Adding a master fader makes it sound less open...

guitarbth · 29th July 2007, 04:35 AM

Hello everyone...

I'm working on a project in Digital Perform 4.61 and I notice that when I add a master fader to the mixer it makes everything sound less open. So I deleted the master fader and it opened right back up... I'm not putting compression or anything across the master... Why is this? I'm wondering if I can just mix without the master fader, put in a master just to check my levels, but then delete it and bounce to disk without it...

Any thoughts? Anyone else experience this?

Thanks.

planet red · 29th July 2007, 05:09 AM

I attended a mastering session with PT stems and the mastering engineer showed me the difference between taking the master fader on and off and the difference was definetly real.

Without it, it sounded wider and slightly bigger. In a good sounding room/ monitors the difference was subtle but obvious.

Oldone · 29th July 2007, 05:09 AM

Yep, same in a lot of software. Just mix it with the master and just before you export it, remove the master fader. Keeps it 3 dimensional. Do this all the time.

thermos · 29th July 2007, 05:11 AM

? Is it because when you add the master fader and realize that you are running it too hot, thus turning it down, then it sounds worse? Of course it sounds worse if its turned down. I've never heard this before, just asking.

dmb10 · 29th July 2007, 05:18 AM

It seems as if the Master fader does a poor job of attempting to keep the mix from clipping. I noticed this in DP awhiile back, and it still bothers me. It can be prevented by paying close attention to gain scheduling.

Kiwiburger · 29th July 2007, 08:06 AM

That makes no sense. If your tracks are going to clip the master fader, they will clip even more with it removed.

I'm guessing its just some very poorly implemented code or an unresolved bug. It makes me wonder how much damage the track faders do ...

Unclenny · 29th July 2007, 01:28 PM

I just checked with a mix I'm working on right now in PTLE. Took off both faders and it really did sound clearer.

So......I like my faders, but I work hard for every little bit of clarity.

YLab · 29th July 2007, 01:39 PM

Same thing here with Samplitude. And i dont think its related to a clipping issue. Its just sound more 3d.

nikki-k · 29th July 2007, 07:02 PM

Master Faders in Pro Tools are ALWAYS there. Period. Thus, your audio is ALWAYS "passing thru" it. Period. This might be different in other apps tho...

The user simply chooses whether or not to create a Master Fader Track in a session to utilize that object's metering, level control, and/or inserts. If you do not create a Master Fader track and alter the level or use the inserts, the actual Master Fader on that buss will remain at unity/default regardless of having a Master Fader track present for control purposes.

I do not know about DP, Samplitude or any others, but with Pro Tools, if you assign a Master Fader track to control the Master Fader on any buss, leave it at default, and then switch it to monitor/control a different Master Fader on a different buss, or to control/monitor nothing, there should be no difference in sound. If there is, then one of two things has happened: One, you have changed a setting on the Master Fader track; or Two, you are experiencing something that does not actually exist (IOW, you are "fooling yourself). For one of those two to not be the case, the Master Fader track would have ot have been programmed to a default setting that is in conflict with what the actual Master Fader object that exists inline on every buss in Pro Tools (except the input busses) is set to as default.

Kyle Ashley · 29th July 2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YLab

Same thing here with Samplitude. And i dont think its related to a clipping issue. Its just sound more 3d.

How do you remove the master in Samp?

Oldone · 29th July 2007, 07:48 PM

Don't remember where I read this but the theory is that its another layer of math summing you are avoiding by removing the master fader. Basically anything that was pointing to the master is sent directly to the convertors. This would include possibly direct tracks and busses.

I don't always use this. Sometimes a compressor on the master or something else is required, If it's pristine like a jazz ensemble or a ballad I experiement with it.

narcoman · 29th July 2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by planet red

I attended a mastering session with PT stems and the mastering engineer showed me the difference between taking the master fader on and off and the difference was definetly real.

Without it, it sounded wider and slightly bigger. In a good sounding room/ monitors the difference was subtle but obvious.

well, you've been a victim of believing what you see rather than hear. your master engineer was talking utter nonsense. There is no difference since in protools you are always with the master fader. You only get to choose whether you see it or not.

Try it. Render the mix with and withouth. They will cancel - ive tried it!!

guitarbth · 29th July 2007, 08:15 PM

Wow.. Thanks for all the replies. I'm glad I'm not alone and that my ears were telling the truth. I'll proceed by mixing with the fader on, keeping my levels in check (peaking at -6db), and then just before bouncing to disk, I'll remove the master fader. And off to mastering we go...

I'm glad I have the option to remove the master fader in DP as opposed to Pro Tools where it's always there...

Thanks!

kurt · 29th July 2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitarbth

Hello everyone...

