Hobbyist needs help with a heavy rock mix

[chillytc]

I apologize that this isn't per se a gear question but I was hoping some of the more experienced folks on this board could offer me some direction on a problem I am having. For context, I am a guitar player first and do not claim to be an expert in recording although I have accumulated a reasonable set of gear for recording demos (Tab V78M, Great River pres, a Germanium, a couple of Distressors and a Digi 002 with a reasonable selection of plugins).

I am mixing a heavy rock track and trying, in essence, to get every instrument as big as possible (big drums, slamming bass, giant guitars, big vox) and am struggling with running out of room in the mix. For example, I can get the drums sounding slamming and the guitars really cutting but then when I try to pull the bass up to be prominent I either run out of headroom and have to pull everything back down and sort of start over or the bass starts to overshadow the drums.

I have tried using eq to carve out specific frequency spectrums for each instrument and that has helped to a degree but there is a limit to how much eq can be added before I start to transform the sound of the instrument in an undesirable way. It also appears to me that using *less* rather than more compression helps with this although I have the impression that that is not typically how these mixes are done (think Queens of the Stone Age or Foo Fighters as an example of the general direction of the intended sound).

I realize this is basically a "how do I mix" 101 question so I'm not asking that anyone try to advise me specifically what to do, although that would be welcome. I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a book or some other educational material that I could get a hold of to help me educate myself to solve this problem as my preliminary conclusion is that this kind of thing is just trickier to mix and, given my lack of experience, I need to just do some woodshedding.

Any help would be really appreciated.

Thanks.

[filthyrich]

I deal with this every time I mix. I mostly do heavier punk and metal (ish) stuff. It's a tricky bugger that I have yet to solve. Good luck; and I'll be watching this thread closely.

By the way, I just bought the Mixing Engineers Handbook based on some great reviews. People seem to also swear by "mixing with your mind." It's pricey, but supposed to be worth it.

[chillytc]

Thanks - I just ordered Mixing with your Mind after looking at some reviews. We'll see if it's worth the money.

[u b k]

as you probably already suspect, not everything can be loud and not everything can be up front. some things have to be small and sit farther back.

listen closely, i mean REALLY closely, to the mixes you admire. listen to how the hugeness of one or two elements gives an overall impression of hugeness to the whole mix. usually, drums are a lot smaller than you remember them being. guitars are a lot more band-limited. all that compression happens in small stages, and --- this is the part you're not gonna like --- it happens with analog compressors. the plugs don't cut it.

the importance of arrangement cannot be overstated. how the parts fit, how they overlap, and how the performance makes them land, all of this impacts what you as a mixer can do. likewise with the choice of tones and timbres. the fate of a mix a largely sealed when the tracks are recorded.

to sum it all up: do the best you can, and move on. there's only so much one song can teach you, and your job is not to learn or figure it out but to get it done and get on with the next. the learning happens as a matter of course, you will get better whether you want to or not.

and you're right: less compression is generally better, until you get better at compression, and then you can start to lay it on like you mean it.

last, if your monitors aren't up to snuff, nothing else matters. spend a few bucks to get into a good room with a talented guy and watch him work. you'll learn more in two days than 6 months holed up in your bedroom.

struggle is overrated.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Fretbored]

In addition to this wonderful advise, try giving everything it's own space.
Find out where the kick is sitting and scoop some lows out of the bass guitar and electrics if needed. Sometimes, as previously stated, an electric guitar by itself may sound very small, but in context with the other instruments, may sit perfectly. Big sound is a state of mind. What your actually hearing may fool you.

[Gregg Sartiano]

u b k is right on, as usual.

I'd consider doing sub mixes for the drums & guitar. Aside from helping with your headroom problems, it'll give you the versatility to audition changes quickly and without confusion. Your gain structure on the drum reverbs may change slightly. I'm very big on submixing, personally. Being on HD helps (delay compensation, extra busses). And you can try FX on these returns as well, although less is often more.

How do you do this? Get all of your drum tracks next to each other, highlight them in the mixer (click on the leftmost drum track name, shift-click on the rightmost drum track name -- they should all now be highlighted), and option-shift click, drag, and change the output of one of the drum tracks to an empty stereo bus pair. They should all respond. If you haven't done this before, I'd recommend saving right before you do it -- then you can revert. If you, for instance, option-click instead of option-shift clicking, you'll change every track on your song, so be careful!

Then make a "New" track -- stereo Aux Input, and change the input to the bus you're using.

If you're overdriving it and need to manage headroom, you can also make a stereo Master Fader and set it to that bus pair.

Incidentally, now if you need to do volume rides on the drums, you can just use the aux return...simplicity itself!

(...although you could've already done this with the drum grouping -- you DID group your drum tracks, right?).

Also, remember when EQ'ing that one cut is worth a thousand boosts, especially in digital (it's been shown that digital EQ's respond more accurately to cuts). It definitely takes discipline to turn stuff down, but it's worth it. Think: tracking=painting, mixing=sculpting. You define the body of a mix by what you take away. That counts gating, EQ cutting, fader rides, and compression (slow and fast, which have different uses), and more. And you can't learn gating from a book.

***

Charles Dye's mixing DVD is awesome, and it comes with PT files of the song mixed in the video. It's worth every penny (and I don't get paid for saying that).

Do you have 32 or 48 tracks? How many busses are available -- if it's 16 (8 stereo), you may start to run out if you're doing any serious mixing, by the time you do submixes and FX.

Don't be afraid to ask the questions; that's what we're here for. Who needs another microphone thread, anyway...?

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by chillytc

suggestions for a book

"Behind the Glass." It won't teach you how to mix per se, but if the content sinks in, your mixing will improve, as will your producing. And the producer interviews are short reads -- 10 pages or less, if I remember.