sdc acoustic guitar shootout

Rickard · 27th July 2007, 09:29 PM

Here are some new clips for acoustic guitar. The nylon string mics were a little too close (bass heavy) but they can still be compared.

The mics are:

Schoeps 221b
Oktava 012 Joly Mod
Beyerdynamic MC930

Please let everyone know what you think. Thanks.

Dean

Rickard · 29th July 2007, 05:35 PM

Anyone checking these clips out?

ianvargo · 29th July 2007, 08:18 PM

C sounds the most open to me. On both clips. I need to listen some more though.

sahiaman · 30th July 2007, 03:12 AM

What make/model guitars are you using? Just curious.

craigmorris74 · 30th July 2007, 04:58 AM

I liked the midrange clarity of C on both guitars. Thought they were pretty similar, though.
Craig

Ryuben · 30th July 2007, 07:40 AM

I checked these clips out through my AKG headphones...all sounded really similar to me as well. However, I also like C the best...and for the same reason listed above. To me C sounds a little more "full bodied" but not really boomy.

I'm interested to know what mic pre you used on these (as well as which mic corresponds to the clips).

Thanks for posting.

buzzjoe · 30th July 2007, 08:30 AM

I prefere b (nice presence) than c, a last.

peeder · 30th July 2007, 08:54 AM

It sounds to me as if the mics are stacked vertically in three simultaneous XY pairs. With the drum version the placement wasn't as critical, but at this distance from a guitar it is. I think B was in the middle and is the loudest and has the most on-axis view of the strings, giving it an unfair advantage over the others. C is considerably quieter and hazier. I think I would like A the best if it was in B's position.

I again think the mics are in order. B I recognize since I have a pair of Oktavamod mc-012's. Yes the transient response is very very fast on them. They are a good deal if you want that, see they're competing with these guys. They aren't very warm though. I kept an original (late 90's) TSR pair of bodies for their warmth to go along with the oktavamod bodies for their speed. But neither come quite all the way up to those Schoeps in reality quotient. Glad I skipped the Beyers...

mljung · 30th July 2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzjoe

I prefere b (nice presence) then c, a last.

This was my first conclusion as well. Peeders observations about the placement is of course very important!

Afterwords I tried to listen, first to the left then right channel in mono, and without the difference in the stereo perspective of the recording I have to say, that it's hard for me to come to any clear conclusions other than[listened with Sennheiser HD650]; any of these with the right placement would do just fine. A little EQ could tweak the rest if needed.
But I'm still courious what was what!
The lo-mid pressence of b indicates it's MK012, c could be MC-930, but since I don't know the sound of the Schoeps, I'm not sure.

Rickard · 30th July 2007, 02:45 PM

I don't know what kind of guitar it is. It is not an expensive one by any means (belongs to my neighbor). It is a twelve sting with only 9 strings.

All mics were about 16 inches from the guitar, a little above and angled down to face the strings. The body mics are a little behind the sound hole angled in toward the sound hole. The neck mics are around the 12th fret angled in to aim at about the place where the neck and body meet. The mics formed two triangles that matched each other so that the distance between their match was the same for each pair. They were as close to each other as I could get them.

I believe that this placement made a negligible difference between the mics. They were not close enough to the source to have shown a difference if the placement was swapped IMO.

I'll put up the key late tonight.

Thanks for checking them out

Rickard · 31st July 2007, 02:16 AM

Thanks to the people who were listening to the clips. The mics are:

A-Schoeps 221b
B-Beyerdynamic MC930
C-Oktava MC012 Joly Mod

My personal favorites are the MC930s, with the Schoeps as an almost too close to call 2nd. The Okatvas sounded good but the bottom was a little too round (not as tight or defined as the Beyers or Schoeps)and the imaging wasn't as good imo.

I have other sdc mics that I didn't bother to include as these three are my favorites.

Dean

MooWahmBah · 31st July 2007, 05:25 AM

Wow ... was it because I cheated and looked first ? or not ? I like A best ....sounds like it smoothed out some of the tendencies of the guitar to get a little bulky . Definately a large difference in the bass response ... I wouldn`t want to have to EQ out all that chunk in C ... A just sounds more even and balanced ...could it be the mic position as suggested here ? thanks for taking the trouble to post this ...Paul

ianvargo · 31st July 2007, 06:16 AM

Hey good shootout, I was planning on buying the MC930s. Now I definately want them!

peeder · 31st July 2007, 07:46 AM

Wow I was wrong nice showing for the Beyers. I guess these were priced accordingly...

mljung · 31st July 2007, 11:01 AM

Very surprising - I have both the MK012 and MC930, I'm almost certain that I have a darker MK012 and a MC930 with more top.
MC930 have definitely a more linear off axis response which makes the stereo-imaging better.

