JBL LSR4300 monitors with the Room Mode Correction : solution for non-treated room ?

[sergioelectro]

Hello,

After reading lots of threads here from fellow sluts , I have to admit and consider that not only the speakers can be important , but also and especially the room treatment.

But that room treatment isn't an easy thing , and for some of us, can be impossible .

So I discover an article talking about the new JBL LSR4300 Studio Monitors featuring RMC™ Room Mode Correction, JBL's new exclusive technology that automatically analyzes and corrects the response of each speaker in the room for absolute accuracy at the mix position.

I would like to know if those can be a solution for those who can not treat a room , if it can be a good substitute solution.

I would like to have your point of view and experience.

Thanks

Sergio

[bexarametric]

They will help (especially in the lows) an untreated room. They are not the answer though. In addition to getting the JBL monitors, you still need to get treatment. They are not going to eliminate standing waves. They are not going to diffuse in certain parts of the room. Only acoustic treatment can do that.

[mixerguy]

if there is phase distortion caused by sound waves adding or subtracting, at different places in the room (and there will always be SOME of this, in any room).... the speaker can NOT fix this.

don't believe the hype.

[willerichey]

I have these monitors.

Used RMC in my old apartment with no treatment

Used RMC in my new house with acoustically treated room

Major difference in sound of monitors and my mixes

Same ears
Same monitors
Same mics and pre's

Only variations in this equation? The room and the addition of acoustical treatments

RMC like other EQ correction does help in clarity, but is in now way a substitute for an acoustically treated room.

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by sergioelectro

Hello,

After reading lots of threads here from fellow sluts , I have to admit and consider that not only the speakers can be important , but also and especially the room treatment.

But that room treatment isn't an easy thing , and for some of us, can be impossible .

So I discover an article talking about the new JBL LSR4300 Studio Monitors featuring RMC™ Room Mode Correction, JBL's new exclusive technology that automatically analyzes and corrects the response of each speaker in the room for absolute accuracy at the mix position.

I would like to know if those can be a solution for those who can not treat a room , if it can be a good substitute solution.

I would like to have your point of view and experience.

Thanks

Sergio

the RMC works pretty well It will make your life a little easier

[A27Hull]

I recently got a pair of 4326's,

They're good for piece-o-mind, but I with others here suggest at least some sort of treatment.

Edit: Remember that the 4300 RMC system is only working on low frequencies. If your room is bare sheet-rock, expect little or no help from the RMC on problems like upper-mid and high freq reflection ringing/slap echo.

[ThrillHo]

I have a pair as well. I also have rock wool 4" panels in my room. Before I treated my room, the RMC made a huge difference. After treatment, it's subtle, but it cleans up the bass, which I find the hardest to mix in a bedroom environment.

Definitely no substitute for treatment, especially if you track in the same room you mix.

[Alex Niedt]

As others have said...they're fantastic, but PLEASE work w/ your room, as well. There's no way around it. No shortcut. And you will not regret it.

[SoundWeavers]

RMC can compensate for the room but it's not a cure all, you'll need to remind yourself that what you are listening to is compenstated (EQ'd). It's a good solution for mobile environments where you just don't know what to expect. But if you are using it in a permanent location - you have to treat your room, even by just putting up basic bass traps.

HTH

[Ethan Winer]

Sergio,

Originally Posted by sergioelectro

I would like to know if those can be a solution for those who can not treat a room , if it can be a good substitute solution.

No, it's basically marketing hype, intended to appeal to people who want to avoid treating their room properly. (Why do so many people love buying gear, as long as that gear is not bass traps?)

There are three main problems when reproducing low frequencies in small rooms through loudspeakers:

* Peaks, where the reflections from the walls, floor, and ceiling arrive at your ears more or less in phase with the direct sound from the speaker(s).

* Nulls, also caused by reflections, but arriving out of phase.

* Modal ringing, which sustains some, but not all, bass notes even after the bass player stops the strings.

Active EQ like in the JBL speakers can only help with peaks, and even that is only a partial solution. If you measure the response in your room with a microphone, then move the microphone even six inches, the response measured will now be very different. So any "correction" applied by EQ will not help as much for the person sitting next to you. It can't even fix the response for both of your ears at the same time. The EQ is also sure to make the response worse somewhere else in the room, possibly even as close as a few feet away.

This is not to say that reducing peaks with EQ is of no value, but it is not the "total solution" the marketing hype would have you believe. Contrast that to bass traps and other room treatment which always improve peaks, nulls, and ringing at all locations in the room.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Why do so many people love buying gear, as long as that gear is not bass traps?