I'm working on a project in Digital Perform 4.61 and I notice that when I add a master fader to the mixer it makes everything sound less open. So I deleted the master fader and it opened right back up... I'm not putting compression or anything across the master... Why is this? I'm wondering if I can just mix without the master fader, put in a master just to check my levels, but then delete it and bounce to disk without it...

Any thoughts? Anyone else experience this?

Thanks.

i have that same experience with PT|TDM 5.1

backplay · 29th July 2007, 09:18 PM

Have all you guys that believe there is a difference tried to cancel the 2 mixes?

This way you will be shure that there is no hocus pocus going on in your mind.

joeq · 29th July 2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitarbth

Wow.. Thanks for all the replies. I'm glad I'm not alone and that my ears were telling the truth. I'll proceed by mixing with the fader on, keeping my levels in check (peaking at -6db), and then just before bouncing to disk, I'll remove the master fader. And off to mastering we go...

So why not try one bounce before removing the master fader? (assuming the master fader is at "0")

then you will have two mixes identical except for the master fader being supposedly absent. What would it take - 5 minutes to import both mixes and invert one?

I just tried this myself (in PTHD) five minutes ago, and got a complete null, BTW. I was reading this thread, I got curious and ran the two bounces, imported them into a new session and inverted one in audiosuite.

There is an important distinction between 'knowing you are not alone' and 'knowing your ears are telling you the truth'.

If I was running DP, I would want to know for sure.

deuc647 · 29th July 2007, 09:59 PM

I was thinkin the same thing with the whole 64K recording, is it true or not, my daw is down till next week, can PTHD do it so i can try?

planet red · 30th July 2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narcoman

well, you've been a victim of believing what you see rather than hear. your master engineer was talking utter nonsense. There is no difference since in protools you are always with the master fader. You only get to choose whether you see it or not.

Try it. Render the mix with and withouth. They will cancel - ive tried it!!

Not trying to argue but we did a blind test on several different songs and I chose without the master fader EVERY SINGLE TIME.. around 7 or 8 times.

We werent bouncing to disk, we were just playing it out of one PT setup thru his mastering chain into another PT rig. I could definetly hear a change and since I couldnt see the screen I had no clue what I was hearing.. just A.. then B.

I have no explanation as to why, but there was definetly a difference.

Watersound · 30th July 2007, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backplay

Have all you guys that believe there is a difference tried to cancel the 2 mixes?

This way you will be shure that there is no hocus pocus going on in your mind.

Yeah I think someone should do a null, that'll determine it right?

peeder · 30th July 2007, 02:24 AM

In Pro Tools, all a master fader is, ALL it is, is a) a set of post-fader inserts that may or may not be used and b) a COEFFICIENT on the faders feeding that output or bus.

In other words, if the master fader is set at unity gain, all the faders leading to that bus or output will be multiplied by one, thus UNAFFECTED. If the master fader is set elsewhere, it will be just as if those faders have been moved proportionally.

The inserts are unique in that they are post-fader. All the other pro tools inserts are pre-fader. This is why it can help to have the dither plugin in the last slot on the master fader, because it will be the very last thing that happens to the audio in all cases.

And yes, master faders are always "there," but set at unity gain and with no inserts, they are 100% BIT-TRANSPARENT.

I don't know anything about DP.

Oldone · 30th July 2007, 02:38 AM

My guess is that the null test doesn't apply here because the software is summing, as if a master buss were present, during the export process. What you hear without the master buss does not get written to the file. The program knows to sum the data on a print even thought what is heard is different. In the end the master buss sound (addition) is applied even though it is not present. That's why the files will always pass the null test even though there is a difference to the sound.

What is being heard, if it could be exported without the normal addition process, would be nice. Just a theory on my part.

narcoman · 30th July 2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by planet red

Not trying to argue but we did a blind test on several different songs and I chose without the master fader EVERY SINGLE TIME.. around 7 or 8 times.

We werent bouncing to disk, we were just playing it out of one PT setup thru his mastering chain into another PT rig. I could definetly hear a change and since I couldnt see the screen I had no clue what I was hearing.. just A.. then B.

I have no explanation as to why, but there was definetly a difference.

sure - but i think you got lucky!! Do the null test.... its the only way !

DowntownScience · 30th July 2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

My guess is that the null test doesn't apply here because the software is summing, as if a master buss were present, during the export process.

Listen to the man!

In light of that statement I would say capture a length of each signal through an oscilloscope & see if the images null that way - eliminates the bounce.

mOjO FET · 30th July 2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YLab

Same thing here with Samplitude. And i dont think its related to a clipping issue. Its just sound more 3d.

How do you remove the master fader in Samplitude?

Michael

bob humid · 31st July 2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mOjO FET

How do you remove the master fader in Samplitude?