Under all circumstances - interesting shootout; three good candidates for Akk Guit recording; all would do well. It is still more a question of instrument and mic placement in my book.

Rickard · 31st July 2007, 03:12 PM

I have found with the Oktavas (listening to clips and I have 4 012s) that they are not all that consistent. These are the two best sounding capsules of the 4 that I own. None of them are Chinese. I hope that quality control is better than it used to be. They were purchased from guitar center about 10 years ago.

Dean

Acoustic Cloud · 31st July 2007, 08:50 PM

In all honesty, a slight difference of position/angle, even at 16 inches out from an acoustic guitar can be detrimental to a test like that. The linear real estate of an acoustic would need the mics to be almost at room mic distance for this to water down that concern enough, IMO..

I recently tested 3 different quality cables for Mike at Oktavamod, and used a Gracie stand for the guitar. True, there were 3 different performances of the same little ditty, but nothing moved, and the single mic only had the cable removed and replaced. Is the slight -slight difference in each performance as bad as the mics being 1/2 inch or more off from each other, using the same take??

I dunno. I guess it depends on how well you can dupe a take?

loaf · 1st August 2007, 12:57 AM

I'd say the player has a great deal to do with the recorded sound when it comes to ac guitar - keeping things even and clear is a real discipline I think - people talk about smearing and brittle high end etc, but a bad player can give you that and more -

say you want to get as good a sound as 'any major dude will tell you' - ok, he's played it twice and it's a good mic and all that, but listen to the precision of the playing, the timing...

mus1k_freak · 1st August 2007, 02:25 AM

ah i was just about to post something on this subject i guess ill just add it to this thread

i have 2 MXL 604's and 2 akg se 300b's with the ck91 capsules sitting in front of me, so ill be recording a little bit of acoustic with each set and post them up for you guys, they'll be run through a trident s20 (only thing i have on hand at the moment)

not sure if anyone even cares about those 2 mics, but itll be fun to add them to the mix

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31st July 2007, 08:50 PM	#17
Acoustic Cloud Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: around the corner Posts: 1,968	In all honesty, a slight difference of position/angle, even at 16 inches out from an acoustic guitar can be detrimental to a test like that. The linear real estate of an acoustic would need the mics to be almost at room mic distance for this to water down that concern enough, IMO.. I recently tested 3 different quality cables for Mike at Oktavamod, and used a Gracie stand for the guitar. True, there were 3 different performances of the same little ditty, but nothing moved, and the single mic only had the cable removed and replaced. Is the slight -slight difference in each performance as bad as the mics being 1/2 inch or more off from each other, using the same take?? I dunno. I guess it depends on how well you can dupe a take? __________________ If the Earth wasnt created, where'd all the dirt come from?

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29th July 2007, 05:35 PM	#2
Rickard Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NW New Jersey Posts: 109	Anyone checking these clips out?

29th July 2007, 08:18 PM	#3
ianvargo Gear nut Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 114	C sounds the most open to me. On both clips. I need to listen some more though.

30th July 2007, 03:12 AM	#4
sahiaman Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 314	What make/model guitars are you using? Just curious.

30th July 2007, 04:58 AM	#5
craigmorris74 Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 202	I liked the midrange clarity of C on both guitars. Thought they were pretty similar, though. Craig

30th July 2007, 07:40 AM	#6
Ryuben Gear Head Join Date: May 2007 Location: AZ, USA Posts: 61	I checked these clips out through my AKG headphones...all sounded really similar to me as well. However, I also like C the best...and for the same reason listed above. To me C sounds a little more "full bodied" but not really boomy. I'm interested to know what mic pre you used on these (as well as which mic corresponds to the clips). Thanks for posting.

30th July 2007, 08:30 AM	#7
buzzjoe Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 163	I prefere b (nice presence) than c, a last.

