analog 2 track

[audiothings]

i'm in india and i've never seen an analog 2 track recorder in action. i'm a musician/engineer and i work mostly in the digital domain (motu 2408 mk3, uad-1, powercore...).

of late, i've been doing some (indian) classical recordings and i feel that multi micing-multitracking is not working for the music, i want to go stereo mic pair into analog 2 track. i find the records done in the 70s have that sound and they were made in this way...

problem is that i know NOTHING about analog 2 track machines other than that i have consistently liked the recordings made on them... i would like a primer on analog 2 track machines from you guys... will be most grateful any info / links to info.

* machine cost / tape cost

* how many times can the tape be overwritten on without quality loss

* SOUND as compared to red book cd, 24/96, dsd.

* maintenance issues, spares, ease of servicing etc.

* settings : what are the different settings and how do they affect the sound

* 1/4", 1/2": differences, benefits of each



thanks in advance,

self.

[lucey]

a Nagra machine and 2 mics sounds terrific for live music in a good room

it's a portable 7 1/2 ips machine, with no pre needed just plug mics right in. i know a guy who does jazz this way and it's mastered very little ... walla!



if you are not needing a portable or are worried about service, the ATR 102 is terrific and sounds great. get one from Mike Spitz at ATR Service, refurbished like new. more $ but tip top shape and a real tank. he has 1/2" or 1/4" machines

1/2" tape is about $45/reel at 2500 ft. Emtec 900.

2500ft is 33 minutes at 15ips and half that at 30 ips.

both speeds are very quiet, 30 ips is of course the most quiet.

tape is good as long as it has the oxide coating, once it sheds you lose out. if it does not shed, you can go for pass upon pass. if it gets hot and humid they sticky. then need to be dry heated (or "baked")

settings: speed, eq hi/low, and bias (distortion)




you might need tape for your sound, or you might just need a better A/D convcerter or pre amp???

[audiothings]

thanks very much lucey for a very patient reply.

my situation is this. i have been making these classical recordings with the leading musicians in this genre, the recordings being funded by a wealthy individual who has started his own label.

i am extremely unhappy with the quality i'm getting, because every detail is compromised in these recordings: the venue, the equipment, the monitoring and just about everything else. but the client is happy and he doesn't want any better.

the artistes however see my point, and a couple of them are ready to back me with money and connections. so i have one chance to suggest a complete change in technology and approach, and it had better work, or else i'm screwed, coz' its not my money but it IS my reputation.

in chennai, india (where us$1 can feed a family for a day), there is JUST NO CHANCE of audiophile gear comparisons, as there is literally NO audiophile gear in this city of over 5 million people (save a couple of lafont consoles in film mixing studios, a euphonix system 5 at the private studio of the world's most popular composer, a.r.rehman, and the odd focusrite producer pack..). so i have to make my suggestions based on intuition and hearsay...

i have been interested in analog only because the recordings i love are all analog (pre digital), not because i've discovered through experience that analog works better. however, given the cost of tape and other issues i have also been considering a digital setup (pearl mics (in a blumlein array)->dw fearn pre->cranesong hedd 192->computer, and this may indeed be the way for me to go. guess i'm thinking analog is safe coz' i've heard it work for the music, but the physical hassle and recurring expense keep me from going ahead with it.

anyway i guess ill stop rambling and look forward to more thoughts from you guys.

thanks again,
self.

[natpub]

This thread has very much information:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...ight=classical

I would stay digital. Considering all the other factors you are struggling with, I do not see the need to add distortion in the form of analog saturation. There is probably more to what you are hearing on the older recordings that you like than just the tape, such as the microphones used.

