Bouncing tracks OTB then mixing ITB

[Jeff19]

real quick here is my question: is there any value in bouncing tracks (1 - 8 at a time) out of my PC -> through high end gear (compression/eq) -> then back into the PC, knowing that i'll mix everything ITB later? the alternative is to use UAD-1 or other plug-ins.

here are the details. so i'm in the slow process of planning a "high end" home studio. although one day in the far future i may mix OTB, i'll be doing ITB mixing for some time from now. the definition of ITB doesn't matter TOO much for this question, but for myself it consists of mixing entirely ITB (never leaving the computer before hitting a CD). i plan on having converters on the level of lynx aurora, apogee rosetta or better. my monitors will be $1500 - $2500 for a pair, maybe dynaudios and events? preamps will be a mix of api, neve, great river, pacifica...just to give you an idea of what kind of equipment i'll be working with. mixing OTB would be great, but to have a nice set-up it would be significantly more money and recalling a mix manually by twisting 100 knobs is not what i want to do now.

i'd really like to buy some high end eq and compression (neve, api, empirical labs...), but it would mostly go to waste trying to RECORD with compression and eq because as you know it's hard to undo those after recording. my idea is to "bounce out and in" a few key tracks like vocals, bass and guitars, through high end gear. then mix later ITB like i do now.

also, i am a hobby enthusiast and i love to record my music, but i pretty much suck at it compared to a real studio engineer. but learning is half of the fun for me, and i do get pretty good results on occasion. for now i'm not planning on recording at a real studio...maybe in the future.

i guess the reason i'm asking this is for one, do people really bounce tracks out and back in with success? the second reason i ask is that if i decide to ditch "bouncing" tracks, then i'll only need only a 2-in and 2-out converter and i could step it up to a UA 2192, lynx or HEDD or something like that with the extra money.

i appreciate any help. if there are other questions, let me know. thanks.

jeff

[H-Rezz]

You should try and track the live elements as well as you can with good gear Mic,Pre,Comp->A/D .......

If your style of music is programmed pop/hiphip/rnb most often than not your live elements are vocs, guitars and maybe bass , these i would try and capture first go with nice pres , Neve first and then Api for where you think it would sound better , for bass a nice D.I. , a lot of people seem to like A-Designs Reddi for this , i own a Manley Tube Dual Mono D.I. which i love ....

Once captured leave them , do not go out and reprint unless you are doing this for parrallel compression where the double doesn't need to be as prestine as the original , you will sacrifice more resolution going out and coming back in for a second time unless you do a straight up OTB mix into a console !

Softsynths and Outboard synths i would track through nice pre's , i like the Neve or Tube D.I.'s for this for ITB work , i like things that have been tried and tested through the years , from there i would just mix ITB with good sounding plugs .....

Some people also patch the outboard Eq's and Comps as external processors thru the D/A and back in A/D right into the program itself , i find this doesn't work for me because the sound changes to much because of the conversion, YMMV......

I think the trick to mixing ITB is to know how certain elements should and do sound OTB and to counter-act them with selected plugs/eq's , it's very hard to know what you are listening for unless you have heard it and experienced it...

[Kiwiburger]

Knowing what I know now, if I was starting again this is what I would buy:

Monitors first, so I could start learning them while I built up my studio. I've come to hate active monitors, because the cheap amps in them buzz too much. A quality power amp placed outside the room keeps the noise away. I went with Dynaudio BM15s and a Lab Gruppen ip450.

Benchmark DAC-1 - it was a life changing experience to realise just how good digital audio should really sound like. Compared to M-Audio and Mackie stuff, it was a revelation. If you can't hear what you are doing, you may as well give up. With a decent set of headphones (I like my Sennheiser HD280s) the DAC-1 will let you hear detail in your favorite CD's that you've never heard before. It will also let you hear all the faults and problems - that's a good thing, because otherwise you will be releasing material that contains faults and problems. DAC-1s are purchased by hifi users, so you need to be able to hear as good as a hifi listener. Also, if you ever want to process sounds OTB, you'll need a good DAC to make the trip outside the box worth it. I would probably buy this before the monitors, because I think listening skills are where it all begins.

You need at least two high quality input channels. Good preamps aren't cheap, but working with cheap noisy preamps is soul destroying and ultimately expensive, because you will have to replace them. Good a/d converters arn't cheap either. Depending on your requirements, you might have to settle for a lot of low quality channels to start with - OR - you could buy two high quality channels and then add more. I love the API A2D, and my bare bones minimum setup would be an A2D into a cheap s/pdif card such as an M-Audio Audiophile 192. That would give 4 simultaneous channels, two stellar and two average.

