special it actually is.

I am now determined to find out how the hell SSL has been able to do what (IMO) many other plug-in developers have been striving to do all along...make it sound like hardware!

I'm not kidding...nor am I guessing. All of the tracks that I routed out through hardware signal processing chains came back sounding better than any combination of of plug-ins, except for the Duende. There was always 2 things that separated the hardware processed tracks from the ITB tracks; a sense of 'air' and dimensionality. I know those terms are subjective, unscientific and un-quantifiable. But, I think a lot of people understand what I'm driving at.

The Duende imparted the 'air' and, most shockingly of all, the depth and width that the OTB tracks demonstrated. I don't know how they've accomplished it, but I hope they can bottle it and put it in any additional plug-ins they may offer for the Duende.

I guess I started this thread to:

A - see if I'm crazy. To see if any one else can corroborate my findings

B - help any one who may be on the fence about it

C - express my amazement

It isn't cheap, but given how it sounds and what it sounds like (hardware, IMO), it actually is cheap! I am pretty sure I'm going to buy a second one now as well.

My Disclaimer:

I have read about TONS of stability issues with this device. I've been lucky there. beware if you intend to buy one. Make sure there is a good return policy, or be willing to sit on it until SSL fixes it. Which leads me in to part 2 of my disclaimer...I have been very disappointed with SSL regarding how they've handled this product. The support is web only and they have been evasive and occasionally 'mistaken' (dishonest?) when it comes to updates, announcements, problem recognition, etc.

[Diegel]

Hey manthe I just went out to guitar center to get Duende on your very high recommendation. Haven't gotten a chance to set it up and try it out yet but I will by Monday. I'll let you know what I think asap.

[Jim@SSL]

Manthe

Sorry that you feel we've let people down a little over the last year. We have been working our socks off to get the drivers bang on, and feel with the latest release that we are in a good spot. We sent our main tech guys from the Duende team to visit an Apple conference where they met with some of their guys - this had led to more than 50% of the CPU overhead on Mac being programmed out. We are most definitely "getting there". More will be coming for the Duende platform very soon.....

As to why does it sound good?

It's the same DSP and same algorithms as our C Series digital consoles. It works at 40-bit floating point so has more headroom than most digital devices. It was programmed to be just like one of our boards.

[chymer]

Hey man, I dont personally think your crazy.
I use SOUNDSCAPE and the SSL EQ (which is the same as the Duende).
I posted a mix here in the MP3 upload and a bunch of the guys thought it sounded like an OTB mix. This was the first proper mix I had done with the SSL EQ and I love it. I would love SSL to port the whole channel strip over....hint...hint.....
Anyway, I think the SSL stuff is the best digital EQs out there along with ALGORITHMIX...which is also in Soundscape.......
Chymer

[B-San]

Most intersting! I was thinking about getting Wave's SSL bundle until I seen many posters in the Sonar forum who were more than unhappy with some of Wave's current business practices... For example:

ORIGINAL: Soundweaver

I do hope the market votes with their dollars in this case, because you've lost a customer and I'll be sure to let folks know what they are getting into when they "buy" (or in Waves dictionary meaning "lease until you change the rules") your good sounding software. Sure, if they get into it now, it's no trouble...just get an iLock and you're all set....UNTIL 2009 when Waves introduces the all-new "iLock II-Tiger/XP Platinum Edition" and you can only reinstall if you get the new iLock system. For only $99...

Do any of you know how the Duende version of the SSL plugs stack up against the Wave's...

O BTW - I also run 2 UAD-1 cards and a fully stocked Powercore, so I have little resevation towards adding another external DSP unit to my setup.... The only thing I'm wondering (as a Sonar and part-time PT LE user) is if Duende's software includes any delay comps... similar to ones that come with the UAD-1?

Many thanks in advance!

[Bang]

Can someone tell me why 80% of the time when I have a duende plugin on an insert point in Nuendo on PC, the track doesn't play? And most of the time I have to restart the entire system to get the track to play? But if I close the project and open it again, same deal, tracks don't play. Duende is on its own dedicated firewire PCI card with no other drives or anything. I have the latest 2.2 drivers.

[JimmySX]

I like my Duende as well very much. I am one of the lucky guys with a rocksolid Duende. I am still on v1.5 and it is da bomb!!! Together with my 4 UADs they complement each other very well.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by JimmySX

I like my Duende as well very much. I am one of the lucky guys with a rocksolid Duende. I am still on v1.5 and it is da bomb!!! Together with my 4 UADs they complement each other very well.