Best regards,

KT

[lucey]

Originally posted by audiothings

i have been interested in analog only because the recordings i love are all analog (pre digital), not because i've discovered through experience that analog works better. however, given the cost of tape and other issues i have also been considering a digital setup (pearl mics (in a blumlein array)->dw fearn pre->cranesong hedd 192->computer, and this may indeed be the way for me to go. guess i'm thinking analog is safe coz' i've heard it work for the music, but the physical hassle and recurring expense keep me from going ahead with it.

again, a Nagra portable 1/4" machine and a closely matched pair of 414eb's is the set up the guy i know uses ...but he has support on the Nagra, and great rooms, and knows what he's doing.

if money is not the object i strongly suggest a Spider, not a HEDD. then you can do up to 8 tracks to digital (lightpipe) and you can mix them to 2 on the fly or mix it later in the box or out. the Spider, which i'm lucky to say i named, is the bomb for live work, warm, clear, reliable and sounds almost analog-with-better-specs and solid state reliability.

The HEDD 192 I use daily and it's also terrific but why not go all out and have 8 ch plus analog summing?

Then get 4 pairs of mics that are matched, so you can use any 2, 4, 6, or 8 of them and be sure they are hand matched at purchasing. The options here are vast but off the top of my head :

Josephson Series 6 (multi capsule pair)
DPA 4006 omni pair
Royer SF12 (stereo ribbon)

As for Pres, go Spider. i'd avoid the Fearn or any tube pre as the heat there and the non linearity of pairs may cause you more trouble than it's worth. the Spider sounds both warm and clear and has a color knob for harmonic distortion efffects ... plus it's 100% reliable, forever. and you can mix through it at line level if it's an 8 track mixdown and you want to go 'out of the box' for analog compression or analog summing.

If you cant make a great recording with those mics and the Spider in 2, 4, 6, or 8 mic set ups ... forget it!

Youre looking at $15,000 or so total. plus mastering, per project

[threm]

Waterlilly Acoustics have a puristic approach to recording, using equipment by High end audio designer Tim de Paravicini of EAR- Yoshino (guest moderator in March).
http://www.waterlilyacoustics.com/main.htm
They've done Indian music that some people don't like. I myself think they lack some "excitement" in their striving for being True.
In my ears a little sterile and distant, in spite of glowing tubes,
high end mikes and hot rodded analog recorders.
The final results of a recording have as much to do with the philo-
sohpy of recording as the equipment used, I think.
Close miking versus a more "objective" approach, etc.
How to help the recording to give the listener a sense of being there? Maybe a dogmatic and puristic approach doesn't always
transmit a sense of realness?
Other labels that list the equipment used -
Chesky, Audioquest, Delos, Telarc.

[djui5]

Originally posted by audiothings
thanks very much lucey for a very patient reply.

my situation is this. i have been making these classical recordings with the leading musicians in this genre, the recordings being funded by a wealthy individual who has started his own label.

i am extremely unhappy with the quality i'm getting, because every detail is compromised in these recordings: the venue, the equipment, the monitoring and just about everything else. but the client is happy and he doesn't want any better.

the artistes however see my point, and a couple of them are ready to back me with money and connections. so i have one chance to suggest a complete change in technology and approach, and it had better work, or else i'm screwed, coz' its not my money but it IS my reputation.

You should sierously look into getting a DSD system. You can track surround material into a DSD system then create SACD's from there. SACD is the current medium of choice in a lot of classical recordings and sounds absolutely incredible. With a system like this you could cause "shock and awe" with everyone involved. You can also create hybrid SACD's with a stereo layer for playing in "normal" cd players so there's no issues with people not having an SACD system.
Just a thought...

[Ted Nightshade]

The trouble with the analog machines is the calibration issues- if it's not set up right, and most of these machines need frequent set-ups and calibration, it won't sound right. Unless you can find someone who does all that really well, you may be outta luck...

What's the Nagra like as far as that goes?

I did not find the Cranesong HEDD converters to be much good for tracking straight to digital. Didn't sound much like the real thing, whereas my tape machine does. Couldn't get the HEDD to do a good job of taking the signal from tape to digital either... things get lost, important things.

Good luck!