A lot can be done with plugins, at least to get you started. I wouldn't make it a high priority to buy outboard gear until you have the basics all sorted. Building up mic collection would be a much higher priority. Start with an SM57 - it's a no brainer. With a preamp such as an API A2D, you will be vastly ahead of the people who plug an SM57 into a Mackie, declare it to be useless and opt for a cheap chinese LDC that they will later regret.

With a barebones basic setup like the above, you could have a lot of fun reamping your softsynths thru the DAC-1 and API, etc.

But that's just my opinion. I meet a lot of people who value quantity over quality. I would rather have a little bit of quality, and do more overdubs, than to record a lot of stuff simultaneously with lacklustre results. YMMV.

[Jeff19]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

You should try and track the live elements as well as you can with good gear Mic,Pre,Comp->A/D .......

If your style of music is programmed pop/hiphip/rnb most often than not your live elements are vocs, guitars and maybe bass , these i would try and capture first go with nice pres , Neve first and then Api for where you think it would sound better , for bass a nice D.I. , a lot of people seem to like A-Designs Reddi for this , i own a Manley Tube Dual Mono D.I. which i love ....

Once captured leave them , do not go out and reprint unless you are doing this for parrallel compression where the double doesn't need to be as prestine as the original , you will sacrifice more resolution going out and coming back in for a second time unless you do a straight up OTB mix into a console !

Softsynths and Outboard synths i would track through nice pre's , i like the Neve or Tube D.I.'s for this for ITB work , i like things that have been tried and tested through the years , from there i would just mix ITB with good sounding plugs .....

Some people also patch the outboard Eq's and Comps as external processors thru the D/A and back in A/D right into the program itself , i find this doesn't work for me because the sound changes to much because of the conversion, YMMV......

I think the trick to mixing ITB is to know how certain elements should and do sound OTB and to counter-act them with selected plugs/eq's , it's very hard to know what you are listening for unless you have heard it and experienced it...

thanks for your input. in summary, you are stating that you don't think (in general)that it's worth it to send tracks through D/A to EQ/compressor then back to A/D because of the negative sound changes from the D/A -> A/D conversion. Even if you are using a Rosetta 800 for conversion and an api 550a and UA LA-2A as outboard gear? Would you (or anyone else) prefer URS and UAD-1 plugins in this situation?

i guess i could try to track with EQ and compression, but remember that i am not stellar at recording and i need to hear everything in the mix to make important decisions. i'd probably end up overcompressing something and having to repeat the recording.

[dropblacksky]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with running your ITB tracks though outboard gear. All processing degrades the signal, be it analog or digital...we just tend to prefer the analog style. People use outboard gear because of the character it adds...yes, there will be some degradation from the da-ad process, but the character added from a hardware Pultec or 1176 is going to far outweigh the converter degradation in most cases...even with crappy m-audio converters...I'd be willing to wager it'd still sound better than the track you kept in the box with an 1176 plug-in...

[Jeff19]

well when i finally get there, i'll try to post two mixes of a song. one all ITB and one with a few essential tracks sent to outboard gear. given the small number of responses, i feel like this is not commonly done.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jeff19

i feel like this is not commonly done.

This is done all the time.

That's how i mix ITB actually.

[Jeff19]

well i guess i'll have to try using outboard gear for my tracks sometime.

i'd still be interested in hearing from other people if they have an opinion about sending tracks to outboard gear. like what troubles have they encountered. how great or bad it has been for them. how do they account for the latency...

[Faderjockey]

The number one thing here.... To become a good engineer learn to make good recordings on whatever little crap you got. That way when you get a real piece you can slowly learn where and how to use it..

Seems like guys who are starting out who have money run out and by all the bling bling gear.. And have no freakin idea what to do.. Then you turn around and there is a dude with a great recording done on crap gear..

Gear is awesome.. But I'd rather hand a cd to some one that sounded awesome and watch their face when I tell them it's crap gear, Instead of the dude going "Yes I have this this and that..blah blah.. And then you listen to his disc and you want to start laughing..or punch him and take his gear.

Work on learning your room and the gear you have.. If you buy something high end or not.. Use it. Run it through your DAW. You decide if it's helping you..Not because you read it. And listen to crap gear..and use it. Then rent or borrow high end stuff.. Then you start to hear what guys are talking about. Plus if you rent or borrow something out of your range... You get to hear it.. Then you have a target to aim for when using plugs and wondering.."does it really sound like this plug"

Dude I started out with my cousin recording our gtr's in to 2 boomboxes... You know record on one.. Play it back play along and use the 2nd one to record that.. That was were my multi tracking started... Way back in the day.

I'm very happy that I didn't have to start in the DAW world of recording...