LOL, I just figured out the solution - rack mountable bass traps!

--Ethan

[bamm]

great stuff Ethan!

Put some knobs and meters on them and you've got a hit.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

LOL, I just figured out the solution - rack mountable bass traps!

--Ethan

With a on and off switch that lights up. Hell put a cord in the damn thing.

Plug a play baby, plug and play..

Glenn

[diamondjim]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

LOL, I just figured out the solution - rack mountable bass traps!

--Ethan

Yeah, Ethan, then add some tubes and you will have a real hot product!

diamondjim
Barn Jazz Home

[dacart]

I own the 4328s and regardless of the naysayers the RMC DOES work. That being said it is, of course, not a cure all but in conjunction with acoustic treatment does very nicely.

Oh and they happen to sound awfully good as well.

Dan Carter

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by dacart

I own the 4328s and regardless of the naysayers the RMC DOES work. That being said it is, of course, not a cure all but in conjunction with acoustic treatment does very nicely.

Oh and they happen to sound awfully good as well.

Dan Carter

agreed..it really cleaned up my mix position

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by dacart

regardless of the naysayers the RMC DOES work.

I'm sure I came off as a "naysayer," but hopefully I was able to make clear what RMC can and cannot do. If the ads stated, "Our RMC helps a little, but you still need bass traps if you expect accurate monitoring" I'd have no complaints. But they don't say that. Rather, they claim to "correct the problems in all rooms" or something close to that. (Sorry, I don't have one of their ads handy.)

See this for more on what DSP can and cannot do:

RealTraps - Audyssey Room EQ

Again, I agree that EQ can help somewhat if it's applied carefully and in moderation, and not used above maybe 80 Hz. Above the low-bass range EQ always does more harm than good. At least in domestic size rooms.

--Ethan

[cornutt]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

LOL, I just figured out the solution - rack mountable bass traps!

I'm waiting for the Behringer ones.

[willerichey]

Originally Posted by cornutt

I'm waiting for the Behringer ones.

Than you might have to wait for another company to design and manufacter them first.

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I'm sure I came off as a "naysayer," but hopefully I was able to make clear what RMC can and cannot do. If the ads stated, "Our RMC helps a little, but you still need bass traps if you expect accurate monitoring" I'd have no complaints. But they don't say that. Rather, they claim to "correct the problems in all rooms" or something close to that. (Sorry, I don't have one of their ads handy.)

See this for more on what DSP can and cannot do:

RealTraps - Audyssey Room EQ

Again, I agree that EQ can help somewhat if it's applied carefully and in moderation, and not used above maybe 80 Hz. Above the low-bass range EQ always does more harm than good. At least in domestic size rooms.

--Ethan

Ethan have you actually used the speaker at hand?

[Energie]

With the RMC or not, the JBL monitors are a nice and decent monitoring system. It may help if you have excessive bass in your mix position.

[rimskidog]

Ethan have you actually used the speaker at hand?

Dude, he is not talking in the subjective realm but the objective scientific one. If these things cleaned up your sound to a significant degree it's because the others weren't present in your room at your mix position. Whether they are a sweet monitor or not they can't fix all the things that it is suggested they can fix. That is his point.

[melodic_disaster]

this is eq vs. room treatment.

the world makes new gimmicks for old solutions, i'm surprised they haven't coined it "pro audio 2.0"

eq obviously works with the right measurement and algorithms, but it could never overcome a bad room. how do you know how bad a room you have?

answer: its not by buying monitors.

if your room is tuned, then fine - if not, you're shooting in the dark.

the real challenge is once your room is tuned....its you and your ears vs the competition

most of the time if you dont have this you will not be a contender.

what i have come to experience is that some people have such poor lisening environments they would be better off with headphones.

major labels not usually calling for the headphone mixers...

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by superburtm

Ethan have you actually used the speaker at hand?

Not "used" as in did an entire mix with them, but I've certainly heard them and they're fine speakers. Below is part of a post I made a few minutes ago in a different forum (for audiophiles).

--Ethan

Earlier this year I was invited to speak about acoustics at the NARAS division of the Grammys, which was held at the Hit Factory / Criteria studios in North Miami. They set up three pairs of speakers in a lounge room typical of the size people use for home studios. The audience auditioned all three speakers with and without acoustic treatment, using the same music repeatedly. (I had brought one of our Standard Room Kits.) We also played the JBLs with and without RMC engaged. I forget some of the exact speaker model numbers, but one was a pair of JBL's LSR series, another was a pair of Genelecs, and the third was Yamaha NS-10s. Besides myself and the audience, there were four high-profile engineers there including Charles Dye and Eric Schilling who mixed all of Gloria Estefan's big hits from years past. At dinner afterward all four professional engineers said they thought the JBL speakers were "okay," but only when the EQ was disabled.