[lucey]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
The trouble with the analog machines is the calibration issues- if it's not set up right, and most of these machines need frequent set-ups and calibration, it won't sound right. Unless you can find someone who does all that really well, you may be outta luck...

What's the Nagra like as far as that goes?

I dont own it, a guy in Chicago that records live all the time has used one forever with very little maintenance.

I did not find the Cranesong HEDD converters to be much good for tracking straight to digital. Didn't sound much like the real thing, whereas my tape machine does. Couldn't get the HEDD to do a good job of taking the signal from tape to digital either... things get lost, important things.

Good luck!

the HEDD has a forwardness that is not best for all styles, i'd agree. i love mine yet am looking at other, cleaner AD, to have options

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by lucey


I dont own it, a guy in Chicago that records live all the time has used one forever with very little maintenance.




the HEDD has a forwardness that is not best for all styles, i'd agree. i love mine yet am looking at other, cleaner AD, to have options [/B]

My tape machine is very very stable as far as calibration and that- I don't take it on the road, but it stays put very nicely in house. It's not racked, it moves around a bit. I would very much like to get ahold of a Nagra like that.

And as far as the HEDD, it's not really any kind of forwardness I'm hearing- it's more like a rosy kind of euphonic smear- it's pleasant, for sure, not cold at all- a big advantage- but just not lifelike enough for my acoustic purist type adventures. Hoping the SLAM! I have coming my way will do justice to what's coming off of tape, and maybe- dare I hope?- really sound killer for tracking straight to digital...

[lucey]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade

And as far as the HEDD, it's not really any kind of forwardness I'm hearing- it's more like a rosy kind of euphonic smear- it's pleasant, for sure, not cold at all- a big advantage- but just not lifelike enough for my acoustic purist type adventures. Hoping the SLAM! I have coming my way will do justice to what's coming off of tape, and maybe- dare I hope?- really sound killer for tracking straight to digital...

i know what you mean, i hear forwardness too.

the Slam is supposedly very nice, let us know


i'd like to hear the Pacific Microsonics, the ADC1, the Lavry and the Prism

[DannyDay]

I respectfuly and humbly submit that contrary to popular belief, when properly set-up and operated, analog doesn't introduce "distortion" effects, "compression" effects or any other stereotypical analog-isms. I believe, however, you're right about cost, logistics, etc. The Fearn-HEDD-Computer combo will do great. In fact, the MOTU stuff should be OK, not great, but OK. Yeah, I know what you'll say.. "I want great". Me too.

Don't sweat it, _many_ very fine "minimalistic" recordings have been made with digital gear. Far more important are the players, the skill of the recordist (you), and the room. The room is a _big_ factor. If you have a good room, minimalist techniques work well. In a crappy room, you might need some spot mics etc. Careful with using Blumlein in a crap room as the backside of the patten will suck the room into the recording. Try hypercardioid instead. IME, the worse the room, the more one has to rely on close mics. Regardless, a stereo pair always helps to pull everything together and you may be able to get away with not using cheesey fake 'verbs.

In case you weren't aware, there are a few good stereo books by Eargle, Woram, and "The New Stereo Handbook" by Ron Streicher and Alton Everest. Lots of good stereo info on the Josephson (http://www.josephson.com)website under links.

IMHO you're most certainly on the right track. It's challenging but great fun. Good luck!

DD.

[Ted Nightshade]

Agreed, analog can be awful awful clean, in a good way.

When I need it most is with vocals... for instrumental music, I think you could do alright with really fine digital.

