Full range monitors without crossover?

[marcan]

I'm kind a fed up with monitors. My main issue is the phase distortion induced by cross over required for multi way monitors. Except auratone, avantone or electrostatic, I have never found a monitor that didn't present this kind of problems…
Unfortunately auratone/avantone aren't really full range (lows and highs are rolled off). I know that multi way loudspeakers are more efficient and can handle a higher power. However:
1. Am I alone to have the same issue?
2. Do you know a full range monitor without cross over?
3. Nowadays, is it still impossible to make one speaker with a frequency response from 30 to 20,000 hz?
4. If it's possible to make it, the power issue can easily be solved with several full range in each monitor (without cross)?

Thx

[ddageek]

Full range single driver ! would be ideal but the problem has always been that the frequency extremes each require a different things of a driver ! close as you can come are some elecrostatics !

[PRobb]

It's a problem of physics. One driver can't do full range, multi driver requires a crossover. To me, that's why it's necessary to have full range speakers AND auratones.

[marcan]

Originally Posted by PRobb

It's a problem of physics. One driver can't do full range, multi driver requires a crossover. To me, that's why it's necessary to have full range speakers AND auratones.

In 2007 it's still impossible to have consistency AND full range at the same time...

Headphones are full range tho...

[Jim Williams]

These are made and are commonly available. They are called headphones.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[marcan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

These are made and are commonly available. They are called headphones.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I guess we told it at the same time

However our perception is not full range with our ears, we also need the physical perception from the body...

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by marcan

1. Am I alone to have the same issue?
2. Do you know a full range monitor without cross over?
3. Nowadays, is it still impossible to make one speaker with a frequency response from 30 to 20,000 hz?
4. If it's possible to make it, the power issue can easily be solved with several full range in each monitor (of course without cross)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Thx

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

You have been listening to too many cheap nearfields that have bass reflex openings that boost the bass, but suffer from poor response times and cross-over distortion.

Try listening to a set of active M&Ks.

[marcan]

Originally Posted by The Byre

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

You have been listening to too many cheap nearfields that have bass reflex openings that boost the bass, but suffer from poor response times and cross-over distortion.

Yes

Originally Posted by The Byre

Try listening to a set of active M&Ks.

...yes but how M&K solved the problem?

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by marcan

I guess we told it at the same time

However our perception is not full range with our ears, we also need the physical perception from the body...

That's why you should sit on your subwoofer when listening with cans...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[marcan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

That's why you should sit on your subwoofer when listening with cans...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

No kidding I have already done it but I did have a phase problem....

[erosconpollo]

Lowther speakers are supposedly full-range. Very pricey, however.

[Bob Ross]

check out this thread:

Zu Audio Druid Speakers -- Long Review

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by marcan

I'm kind a fed up with monitors. My main issue is the phase distortion induce by cross over required for multi way monitors.

You are singing my song. That is exactly what motivated me to check out the Zu Druid speakers. I ended up selling my PMCs and buying two pairs of Druids. The FRD run ~40 Hz to 12 kHz. No crossover, has a supertweeter with HPF RC network that comes in at 12K. I'm using them for mixing and mastering, as well as in the hi-fi listening room, they are really unique.

There will be plenty of 'cannot be possible' statements coming now, from folks who have not actually used them. My advice is to listen and mix/master for yourself and see what comes out. 60 day money back trial period.

Do a search here, I've posted about them a few times recently. And there are several reviews on the net as well.

Steve


edit I see Bob already pointed to one!

[Brent Hahn]

I made my own. They're essentially Auratones but made with better drivers (Fostex FE103 4") and Thiele-Small math. Approx. 12"h X 5" w X 9" d, with the drivers at ear height. Flat down to 105hz or so. I love them.

Coincidentally, there's a guy selling a pair of something very similar on eBay, but with the slightly larger FE126's. Search eBay for "full range driver." Can't really tell about the science that went into the cabinets, but they look pretty right. Classic examples of that home-made "Proud-to-be-Plywood" school, too.

Once I get past the current work crunch (and once I clear the crap off the table saw) I'm gonna make a bigger pair with 6" Fostex FF165's, which will play louder without complaining and -- theoretically -- be flat down to the high 60's or so. Can't wait.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by marcan

My main issue is the phase distortion induced by cross over required for multi way monitors.

Just to clarify, phase shift - which is not distortion! - is benign in usual amounts. The only time phase shift is an issue is when two sources arrive at the same time, and there's a phase shift or time difference in their arrivals. Yes, this happens with multi-way drivers at frequencies around the crossover point. But the audible damage is the resulting frequency response error, not the phase shift itself.

--Ethan

[tINY]

Higher order cross-overs with delay compensation can help too. But it's hard to tell.

The NHT Xd system was very clean and impressive.....

A lot of people think that their audio problems can be solved by buying new gear - like magical full-range single driver speakers. But, I have listened and mixed in very few rooms where the acoustics were good enough to hear anything but gross phase problems in cross-over designs....

But at least we are talking speakers and not DACs........




-tINY

[marcan]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Just to clarify, phase shift - which is not distortion! - is benign in usual amounts. The only time phase shift is an issue is when two sources arrive at the same time, and there's a phase shift or time difference in their arrivals. Yes, this happens with multi-way drivers at frequencies around the crossover point. But the audible damage is the resulting frequency response error, not the phase shift itself.

