Pro tools session for the client

[JGILL]

Ok I got a question for the slutz...I have this client that wants my Pro tools session with all the mixing on it. What do you guys do? I was working for the records producer and I guess him and the artist had a fall out of some sort. I have not meet the artist just the producer. They paid me the agreed amount so that isn't an issue but I don't usuaully give back the Pro tools session. If I do is a stripped version with nothing and everything at unity. So what should I do cause the producer is pressing to give everything and I am just alittle unsure?

[Tony Shepperd]

My policy is unless you pay my full rate, you don't get the full session.

I had a situation last year where the artist took one of my mixes and consolidated the unmixed songs and imported them into my mixes so he could use all the reverbs delay and setting from my mix.

There are far to many unscrupulous people out there who want to piggy-back off of what you have done for them.

[Stoneface]

If he paid you then give him the session. What do you mean you give it to him a stripped version with all faders at unity? Sounds like bad business to me. Give him what he paid for and change your policy.

My $0.02

[Irish]

Haven't run into that situation myself but several engineers I've worked with have. Most of them see the mix session (i.e. plug-in's, settings, routing, automation, etc.) as intellectual property. If you signed a work for hire agreement it belongs to the holder of the contract, otherwise it is your work. I consistantly see stripped down sessions with consolidated regions, no plugs, no automation, etc. given to clients.

They paid for the mix. Not the recipe. Just like a restaurant, you get the product not the process.

-Irish

[MarkRB]

If you'd of worked for labels before protools the recall sheets weren't yours they belonged to whoever paid the bills.

If you really think 1 great mix is gonna get turned into a template for awesome mixes everytime then we're all out of a job.

Give it all up and let them see how damn hard you worked.

[s.d.finley]

I mean, is this producer guy going to figure out all your methods/tricks/knowledge from 1 session?

I can see Tony's point, if the producer "recycles" all your setting FX routing and what not. Then thats problematic. Cheap bastard!

Back in the day, would one give up the master reels and the session recall sheets?

I realize todays methods are much simpler for recalling.

I give my clients PT back ups. Copies of the mixed sessions.
Do you think you might work with this producer again?

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

Back in the day, would one give up the master reels and the session recall sheets?

Yep.

It's the "done" thing. I do very occasionally get asked to make the vocal on "some guys" mix a little bit louder but can't get the PT session out of the ME so I have to remix the track, voila, easy mix credit for me.

Trust me, it's easier, and better for you to "show your working".

[Irish]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

If you'd of worked for labels before protools the recall sheets weren't yours they belonged to whoever paid the bills.

If you really think 1 great mix is gonna get turned into a template for awesome mixes everytime then we're all out of a job.

Give it all up and let them see how damn hard you worked.

I tend to agree with MarkRB on this one. The examples I made previously are the typical arguments I hear from engineers I've worked with. My opinion is that a work for hire agreement is implied when you are hired by client/producer to work on a project. If you want to work with this client again in the future give them what they want. It's not uncommon to send a session that is partially mixed or nearly done off for the never ending "one more overdub session" and then it comes back again. Keep your clients happy and they keep you employed.
-Irish

[colinmiller]

Of all the mixes I have done, I have never had anyone pay me for the PT session settings. And somehow I don't think that the record label owns TLA,CLA, Clearmountain's recall sheets, etc. But in those cases it's not much of a big deal since it requires having the studio and equipment to get the mix and change it. For the people working ITB, their intellectual property is saved with it, and that's not something the label is paying for.

Unless something is contractual, they are paying for the mixing service and studio time/materials. For some reason when I go to restaurant they never give me the recipe when I pay for the food.

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

If you'd of worked for labels before protools the recall sheets weren't yours they belonged to whoever paid the bills.

If you really think 1 great mix is gonna get turned into a template for awesome mixes everytime then we're all out of a job.

Give it all up and let them see how damn hard you worked.

What happens is that sometimes producers will make a minute change, then change the credits and the engineer will lose points. It can be a way to cheat someone out of points in a contract. Stems can be used the same way. This is why guys like TLA and CLA have clauses where you have to pay extra if the their mix isn't used.

It can be a shady business sometimes, so it all depends on the relationship with the client. 99.99% of the tiem if a change needs to be made the label will simply ask the mixer to make the change, so it's rarely an issue. IMHO.

[MarkRB]

Well, record companies are getting better at stipulating "delivery of masters" obligations, and contractually I don't think you are obliged to send them final mix sessions and/or recall sheets.