[Tim Halligan]

Hey Audiothings, that sounds like a cool and interesting project.
My business partner has a Nagra IV-S which is a truly amzing piece of audio equipment...7 1/2 or 15 IPS, selectable NAB/CCIR or Nagra Master. It is a very robust and reliable piece of kit...it's 18 years old and we still use it regularly on location. There is a timecode option should you wish to syncronise with other gear...or record dialogue for film/TV.
Some years ago, we tried it with the Bryston Dolby SR kit...truly stunning. We didn't buy it at the time - too expensive - but the sound...crystal. We are kicking ourselves now!
As far as maintenance, we send it to a specialist every 18-24 months, and he tweaks the alignment back to spec...and his reports indicate just sub-degree movements. Remember, these machines are designed to be used in the harshest conditions, and treated with a degree of rough handling (airport baggage handlers etc), and in the 15 years that I have been using it, the worst that has happened is a blown fuse. In that same time we've gone through 4 DAT machines.
This machine has paid for itself many times over...I doubt our current digital gear will be around long enough for us to say the same...and we don't get locked in the new software version vs. operating system conflict war. We also don't need external pre's, converters, clocks, esoteric cabling, and other "klingons" that can make a simple process mind-bogglingly difficult.
If you look after quality analogue equipment, there is no reason why it shouldn't last 25 years...and still deliver the goods.

Good luck

Cheers,
Tim

[audiothings]

thanks very much, people.

can anybody rate the pres on the nagra. how much gain do they provide and do they have phantom power...?

how much can a stereo nagra be bought for these days, and where?

thanks,

self.

[lucey]

Originally posted by audiothings
thanks very much, people.

can anybody rate the pres on the nagra. how much gain do they provide and do they have phantom power...?

how much can a stereo nagra be bought for these days, and where?

thanks,

self.

keep in mind you need a good room

i have not heard the pres in any shoot out way, all i know is that the recordings straight to Nagra sound terrific with 414eb's, and there are plenty of other mic options

of course exact matching is key

[Tim Halligan]

Yes, the Nagra has phantom power, and T power, and two settings for dynamics. Being brutally honest, the pre's are a bit noisy with extremely quiet sources...and the gain cranked. It does take line inputs if you want to use external pre's.
As far as matching, the inputs can be ganged...even if one input's gain is set differently to the other.
Availability...hmmm...good question, as - like most other gear manufacturers - Nagra have concentrated more on the digital side. The IV-S is still being produced(I believe), but you would need to check the website, or the "local" dealer. In your case, that might be Australia or Japan. It could even be home-base in Switzerland.

Cheers,
Tim

Oops...PS:
If you are not completely convinced by the whole analogue thing...Nagra do a few interesting digital devices. The ones which may be up your alley would be the Nagra D, or the Nagra V. The V is almost a direct replacement for the IV-S (I think the body shell is the same/similar size)...stereo hard disc. The D is a monster in comparison...4 tracks @ 48k, 2 @ 96, 1 @ 192. This beast is an open-reel digital recorder built like a tank (typical Nagra!), yet still portable...you just wouldn't sling it over your shoulder like the IV-S/V.

[Ted Nightshade]

I'll take a look- it sounds like a IV-S could be a fine thing to have on hand...
Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by Tim Halligan
Yes, the Nagra has phantom power, and T power, and two settings for dynamics. Being brutally honest, the pre's are a bit noisy with extremely quiet sources...and the gain cranked. It does take line inputs if you want to use external pre's.
As far as matching, the inputs can be ganged...even if one input's gain is set differently to the other.
Availability...hmmm...good question, as - like most other gear manufacturers - Nagra have concentrated more on the digital side. The IV-S is still being produced(I believe), but you would need to check the website, or the "local" dealer. In your case, that might be Australia or Japan. It could even be home-base in Switzerland.

Cheers,
Tim

Oops...PS:
If you are not completely convinced by the whole analogue thing...Nagra do a few interesting digital devices. The ones which may be up your alley would be the Nagra D, or the Nagra V. The V is almost a direct replacement for the IV-S (I think the body shell is the same/similar size)...stereo hard disc. The D is a monster in comparison...4 tracks @ 48k, 2 @ 96, 1 @ 192. This beast is an open-reel digital recorder built like a tank (typical Nagra!), yet still portable...you just wouldn't sling it over your shoulder like the IV-S/V.