Trying to make Kick loud without clipping

[DarkEcho]

Anyone got any ideas? The kick sounds good about 4db louder than everything else in the mix but I lose my headroom with it like that.. is there any way to give the appearance of volume while letting the kick still sit in the mix and not clip?

[swisha31]

add some compression??

[Methlab]

Use a limiter.

[Andreas G]

... or make everything else quiter

[Ice]

Have you filtered out the sub-low that's eating up your head room? You can high pass at 30-40hz and keep the thump while cutting the information that'll be pumping your compressors.

Also, as stated before, you can crush it with a limiter or hack the peaks with a clipper.

[ryangeller]

Sounds like an EQ thing. Try to bring out stuff around 5k for the clicky attack. It'll act as a flashlight pointing down to the fundemental so that it doesn't have to be so loud in the mix. Your ear/mind will hear the upper partials and fill in the other information (same way you can hear kick or bass on tiny little computer monitors). Also, gating can help create space so that less things conflict on hte downbeats etc.

[rcm]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

... or make everything else quiter

+1

If you are running out of headroom it means that you are doing poor gain staging.

There are also some compression and EQ tricks to give the kick a perceived sense of being louder.

[Rappy]

I agree with using proper EQ, gating, and gain staging to give the kick impact and space inthe mix without turning up the fader so loud that it is slamming the VU into the red.

In addition, I would add to this list that you should use parallel compression (especially if it is a modern rock song with aggressive tones). Copy the kick drum track so that you have one kick that is sounding sweet and natural. On the other kick, absolutely slam it with compression so that it is squashed and pumping. Even try putting an amp simulator on it and distorting it. Then blend this track into the mix below the other kick track. It will make the perceived loudness of the kick much greater without actually adding much VU.

Also, another consideration is your monitoring. Is your monitoring environment bass shy, which means you have to turn the kick way up to hear it properly in the mix?

Peace,
Rappy

[egan]

Originally Posted by rcm

+1
There are also some compression and EQ tricks to give the kick a perceived sense of being louder.

care to elaborate?

[andychamp]

a) parallel compression
b) EQ. Carve room for your other instruments into/around your kick. All you need from it is a timing reference, so some attack (and a bit of chest-thumping lows for the big speakers) will do and you won't need to run it 4 dB above everything else.
c) avoid sonic competition with other elements

[soupking]

This is a total guess, but maybe changing the texture, or depth of the signal will make it more profound without making it 'louder'.

Like maybe sharpen the attack somehow or play with positioning.

[Fretbored]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

... or make everything else quiter

+2

[DarkEcho]

Hmm, does gain staging apply when everything you do is via VSTs and digital instruments?

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Hmm, does gain staging apply when everything you do is via VSTs and digital instruments?

Of course..it applies in every mix. Just because you are not tracking in does not mean that you are not using plugins to mix with....which can be overloaded or underpowered, causing potential issues.

I mentioned the limiter because I assumed you were gainstaging properly already.

[Todd24]

Originally Posted by soupking

This is a total guess, but maybe changing the texture, or depth of the signal will make it more profound without making it 'louder'.

Like maybe sharpen the attack somehow or play with positioning.

Yup.

EQ the low end up a bit. HPF the sub lows(as mentioned above) find the beater with an EQ and give it a little boost. Compress with slowish attack. Use a Transient designer plug to kick up the attack. Put a limiter at the end of the chain to keep it at just the right level (do not squash, just limit)

I find it really helps to adjust the kick at lower volume. It will only get louder as you turn up the volume from there.

[DarkEcho]

how do you ensure proper gain staging via digital devices?

[Kyle S]

usually if my kick peaks at -6 after all of my plugins and shit then its usually gonan be easy to seat. i start my mixes with the kick and kinda here & there build around it.

good kick starts with a good track though, if you want that girth and splintered wood sound, it has to be there before hand or resort to samples. ive found that you can save 10000000 hours at mixing if you spend another 20 minutes at tracking.