[moonpi]

I purchased the JBL LSR4362 Package a few months ago and have found them to be a nice set of monitors that are a good bang for the buck. For my use though, they just don't compare to a pair of Genelec 8040's or a pair of 8050's.

As for the RMC system... Like others have said before me, it is basically good only for the low frequencies. I have never seen it do anything for the high frequencies. It certainly DOES NOT FIX nor REPLACE proper acoustical design and treatment. And in my experience, acoustic treatments can "treat" a problem that arises from improper (or general lack of) design. But the best route is to go (if you can) is to start with the design and construction of the room, then add your acoustic treatments. THEN, I feel like the LSR's will make a good situation better. Otherwise, you are approximating... which in monitoring is NEVER a reliable way to go.

I cannot speak for any other room treatment system aside from the Driverack PA in live situations and I've never had that work where I said, "Shizam! That worked!" I always had to go back and adjust (sometimes radically) to taste). It's still a great piece of gear that, when calibrated using a SMAART system, can really do some great stuff for the common live situation. I bring up the live scenario because it's the segment of our industry that relies heavily upon DSP correction. But I think that any of us who have been to see live shows in certain rooms that we'll agree on one thing: some rooms just can't be cured no matter what system is being used and who is using it. They can be made to sound better, but sometimes not even to the level of enjoyable. And trust me, some rooms that we'll try to mix tracks in that are not really designed with acoustics in mind, WILL drive you crazy... literally.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone used Genelec's 8240 or 8250 monitors with the AutoCal system? From a quick glance at the pretty pictures they have on their site, it appears to make adjustments throughout the spectrum as opposed to just the lows and appears to be a much more comprehensive system than what is commonly found out there in the wild. Don't worry - I'm still going to stand by the old "DSP can't cure a room" position. Nothing in my experience suggests anything to the contrary. I'm just looking for a system that will actually make a good situation a whole lot better across the spectrum. Given my history with Genelec, I'd be inclined to think they would be the ones to do it.

[davet]

No, it's not the answer. I have 4326s in my room and I still have standing wav issues. Spend the money fixing the room first, then buy whatever monitors work for you.

I do like the features/sound of 4326s.
DaveT

[clownjuggles]

Originally Posted by moonpi

Just out of curiosity, has anyone used Genelec's 8240 or 8250 monitors with the AutoCal system? From a quick glance at the pretty pictures they have on their site, it appears to make adjustments throughout the spectrum as opposed to just the lows and appears to be a much more comprehensive system than what is commonly found out there in the wild. Don't worry - I'm still going to stand by the old "DSP can't cure a room" position. Nothing in my experience suggests anything to the contrary. I'm just looking for a system that will actually make a good situation a whole lot better across the spectrum. Given my history with Genelec, I'd be inclined to think they would be the ones to do it.

I have owned the Genelec 8240's for a little over a year now and they are a fine speaker/Monitor. The DSP does a very nice job light years past what the JBL is capable of in my humble opinion. YMMV. A room/space that is treated will sound unbelievable in the difference.

The best thing to do is get your room as close as you can with traditional methods and let the genelecs bring you the rest of the way.

[eclectic]

A friend of mine recently bought a set of these for video work. The RNC mode did a -12db 8Q dip at 120??? I thought they sounded "ok".

[Shostakovich]

Originally Posted by willerichey

Than you might have to wait for another company to design and manufacter them first.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[BlueSprocket]

Originally Posted by eclectic

A friend of mine recently bought a set of these for video work. The RNC mode did a -12db 8Q dip at 120??? I thought they sounded "ok".

Oddly enough, I have a good friends who mixes on the LSR4300s. He has the 6's. His too cut about 8db @ approx 120. And thats it. The monitors do sound decent. I preferred the 8" versions when I got to listen to those, but don't find myself running to the shop to pick up a pair either.

To continue beating the horse, absolutely nothing will make up for a badly treated room. The only thing that will help, is mixing at super low volumes. But if you want to mix at any volume (and I'm not saying loud), treatment it key. Plenty of economical products out there to help fix your room issues, and plenty of information available, here and elsewhere on the net, to DIY if you are so inclined.