--Ethan

You are right Ethan (as always but I do ear incoherence around the crossover point and the intersection isn't small…<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[marcan]

Originally Posted by tINY

Higher order cross-overs with delay compensation can help too. But it's hard to tell.

The NHT Xd system was very clean and impressive.....

A lot of people think that their audio problems can be solved by buying new gear - like magical full-range single driver speakers. But, I have listened and mixed in very few rooms where the acoustics were good enough to hear anything but gross phase problems in cross-over designs....

But at least we are talking speakers and not DACs........




-tINY

Indeed, speakers is for me the weakest link in the chain...

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by marcan

Indeed, speakers is for me the weakest link in the chain...

A pair of Stax electostatic headphones will solve that problem, permanently.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Liverfluke]

Loudspeaker Audio Driver Units The Best in the World

[marcan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

A pair of Stax electostatic headphones will solve that problem, permanently.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I've listen to it few times. Wonderful<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype>. What I really appreciate with electrostatic is the realism of transient...something you can't get thru electrodynamics...<o:p></o:p>
However, I don't get the physical relation (with the headphones) and I don't see mixing all way down with it...<o:p></o:p>

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by marcan

You are right Ethan (as always but I do ear incoherence around the crossover point

"Incoherence" is not a technical term, and so doesn't really say anything other than it sounds wrong to you somehow. My best guess is you're hearing a skewed response, or speaker lobing, or early reflection room problems, or some other anomaly. But I promise you are not hearing phase shift.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by marcan

Indeed, speakers is for me the weakest link in the chain...

Actually, the room is usually the weakest link in the chain unless you have truly lame speakers. Even modest price speakers are reasonably flat throughout most of their range. Contrast that to a typical domestic size room that has numerous peaks and valleys spanning 30 dB and often even more. Any company selling a speaker that bad would be laughed out of business. Unless they're selling to audiophiles.

--Ethan

[tsvisser]

I feel your pain. I think that phase performance is often times glossed over - for frankly many people are not sensitive to it or do not listen to material that makes phase performance a big issue.

One speaker manufacturer that I like a lot is Thiel. The main phase shift anomalies happen when mid or steep crossover circuits are used to get a highly controlled performance characteristic from a frequency response standpoint. What Thiel does that is not totally unique to Thiel, but unusual, is they rely on mechanical roll off of the driver itself and use low order crossover circuits. I find that this helps a lot.

No such thing as a perfect speaker. We all can find fault in even the most expensive speaker - it just comes down to where you want to sacrifice your standards. For most of us that sacrifice comes down to available funds before we even hit the performance ceiling.

[marcan]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Actually, the room is usually the weakest link in the chain unless you have truly lame speakers. Even modest price speakers are reasonably flat throughout most of their range. Contrast that to a typical domestic size room that has numerous peaks and valleys spanning 30 dB and often even more. Any company selling a speaker that bad would be laughed out of business. Unless they're selling to audiophiles.

--Ethan

You are right (one more time ), acoustic is the poor child of the audio reproduction.

Anyway back to the main track, is it not possible to have one simple and consistent way to get our music (and mixes) from top to bottom???

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by marcan

is it not possible to have one simple and consistent way to get our music (and mixes) from top to bottom???

Yes, but NASA would have to build it and the cost would be in the millions.

Seriously, a single driver could probably be designed to do this. I envision a huge automobile piston, at least a foot in diameter, and able to move several inches back and forth 20,000 times per second with high linearity.

--Ethan

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by marcan

You are right (one more time ), acoustic is the poor child of the audio reproduction.

Anyway back to the main track, is it not possible to have one simple and consistent way to get our music (and mixes) from top to bottom???

Yes, read my previous post. They are called headphones. They have no crossovers. They have no inductors. They have no phase shift. They do 20 to 20k. They remove room acoustics. They can solve problems. They cost less than speakers. A pair of electrostatics can be had for under a grand.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[marcan]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

I feel your pain. I think that phase performance is often times glossed over - for frankly many people are not sensitive to it or do not listen to material that makes phase performance a big issue.

One speaker manufacturer that I like a lot is Thiel. The main phase shift anomalies happen when mid or steep crossover circuits are used to get a highly controlled performance characteristic from a frequency response standpoint. What Thiel does that is not totally unique to Thiel, but unusual, is they rely on mechanical roll off of the driver itself and use low order crossover circuits. I find that this helps a lot.

No such thing as a perfect speaker. We all can find fault in even the most expensive speaker - it just comes down to where you want to sacrifice your standards. For most of us that sacrifice comes down to available funds before we even hit the performance ceiling.

I'm not in the financial position to evaluate my sacrifice very fare, but sure one day it will happen.

[marcan]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yes, but NASA would have to build it and the cost would be in the millions.

Seriously, a single driver could probably be designed to do this. I envision a huge automobile piston, at least a foot in diameter, and able to move several inches back and forth 20,000 times per second with high linearity.

--Ethan

Ethan, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? I would like to hear you are working hard on it

[tINY]

Originally Posted by marcan

You are right (one more time ), acoustic is the poor child of the audio reproduction.

Anyway back to the main track, is it not possible to have one simple and consistent way to get our music (and mixes) from top to bottom???

You have to get out of the smaller rooms. Think big! (like 40x60 feet with sloped ceilings at 12+ feet).




-tINY