But I've never found any use for the CLA presets in Waves SSL or for a set of Mutt Lange's recall sheets.

I can appreciate it if you think a "producer" is gonna tweak your mix and then take the credit but otherwise it's plain silly.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by colinmiller

What happens is that sometimes producers will make a minute change, then change the credits and the engineer will lose points.

I've never seen that happen. I'm sure it does from time to time but if you are CLA et al you aren't gonna lose your credit cos some muppet made the vocal louder cos you are too busy.

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

I've never seen that happen. I'm sure it does from time to time but if you are CLA et al you aren't gonna lose your credit cos some muppet made the vocal louder cos you are too busy.

Making the vocal louder was jsut an example. It could be anything, and it has happened plenty. I have seen it happen many times from stems. Not always to get out of point contracts, sometimes just for credit, etc. But those kind of clauses didn't get written for no reason. When money starts coming in, people will do some shadey things. Sometimes it's for personal reasons like The Osbournes replacing a bass part jsut so they don't have t pay someone royalties, etc.

It's reall a grey issue and depends on the relationship. There is no simple answer of 'the client gets whatever they want', or 'don't give anything'.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

I mean, is this producer guy going to figure out all your methods/tricks/knowledge from 1 session?

I can see Tony's point, if the producer "recycles" all your setting FX routing and what not. Then thats problematic. Cheap bastard!

Back in the day, would one give up the master reels and the session recall sheets?

I realize todays methods are much simpler for recalling.

I give my clients PT back ups. Copies of the mixed sessions.
Do you think you might work with this producer again?

uhh yes they paid for it..our sheets at Sigma went with the tapes and that was the norm ..i was president of SPARS for 2 years and talked to alot of high end studio owner/managers all did the same thing..we kept backups if the tapes happened back by chance with no sheets inside..too bad most of you all don't use eq or compresss to your audio storage media..then the issue would be moot for most situations

[JGILL]

Thanks for all the adivce. One reason I forgot was the producer had mention he wanted(artist) to have the file so he could do re-mixes. I don't know if that makes any difference to any.


This was the first project I have worked on with this producer.

[Tony Shepperd]

If you feel comfortable sending out the PT session, then do it.
But it seems you are hesitating about doing this.
What exactly is bothering you about the situation?

[JGILL]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

I mean, is this producer guy going to figure out all your methods/tricks/knowledge from 1 session?

I can see Tony's point, if the producer "recycles" all your setting FX routing and what not. Then thats problematic. Cheap bastard!

Back in the day, would one give up the master reels and the session recall sheets?

I realize todays methods are much simpler for recalling.

I give my clients PT back ups. Copies of the mixed sessions.
Do you think you might work with this producer again?

Yeah I work with the producer again, but I dout I will be working with that artist again.

[mtstudios@charter]

If I get paid the agreed amount you get your product where I left off. If I under charged then too bad for me.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[JGILL]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

If you feel comfortable sending out the PT session, then do it.
But it seems you are hesitating about doing this.
What exactly is bothering you about the situation?

For one it was a bargain type deal. I did it for super cheap. And even then it was a little funny getting payment.

[Tony Shepperd]

I have a two tiered structure for mixes. Indie label fee and Major Label Fee.
If you pay the Major label fee, you get what the labels get: The entire Pro Tools Session.
If you pay the Indie price, you get a stereo mix (maybe versions of the mixes).

Unfortunately, if you don't have a policy in place with this guy, you might have to eat this one.
But as a general rule, unless they pay for it all, they don't get it all.

[absrec]

I agree with the above posters that say you should take it on a case by case basis.

It's really hard to say either way. Back in my ADAT days, I would give the tapes and track sheets to the client on the last day of mixing. I've never written eq and comp settings on track sheets though. (BTW, is this common?) Pretty much, all that would be on there were track names, maybe a pan assignment or two, and typically some stupid comments that proved I was bored on the session.

Anyway, it could be said that if you use processing to tape, that is similar to giving away your plug in settings. I try to print everything as close as humanly possible without painting myself into a corner. Someone could still alter what I put on tape. So, I guess tweaking a plug setting is really no different.

What you should do is make him sign something saying that you get credit for the mixing on the songs in question unless it is completely remixed by someone else. In which case, you simply get tracking cred. If someone tweaks your mix, you would share credit with that person. That way, if someone came to you and said it didn't sound good, you have a disclaimer.