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

how do you ensure proper gain staging via digital devices?

Try to leave a lot of headroom. The loudest elements peaks around -12dB or so in my mixes. Sounds much smoother and clearer to me (kinda analog) :-)

[Cujo]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

... or make everything else quiter

[RainbowStorm]

- Build a kick drum tunnell
- Use a dynamic microphone when close miking if you don't have a very good condenser mic
- Use several mics
- Practise ducking techniques

[heathen]

Parallel comp and some eq could get it thumping.

[Alex Niedt]

Bunch of possibilities...

Start w/ a great kick, parallel comp, any combination of comp & EQ, clipping (I know you said without, but...) up to the point where you can hear it (should be a few dB's...of course this depends on the quality of your kick), etc.

[syra]

Mult the kick to a track where you completely eliminate any attack. Have only the decay of the kickdrum. Add it to the original. Done.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

... or make everything else quiter

.

[Pfhuck]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Anyone got any ideas? The kick sounds good about 4db louder than everything else in the mix but I lose my headroom with it like that.. is there any way to give the appearance of volume while letting the kick still sit in the mix and not clip?

Lots of "invisible" variables in a question like that.

IMPOSSIBLE to give any sort of REAL advice in this situation...

Ya gotta MIX the kick with the rest of your MIX!

All the above suggestions are valid.




If I may be so bold as to summarize:

MULT - HPF - DISTORTO/COMPRESS - EQ - BLEND (margarita's!)

Laters,
Pfhuck

[bing81]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Try to leave a lot of headroom. The loudest elements peaks around -12dB or so in my mixes. Sounds much smoother and clearer to me (kinda analog) :-)

Shhh .. don't let everyone know.

B

[gurubuzz]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

... or make everything else quiter

+4

That's right and start your mix with the kick at the desired level and then bring everything else up...slowly. Your kick then will only be comp/limm by your Bus comp.

[DarkEcho]

Andreas, you said that your stuff peaks at -12, you mean thats the highest any one instrument's level ever gets? do you limit them to -12 or just alter the level so that -12 is the max it ever gets?

Also, I thought gain staging had to do with the levels of different peices of equipment going in and out of eachother, for instance, wouldnt proper gain staging for a drum sampler and a DAW be your sampler loud enough to where its not in the red, and then whatever level you want in your DAW, where as improper gain staging would be having the volume too low in your sampler but turning it up really high in your DAW to compensate? Maybe I am confused about what gain staging is.

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Try to leave a lot of headroom. The loudest elements peaks around -12dB or so in my mixes. Sounds much smoother and clearer to me (kinda analog) :-)

I track in peaking around this level. I have not mixed this low though...I usually mix louder...I may try what you are doing though...any hints on how you get it loud after? I mean we all know mastering is the way, but I have heard MEs say .."you want a loud song? Mix it loud"....So I'm interested in what you do in that area.

[Daddy No]

All of the above of course and mainly those. If you are using a compressor either on the kick, the drum bus or the 2 bus try it with shortest release and playing around with the attack length, sometimes there is a setting where the kicks just burst through. & as others have said there is often a 'knock' you can find with eq.

A couple of other suggestions that might help if used subtly (or unsubtly if you are making hiphop or techno or similar);
- use a bitrate reducer plug-in (below about 14 bits you get 'crunch' which can actually really help kicks and snares despite the obsession with digital clarity)
- distortion; eg a fuzz box type pedal, distortion plug in,
- or just turning up the channel input on an analogue mixer or in fact any piece of analogue gear til its just clipping and pulling back on the fader/volume control.

I've not tried this for this purpose but it might work
- oxford inflator, increases subjective loudness/adds overtones/does something

Speaking of magic I think some boxes just 'get' kicks. My favourite is the ISA131.

I knew one house music producer who had a crossover from a PA system that when he ran tracks through it turned kicks into little grenades. It was probably broken but it certainly *worked*.

All basic stuff which you probably knew already, just thought it should be included & anyway things are a bit slow this afternoon

:J