Michael

there is only one way but it is easy...

use a sound-card with multiple outs and assign each subgroup of your VIP's mixer to another stereo-out of the card ... connect the outs to an external analog mixer or use the dsp-mixer that eventually comes with your card to mix the channels / busses. ... and there goes your master fader... ;-)

but it would be a pitty since the summing in samplitude is superior to most DAWs...

no, really. you can only "hide" the master in samplitude visually. its still there of course .. if you hear a difference it is a psycho-acoustic illusion. seeing is believing.

robert

RKrizman · 31st July 2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by planet red

I attended a mastering session with PT stems and the mastering engineer showed me the difference between taking the master fader on and off and the difference was definetly real.

Without it, it sounded wider and slightly bigger. In a good sounding room/ monitors the difference was subtle but obvious.

That's just bogus. In Protools there is always a master fader on every track, already in existence as part of the whole algorythmic structure. When you "create" one you're just showing something on the screen that's already there.

There is no difference in sound. You're being fooled by something else.

-R

Tantrum The Cat · 31st July 2007, 05:14 AM

Uh - what's the possibility that people are accidentally setting the master fader to mono? (Yes, this is doable, at least in Logic Pro and, if memory serves, in PT.)

That would make a pretty drastic difference in sound, no?

i51423 · 31st July 2007, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

Uh - what's the possibility that people are accidentally setting the master fader to mono? (Yes, this is doable, at least in Logic Pro and, if memory serves, in PT.)

That would make a pretty drastic difference in sound, no?

I think that would be a little too obvious.

There's no mojo if you don't have to take a second glance(listen).

filthyrich · 31st July 2007, 05:47 PM

When I start mixing, I create busses at the bottom of the virtual mixer. I use Sonar 6.0. I assign the 3-4 different kicks to a bus, the 3 snare tracks, lead and rhythm guitars to their own stereo busses etc.
When I'm solo'ing out the busses to listen and make sure that it all sounds good...all is well. I start with the kick bus, add the snare, then toms, then overhead, then bass, both rthm and lead gits and then lead and back vox. I do this by adding one at a time with the solo button. I don't solo the master fader in with it. When I do, it quite often turns to mush. I'm guessing because everything is there "twice"..in a way. I mean this because each of the solo'd busses is being sent to the master fader as well as being played in solo mode. It makes sense to me..I think. I've heard the difference more than a few times.

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29th July 2007, 04:35 AM	#1
guitarbth Gear maniac Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 150	Adding a master fader makes it sound less open... Hello everyone... I'm working on a project in Digital Perform 4.61 and I notice that when I add a master fader to the mixer it makes everything sound less open. So I deleted the master fader and it opened right back up... I'm not putting compression or anything across the master... Why is this? I'm wondering if I can just mix without the master fader, put in a master just to check my levels, but then delete it and bounce to disk without it... Any thoughts? Anyone else experience this? Thanks.

29th July 2007, 08:06 AM	#6
Kiwiburger Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,821	That makes no sense. If your tracks are going to clip the master fader, they will clip even more with it removed. I'm guessing its just some very poorly implemented code or an unresolved bug. It makes me wonder how much damage the track faders do ... __________________ Once you let the magic smoke escape, you can't expect it to work again unless you take it to a wizzard and have him put more smoke inside ... tINY

29th July 2007, 01:28 PM	#7
Unclenny Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,571	I just checked with a mix I'm working on right now in PTLE. Took off both faders and it really did sound clearer. So......I like my faders, but I work hard for every little bit of clarity. __________________ "The main thing is to have a gutsy approach....but use your head." Julia Child "get really immersed." bogeyeater Orient.....Organize.....Decide......Act Lenny and The Scapers

29th July 2007, 07:02 PM	#9
nikki-k Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: PDX Posts: 480	Master Faders in Pro Tools are ALWAYS there. Period. Thus, your audio is ALWAYS "passing thru" it. Period. This might be different in other apps tho... The user simply chooses whether or not to create a Master Fader Track in a session to utilize that object's metering, level control, and/or inserts. If you do not create a Master Fader track and alter the level or use the inserts, the actual Master Fader on that buss will remain at unity/default regardless of having a Master Fader track present for control purposes. I do not know about DP, Samplitude or any others, but with Pro Tools, if you assign a Master Fader track to control the Master Fader on any buss, leave it at default, and then switch it to monitor/control a different Master Fader on a different buss, or to control/monitor nothing, there should be no difference in sound. If there is, then one of two things has happened: One, you have changed a setting on the Master Fader track; or Two, you are experiencing something that does not actually exist (IOW, you are "fooling yourself). For one of those two to not be the case, the Master Fader track would have ot have been programmed to a default setting that is in conflict with what the actual Master Fader object that exists inline on every buss in Pro Tools (except the input busses) is set to as default. __________________ nikki k

29th July 2007, 05:09 AM	#2
planet red Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: historic richmond va Posts: 652	I attended a mastering session with PT stems and the mastering engineer showed me the difference between taking the master fader on and off and the difference was definetly real. Without it, it sounded wider and slightly bigger. In a good sounding room/ monitors the difference was subtle but obvious.