Sounds like we have very similar systems. I have 4 UAD-1s as well and I have 0 issues (ever since I downgraded from 2.2). Actually, i have 2.1 because I bought and use Drumstrip EXTENSIVELY! 2.1 is a s rock-solid as 1.5 was for me.

What DAW(s) do you use?

[manthe]

Originally Posted by Bang

Can someone tell me why 80% of the time when I have a duende plugin on an insert point in Nuendo on PC, the track doesn't play? And most of the time I have to restart the entire system to get the track to play? But if I close the project and open it again, same deal, tracks don't play. Duende is on its own dedicated firewire PCI card with no other drives or anything. I have the latest 2.2 drivers.

What bit rate are you operating at? How many other firewire PCI and onboard cards and devices does your system have? Which version of Nuendo/Windows are you using? What audio IF do you use on your system? Do you use ASIO OR WDM?

Are there any other consistent variables that are in place when this happens that you can nail down?

[JimmySX]

Originally Posted by manthe

Sounds like we have very similar systems. I have 4 UAD-1s as well and I have 0 issues (ever since I downgraded from 2.2). Actually, i have 2.1 because I bought and use Drumstrip EXTENSIVELY! 2.1 is a s rock-solid as 1.5 was for me.

What DAW(s) do you use?

I use Nuendo 3.2. What DAW do you use?

[JimmySX]

That's strange. Because of Manthe asking what DAW I use, I now notice that my signature just vanished!!!!

[JimmySX]

And now it's back.....must be the Halloweenbug

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Bang

Can someone tell me why 80% of the time when I have a duende plugin on an insert point in Nuendo on PC, the track doesn't play? And most of the time I have to restart the entire system to get the track to play? But if I close the project and open it again, same deal, tracks don't play. Duende is on its own dedicated firewire PCI card with no other drives or anything. I have the latest 2.2 drivers.

I have the exact same problem here.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by JimmySX

I use Nuendo 3.2. What DAW do you use?

I use sonar 7, ptle 7.3 and on my mac i use logic

[Football]

Originally Posted by Bang

Can someone tell me why 80% of the time when I have a duende plugin on an insert point in Nuendo on PC, the track doesn't play? And most of the time I have to restart the entire system to get the track to play? But if I close the project and open it again, same deal, tracks don't play. Duende is on its own dedicated firewire PCI card with no other drives or anything. I have the latest 2.2 drivers.

Hey Bang, did this get resolved? If so, what is your opinion of Duende's sound?

Thank you

[Jim@SSL]

We've been in touch with Bang to get him goingthumbsup

[Football]

Originally Posted by Jim@SSL

We've been in touch with Bang to get him goingthumbsup

Jim, it's great to see you on top of this stuff and giving SSL a voice here.

[JimmySX]

Originally Posted by Bang

Can someone tell me why 80% of the time when I have a duende plugin on an insert point in Nuendo on PC, the track doesn't play? And most of the time I have to restart the entire system to get the track to play? But if I close the project and open it again, same deal, tracks don't play. Duende is on its own dedicated firewire PCI card with no other drives or anything. I have the latest 2.2 drivers.

It sounds a lot like the latency issue which I'm also encountering these days!
For a project I had to change my latency back to 1024 and then problems started to happen. As soon as I went back to 128 Duende was responding at all! All tracks with Duende inserts wouldn't play. When I changed the latency back to 1024, they started to play again.
Maybe this is also Bang's solution

[bonneybear]

Does Duende now work on PC,? I thought it was a Mac only product. Im running Pro-tools le Digi 002, on a PC .....all RTAS, will Duende work on my system

[manthe]

Originally Posted by bonneybear

Does Duende now work on PC,? I thought it was a Mac only product. Im running Pro-tools le Digi 002, on a PC .....all RTAS, will Duende work on my system

I've been using it on my PC for 1.5 years now! It has worked on a PC for almost 2 years!

[B-San]

Hey Manthe,

As a fellow Sonar user, I have to ask if you are you still using version 2.1 of the software... or is there a more current version of the software that works well with Sonar 7?

[manthe]

Originally Posted by B-San

Hey Manthe,

As a fellow Sonar user, I have to ask if you are you still using version 2.1 of the software... or is there a more current version of the software that works well with Sonar 7?