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Jeff19

i'd really like to buy some high end eq and compression (neve, api, empirical labs...), but it would mostly go to waste trying to RECORD with compression and eq because as you know it's hard to undo those after recording.

my idea is to "bounce out and in" a few key tracks like vocals, bass and guitars, through high end gear. then mix later ITB like i do now.

to your first point, you gotta learn the beauty of the mult. record one signal dry, one with your processing. you'll be using the dry signal a lot at first as you screw up the processing and learn, come mixtime, what doesn't work. but the more you do it, the more you'll learn to track with the sauce blended to perfection. the dry signal is then useful for doing parallel stuff, as you get braver and braver and lay on heavier with the compression.

don't be afraid of this stuff, it's just art. turn those knobs, they go all the way in both directions for a reason.

to your second point, your fear that this is uncommon is unfounded. it is in fact very common, and for a lot of guys doing this at home it's practically a way of life.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Jeff19]

Originally Posted by Faderjockey

The number one thing here.... To become a good engineer learn to make good recordings on whatever little crap you got. That way when you get a real piece you can slowly learn where and how to use it..

Seems like guys who are starting out who have money run out and by all the bling bling gear.. And have no freakin idea what to do.. Then you turn around and there is a dude with a great recording done on crap gear..

Gear is awesome.. But I'd rather hand a cd to some one that sounded awesome and watch their face when I tell them it's crap gear, Instead of the dude going "Yes I have this this and that..blah blah.. And then you listen to his disc and you want to start laughing..or punch him and take his gear.

Work on learning your room and the gear you have.. If you buy something high end or not.. Use it. Run it through your DAW. You decide if it's helping you..Not because you read it. And listen to crap gear..and use it. Then rent or borrow high end stuff.. Then you start to hear what guys are talking about. Plus if you rent or borrow something out of your range... You get to hear it.. Then you have a target to aim for when using plugs and wondering.."does it really sound like this plug"

Dude I started out with my cousin recording our gtr's in to 2 boomboxes... You know record on one.. Play it back play along and use the 2nd one to record that.. That was were my multi tracking started... Way back in the day.

I'm very happy that I didn't have to start in the DAW world of recording...

i was almost offended by that post, but i just think you've got me all wrong. i started just like you. i have been "recording" for 15 years if you count the first time i used my fathers karaoke machine to record my first "one track" recording. i can remember getting my first 4-track tape machine and thinking that i was in heaven...i was hooked then. for years and years i have bought the most bang-for-your-buck equipment because i have been in school and i had no money. with a roland 8-track, art tube pre, rode nt-1 and a crappy drum machine, i used to make some recordings that i consider to be pretty good for the money.

well i have worked very hard for many years and i will get a promotion in 1-2 years from now. finally i should have a modest amount of money to buy a few selected high end pieces of gear. i'm not some rich "punk" just buying a bunch of expensive toob mics and toob preamps and toob "bling bling" because i have no idea what i am doing and i have no idea why my recordings suck. to date i have purchased one good mic and one good preamp and my recordings have changed dramatically. i'm no engineer, so i still have occassional crap recordings, but i have seen the added value of quality gear and careful planning/purchacing (note that i am planning way ahead). sometimes today i make what i consider to be an almost great recording, and i feel like i have hit a "glass ceiling" of recording. i hit this ceiling before i had bought my first real preamp, and i have since crashed through. let's just say that i have not plugged in my art tube pre since then. i have been slowly building up my daw "studio" for years, but some of my stuff is not that great and there is a lot of room for improvement. i think for now i'm done with buying cheap gear (sm57 and the like not included). when i posted this question i was just wondering what type of outboard gear i should consider buying (or not buy for that matter), given my setup/needs. i apologize that it's a stupid question to some people, but i have no exposure to recording studios, so i had no idea.

anyway, i'm just here at gearslutz to learn and waste time sometimes. i appreciate everyones input. i hope i didn't offend you Faderjocky...i just felt compelled to defend myself for some reason.

by the way Faderjocky, good to see some baltimore people here. i was checking out your website and myspace...good stuff. i live in downtown b-more. go ravens!

jeff

[Faderjockey]

Well Jeff... Tell me why every freakin person in Maryland are pussies?

Offend you? Dude I was totally trying to help.... It's a Forum...I have no freakin idea who you are or what you've done... So I was just throwing crap out there that helped me back in the day..

I thought I'd help... But like every stupid thing in this world now a days...I'm supposed to watch what I type? I didn't even know I said anything that would be taken as something you would have to defend dude...


Well if I didn't help then ignore it... I'm asshole what's new.. Like you said B-more.. Did you expect different..LOL!

Oh well I was only trying to help......