-Aaron

[slaves666]

I would send the entire file, even if it is mixed entirely ITB, they might not have some plug-ins, making it very difficult to recreate the mix....and If there are external FX like I use in Nuendo....then it's almost impossible.

[JGILL]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I have a two tiered structure for mixes. Indie label fee and Major Label Fee.
If you pay the Major label fee, you get what the labels get: The entire Pro Tools Session.
If you pay the Indie price, you get a stereo mix (maybe versions of the mixes).

Unfortunately, if you don't have a policy in place with this guy, you might have to eat this one.
But as a general rule, unless they pay for it all, they don't get it all.

Thanks for the head up. I will now come up with and agreement to that. I think this I way have to just bite the bullet. Oh well if it gets more work I guess it's worth it.

[T_R_S]

Ask Mike Shipley or Bob Clearmountaion for all the session data and samples.
I can probaly say the answer would probaly be a no.
They get paid to mix ... NOT how to mix

[octatonic]

Don't be precious about it.
Anyone who can work out how to mix any record from your PT session info is a genius and doesn't actually need the session data.
This isn't the recipe for coca cola you have here.

Give him the session and do it graciously- this is a potential PR disaster for you.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by Stoneface

If he paid you then give him the session. What do you mean you give it to him a stripped version with all faders at unity? Sounds like bad business to me. Give him what he paid for and change your policy.

My $0.02

So wouldn't mind it if I came in and tracked a dozen songs but only paid for one to be mixed, then asked for the session files of the one mixed song and used all your mixing ideas to finish the rest of the songs?

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Don't be precious about it.
Anyone who can work out how to mix any record from your PT session info is a genius and doesn't actually need the session data.
This isn't the recipe for coca cola you have here.

Give him the session and do it graciously- this is a potential PR disaster for you.

Give me a break. Again, I guess you have no problem basically showing a band how you mix so they can save a ton of cash and do it all themselves. At the very least if they can't figure out how you did it they'll just go somewhere else so either way you're getting no credit and no additional funds. As far as PR disaster goes, I think most bands let their ears be the judge. I also love how you managed to talk down to the guy, as if his mixing style isn't important to him in any way.

[roostert]

Interesting. The subject of taking entire protools mixes, not just the audio files, has been a hot topic in the record community for awhile. The argument that many engineers are making here, LA, etc.. is that the Mix engineer has a copyright for his mix. Roger Nichols has been a big advocate for this. A record label could take the entire pro tools session, decide to mix a "surround version", move the pans around with some staff engineer, and then he would get credit for the "surround mixes", even though it was your work!

When a label owns the "masters", it's a per project basis as to what that may or may not mean. Most of the time that refers to the tracks and final mixes.

I here the argument about handing over the recall sheets in the "golden" age of analog tape, however that still does not hold weight. It's hard enough for the same engineer to "perfectly" recall an analog mix, let alone someone who wasn't even in the room at the time. However in protools, all you need are the same plugs! Then make a couple of tweaks, and boom, you're no longer the "Mix" engineer, on that version.

I understand the client relationship thing. However, my suggestion is to always discuss the details before a project begins, and if you're going to hand it all over, make sure you're compensated and credited properly.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

Give me a break. Again, I guess you have no problem basically showing a band how you mix so they can save a ton of cash and do it all themselves. At the very least if they can't figure out how you did it they'll just go somewhere else so either way you're getting no credit and no additional funds. As far as PR disaster goes, I think most bands let their ears be the judge. I also love how you managed to talk down to the guy, as if his mixing style isn't important to him in any way.

thumbsup

[absrec]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

Give me a break. Again, I guess you have no problem basically showing a band how you mix so they can save a ton of cash and do it all themselves. At the very least if they can't figure out how you did it they'll just go somewhere else so either way you're getting no credit and no additional funds. As far as PR disaster goes, I think most bands let their ears be the judge. I also love how you managed to talk down to the guy, as if his mixing style isn't important to him in any way.

Dave Pensado once said, "I can teach one of my interns how to get a great vocal sound, but I can't teach them what a great vocal sound is!".

If the artist, band, producer (whatever) can get enough out of your session file to learn how to mix a record, then they obviously are inherently talented and would have figured it out for themselves in due time. FWIW, most of the people I record don't have the first clue about what I do, they just like the playback. They think I'm some sort of freak 'cause I can make a record that sounds better than their last one.

-Aaron