I am using 2.3 right now. I've never had any issues with Sonar, in particular. The 1 issue I have had came as a result of the 2.2 update originally and it was system wide (Wavelab, etc). I'm wondering if it had something to do with upgrading to a quad processor and compatibility issues. I rebuilt my entire system from scratch when 7 came out and upgraded the Duende in the process. It has been back to its usual, flawless self since then. Aside from that terrible incident, I've been extremely lucky with the Duende, according to a lot of posts that I see. I've also started doing all of my projects at 88.2 instead of 48k. This was actually an issue back when I first purchased it (1.x software). It used to slow down once you had a handful loaded at anything over 48k. Now it seems to be fine and things sound even better on my system at that rate than every before.

[The Beatsmith]

well, the Duende uses 40-bit floating point Sharc processors... maybe this has something to do with it, as well as amazing programming and design?

it's unbelievable... i love it... more good things to come for the duende i am sure

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by chymer

Hey man, I dont personally think your crazy.
I use SOUNDSCAPE and the SSL EQ (which is the same as the Duende).

Do you mean the waves SSL EQ - 'cos that's NOT the same thing as the Duende.

The Waves EQ is a re-creation of the G-EQ (or E-Channel if you're using that part of the plugin).

The Duende (as far as I'm aware) is the same code that runs on the C200 consoles.

Made by different companies...effectively competing products.

Both may sound great - but Manthe is talking specifically about the Duende, and not the Waves emulation.

[Diegel]

Hey Manthe. Do you ever have issues using Duende along with UAD plugs. I also use Sonar btw. If I have a UAD plug inserted on a track and then try tweaking the duende channel strip on the same track the audio disappears and I have to disable the UAD plugin and/or restart sonar to get the audio back. I have been working very hard to work out all the bugs out to help justify the cost vs. the fantastic quality of duende. I think for the price there is no way to eq almost every track in a project like you would on a hardware mixing console and get as good quality wether it be in the plugin world or even hardware world. What price would you say you would have to pay for a hardware mixing console to get the level of quality you get with duende?

[Diegel]

Also doesn't the Stereo bus compressor usually get placed on the master outs? How do you do this in Sonar? Right now I just have it on a bus I send each track to as a send like I do for reverbs and delays. Is that how you use it?

[phillysoulman]

I use the Waves SSL bundle and Ive had it a-b'd against the real thing, and the results were astounding.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by Diegel

Also doesn't the Stereo bus compressor usually get placed on the master outs? How do you do this in Sonar? Right now I just have it on a bus I send each track to as a send like I do for reverbs and delays. Is that how you use it?

Which version of Sonar do you use? You should have it set up with a Master Bus that references your hardware, stereo outs as the 'final audio destination'. This would be the virtual, proverbial 2bus. Then, you set your tracks up individually to send their outputs to either another bus for stems (this is how I mix 100% of the time) and set the output of your stem busses to the Master. You can also set up some of the tracks that do not go to stems to output directly to the master. Sends really aren't optimal for compression unless you are trying to do paralell compression...same for EQ. I typically only use sends for reverbs...though sometimes I'll use them for delays and other modulation-style effects.

Basically, set it up exactly as you would an analog console (you know...a console with unlimited, insert-as-you-go tracks, AUXs and busses )

[manthe]

Originally Posted by Diegel

Hey Manthe. Do you ever have issues using Duende along with UAD plugs. I also use Sonar btw. If I have a UAD plug inserted on a track and then try tweaking the duende channel strip on the same track the audio disappears and I have to disable the UAD plugin and/or restart sonar to get the audio back. I have been working very hard to work out all the bugs out to help justify the cost vs. the fantastic quality of duende. I think for the price there is no way to eq almost every track in a project like you would on a hardware mixing console and get as good quality wether it be in the plugin world or even hardware world. What price would you say you would have to pay for a hardware mixing console to get the level of quality you get with duende?

Actually, i don't seem to have issues with my UAD and Duende stuff coexisting, even on the same track. I am using the latest UAD drivers/plugs with Sonar compatibility switched on. I usually turn that switch off when I mix down to stereo, but thats it. It sounds like IRQ issues in your system. Maybe the Duende/FW controller is conflicting with 1 or more of your UAD cards?

[Bang]

To confirm, SSL guys got in touch with me and were very helpful and I do think the Duende sounds great and I recommend it. I also recommend the SSL X RACK stuff which is drool worthy and will surely be heard on future updates of our drum package. Thanks JIM and team!