29th July 2007, 05:09 AM	#3
Oldone Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 696	Yep, same in a lot of software. Just mix it with the master and just before you export it, remove the master fader. Keeps it 3 dimensional. Do this all the time.

29th July 2007, 05:11 AM	#4
thermos Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,963	? Is it because when you add the master fader and realize that you are running it too hot, thus turning it down, then it sounds worse? Of course it sounds worse if its turned down. I've never heard this before, just asking.

29th July 2007, 05:18 AM	#5
dmb10 Gear nut Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 141	It seems as if the Master fader does a poor job of attempting to keep the mix from clipping. I noticed this in DP awhiile back, and it still bothers me. It can be prevented by paying close attention to gain scheduling.

29th July 2007, 01:39 PM	#8
YLab Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 8	Same thing here with Samplitude. And i dont think its related to a clipping issue. Its just sound more 3d.

29th July 2007, 07:48 PM	#11
Oldone Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 696	Don't remember where I read this but the theory is that its another layer of math summing you are avoiding by removing the master fader. Basically anything that was pointing to the master is sent directly to the convertors. This would include possibly direct tracks and busses. I don't always use this. Sometimes a compressor on the master or something else is required, If it's pristine like a jazz ensemble or a ballad I experiement with it.

29th July 2007, 08:15 PM	#13
guitarbth Gear maniac Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 150	Wow.. Thanks for all the replies. I'm glad I'm not alone and that my ears were telling the truth. I'll proceed by mixing with the fader on, keeping my levels in check (peaking at -6db), and then just before bouncing to disk, I'll remove the master fader. And off to mastering we go... I'm glad I have the option to remove the master fader in DP as opposed to Pro Tools where it's always there... Thanks!

29th July 2007, 09:18 PM	#15
backplay Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Antwerpen Posts: 464	Have all you guys that believe there is a difference tried to cancel the 2 mixes? This way you will be shure that there is no hocus pocus going on in your mind.

29th July 2007, 09:59 PM	#17
deuc647 Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,308	I was thinkin the same thing with the whole 64K recording, is it true or not, my daw is down till next week, can PTHD do it so i can try?

30th July 2007, 02:24 AM	#20
peeder Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: No longer participating here. Posts: 6,742	In Pro Tools, all a master fader is, ALL it is, is a) a set of post-fader inserts that may or may not be used and b) a COEFFICIENT on the faders feeding that output or bus. In other words, if the master fader is set at unity gain, all the faders leading to that bus or output will be multiplied by one, thus UNAFFECTED. If the master fader is set elsewhere, it will be just as if those faders have been moved proportionally. The inserts are unique in that they are post-fader. All the other pro tools inserts are pre-fader. This is why it can help to have the dither plugin in the last slot on the master fader, because it will be the very last thing that happens to the audio in all cases. And yes, master faders are always "there," but set at unity gain and with no inserts, they are 100% BIT-TRANSPARENT. I don't know anything about DP.

30th July 2007, 02:38 AM	#21
Oldone Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 696	My guess is that the null test doesn't apply here because the software is summing, as if a master buss were present, during the export process. What you hear without the master buss does not get written to the file. The program knows to sum the data on a print even thought what is heard is different. In the end the master buss sound (addition) is applied even though it is not present. That's why the files will always pass the null test even though there is a difference to the sound. What is being heard, if it could be exported without the normal addition process, would be nice. Just a theory on my part.

31st July 2007, 05:14 AM	#27
Tantrum The Cat Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Soviet Canuckistan Posts: 204	Uh - what's the possibility that people are accidentally setting the master fader to mono? (Yes, this is doable, at least in Logic Pro and, if memory serves, in PT.) That would make a pretty drastic difference in sound, no?

31st July 2007, 05:47 PM	#29
filthyrich Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 656	what happens to me When I start mixing, I create busses at the bottom of the virtual mixer. I use Sonar 6.0. I assign the 3-4 different kicks to a bus, the 3 snare tracks, lead and rhythm guitars to their own stereo busses etc. When I'm solo'ing out the busses to listen and make sure that it all sounds good...all is well. I start with the kick bus, add the snare, then toms, then overhead, then bass, both rthm and lead gits and then lead and back vox. I do this by adding one at a time with the solo button. I don't solo the master fader in with it. When I do, it quite often turns to mush. I'm guessing because everything is there "twice"..in a way. I mean this because each of the solo'd busses is being sent to the master fader as well as being played in solo mode. It makes sense to me..I think. I've heard the difference more than a few times.