30th July 2007, 08:54 AM	#8
peeder Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,550	It sounds to me as if the mics are stacked vertically in three simultaneous XY pairs. With the drum version the placement wasn't as critical, but at this distance from a guitar it is. I think B was in the middle and is the loudest and has the most on-axis view of the strings, giving it an unfair advantage over the others. C is considerably quieter and hazier. I think I would like A the best if it was in B's position. I again think the mics are in order. B I recognize since I have a pair of Oktavamod mc-012's. Yes the transient response is very very fast on them. They are a good deal if you want that, see they're competing with these guys. They aren't very warm though. I kept an original (late 90's) TSR pair of bodies for their warmth to go along with the oktavamod bodies for their speed. But neither come quite all the way up to those Schoeps in reality quotient. Glad I skipped the Beyers...

30th July 2007, 02:45 PM	#10
Rickard Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NW New Jersey Posts: 109	I don't know what kind of guitar it is. It is not an expensive one by any means (belongs to my neighbor). It is a twelve sting with only 9 strings. All mics were about 16 inches from the guitar, a little above and angled down to face the strings. The body mics are a little behind the sound hole angled in toward the sound hole. The neck mics are around the 12th fret angled in to aim at about the place where the neck and body meet. The mics formed two triangles that matched each other so that the distance between their match was the same for each pair. They were as close to each other as I could get them. I believe that this placement made a negligible difference between the mics. They were not close enough to the source to have shown a difference if the placement was swapped IMO. I'll put up the key late tonight. Thanks for checking them out

31st July 2007, 02:16 AM	#11
Rickard Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NW New Jersey Posts: 109	Thanks to the people who were listening to the clips. The mics are: A-Schoeps 221b B-Beyerdynamic MC930 C-Oktava MC012 Joly Mod My personal favorites are the MC930s, with the Schoeps as an almost too close to call 2nd. The Okatvas sounded good but the bottom was a little too round (not as tight or defined as the Beyers or Schoeps)and the imaging wasn't as good imo. I have other sdc mics that I didn't bother to include as these three are my favorites. Dean

31st July 2007, 05:25 AM	#12
MooWahmBah Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 239	Wow ... was it because I cheated and looked first ? or not ? I like A best ....sounds like it smoothed out some of the tendencies of the guitar to get a little bulky . Definately a large difference in the bass response ... I wouldn`t want to have to EQ out all that chunk in C ... A just sounds more even and balanced ...could it be the mic position as suggested here ? thanks for taking the trouble to post this ...Paul

31st July 2007, 06:16 AM	#13
ianvargo Gear nut Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 114	Hey good shootout, I was planning on buying the MC930s. Now I definately want them!

31st July 2007, 07:46 AM	#14
peeder Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,550	Wow I was wrong nice showing for the Beyers. I guess these were priced accordingly...

31st July 2007, 11:01 AM	#15
mljung Gear nut Join Date: May 2006 Location: Copenhagen, DK Posts: 140	Very surprising - I have both the MK012 and MC930, I'm almost certain that I have a darker MK012 and a MC930 with more top. MC930 have definitely a more linear off axis response which makes the stereo-imaging better. Under all circumstances - interesting shootout; three good candidates for Akk Guit recording; all would do well. It is still more a question of instrument and mic placement in my book.

31st July 2007, 03:12 PM	#16
Rickard Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NW New Jersey Posts: 109	I have found with the Oktavas (listening to clips and I have 4 012s) that they are not all that consistent. These are the two best sounding capsules of the 4 that I own. None of them are Chinese. I hope that quality control is better than it used to be. They were purchased from guitar center about 10 years ago. Dean

1st August 2007, 12:57 AM	#18
loaf Gear maniac Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 223	I'd say the player has a great deal to do with the recorded sound when it comes to ac guitar - keeping things even and clear is a real discipline I think - people talk about smearing and brittle high end etc, but a bad player can give you that and more - say you want to get as good a sound as 'any major dude will tell you' - ok, he's played it twice and it's a good mic and all that, but listen to the precision of the playing, the timing...

1st August 2007, 02:25 AM	#19
mus1k_freak Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 61	ah i was just about to post something on this subject i guess ill just add it to this thread i have 2 MXL 604's and 2 akg se 300b's with the ck91 capsules sitting in front of me, so ill be recording a little bit of acoustic with each set and post them up for you guys, they'll be run through a trident s20 (only thing i have on hand at the moment) not sure if anyone even cares about those 2 mics, but itll be fun to add them to the mix