About how HIGH the signal level should be when exporting?

[Hiker]

Here's the deal. I run a DAW to compose. When I finish my arrangement, I need to export the audio tracks and get ready for the mix. Here's the problem about how HIGH the signal level should be when exporting.


Well, I was quite clear about this issue. IMO, the singal level should be as HIGH as possible,unless the signal is clipped.

Here's my reason. Considering an audio file which is 44.1KHZ and 16bit, there is a room of 96DB for an audio track to "store" all of the audio data, the sampling points, actually. If the peak level of the track is -16DB, obviously, there's only 80dB to store the audio data. In this sense, the actual bit of depth is less than 16bit. In order to minimize such distortion and ensure the quality of the original audio track, I think the signal level should be as high as possilble, when I am exporting every audio track and prepare my mix.

Today one guy came to find me and we talked about this.He thought the level should be as LOW as possilbe,which really confused me.

Here's what he got. First, High level would tend to cause distortion, even the audio itself is not clipped.

This is the first point that confused me. Why would that happen? If I push my fader up 3dB, then clearly, the whole signal would add up 3DB. This is a linear amplication process. Everything is digital, Neither tube amplication nor any other analog devices. How would that cause distortion?! Of cause,we are talking about the situation without clipping.

Secondly, He explained that if we export using high level, then our mix would definitely clip. At that time the mixing enigineer gotta pull down the fader. In this sense, there's no need to make the level high when exporting ,because the engineer would make it low when mixing.

This is the second point that drove me crazy. No need to make it high? All right. But what about your so-called making it low ? How would you ensure the mixing enigineer would never push the fader up again? If the fader were pushed up, the distortion caused by the low dynamic is amplified, isn't it?

Then he explained to me: if the signal is amplified less than 12DB, we surely cannot hear that.

Come on! This is not about whether it's audible.This is about whether it exists.

I was quite clear before.Now I really got confused. How HIGH the signal level should be when exporting?

Thanks a lot.

[Greg Curtis]

I usually get audio from composers that is WAY too high. Like -0.1dB. That's way too much, since these files are usually meant to be paired with recorded live instruments recorded at real levels.

I would shoot for peaks at or below -3dB.

I'd rather have levels a bit too low than right at the top.

No compression, no reverb!

[Hiker]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

I'd rather have levels a bit too low than right at the top.

Why? This is the point!

What I really wanna know is ,as a mixing enigineer, why would you like to get low level tracks, rather than high level ones.

Thanks!

[Hiker]

Why would you call that "too much"?

Does it really cause some kind of distortion or bring some disadvantage?

[Jam]

Hi, read this discussion looking out for the stuff from Paul Frindle

DAW Mixing: Lower Levels=Better Sounding Mixes?

For what it's worth I look to peak at -6 after reading this and thinking it through.

I'm convinced !

Jam

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by Hiker

Why? This is the point!

What I really wanna know is ,as a mixing enigineer, why would you like to get low level tracks, rather than high level ones.

Thanks!

Are you exporting to send to a Mastering Engineer? Then leave him some room to work his magic....3-6dB or even 10dB. It will sound fine.

Are you exporting for a mix engineer. Yeah leave lots of room (especially if exporting at 24bit or the like). And lower would be better for conservative reasons.

This assumes you were easy with levels on the way in and maintained lower levels in the DAW. Then the exported files will be clear of any intersample overs as described by Paul Frindle on this very forum.

You should look for his thread as it provides a much more involved explanation from a guy with decades of hands-on experience.

Regards,
David

[Jam]

And this

Q for Paul Frindle

Jam

[Hiker]

Originally Posted by Jam

Hi, read this discussion looking out for the stuff from Paul Frindle

DAW Mixing: Lower Levels=Better Sounding Mixes?

For what it's worth I look to peak at -6 after reading this and thinking it through.

I'm convinced !

Jam

Thanks,but it seems that this guy's talking about the case from mixdown to mastering.

But what I concern about is the case before mixing.

[Jam]

Well it's applicable to both.

And it's quite explicit in the thread how it applies to mixing, the thread itself is titled

"daw-mixing-lower-levels-better-sounding-mixes"

Not so new's post is an excellent summary

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Sorry guys... I guess I should have posted the link as well

Let's just say this. What Paul and others are eluding to are a few different things. Overall one of the biggest keys to good recording if not the biggest is following proper gain staging.

24 bit resolution is much bigger than the dynamic range of most of your hardware. Whey trying to squeeze out that last bit of resolution what you are doing is pushing your preamps and other external gear way over it's operating voltage in most cases.

Also while in the computer using plugins you need headroom for processing. On top of that the mix buss needs headroom as well.

So to your questions about that to do...

1) don't ever worry about getting your input levels up to 0dbfs, keep your levels low.

2) In the computer back down all your channel inputs to clean up your plug ins and mix buss.

3) Never let any of your plug ins clip at all.

4) Don't rely on peak meetings for overs, just never let your levels go above -6 or -8.

This is a different thread but it covers almost the same thing.... good stuff.

PSW Recording Forums: Whatever Works => Digital tracking with low levels = better...is this new???

It's important to read all the threads and understand the theory as a whole rather than as a specific point. As with all the best internet discussions this one has a tendency to meander.

Both threads and the discussion on PSW are quite hard to follow, so you may want to read them all again. But the best way, as always, is to try it yourself, I have and I'm convinced.

If your mix guy is asking for you to present your files a certain way and you respect his work, perhaps you could just take it on faith !!

The bottom line is it's an approach, if it doesn't work for you, don't do it.
I've seen people do things terribly wrong from a technical point of view and produce great work. I've seen people who know the theory inside out churn out work that I find unpalatable.

I hope this helps, but I don't think you'll find a better explanation than Paul's and the debate his insight provoked.

Jam

[Scott Alger]

I think the logical way to do this would be to export with
no processing at all.

I work in Samplitude and when I export, I zero the mixer,
solo each track and bounce.

You gain nothing by raising or lowering anything because
likely the mixer will be changing levels anyway.

On a pure mathematical level this is the only way
that makes sense


Scott Alger
Parkside Studio ,Chicago