Producers/Engineers, would you use horn sessions over the net?

[Bleek]

Hi all,

I am wanting to gauge interest in setting up a business that can provide horn sessions over the internet.

The process would involve you get in touch with what is needed. We book the right players for the job mostly for the next day. You send an mp3 of the track plus charts or we arrange it for you. We send back a quick version of it for approval and if so send via yousendit.com or couriered CD the uncompressed tracks. All recorded with good gear and tracks sent back to you clean as if we were on the other side of the glass.

The players are all first call guys that you would get anyway but you make one call or email, don't have to organize everyone and one invoice.

Plus it caters to producers etc who are finding they no longer need there own recording room.

I'm keen to hear discussion on why or why not this system would or wouldn't work.
Thanks guys.

[ssaudio]

Originally Posted by Bleek

The players are all first call guys that you would get anyway

Yup, so why bother paying you?

You'll need to sell this on much more than the convenience factor....

[Bleek]

This is absolutely the sort of question that is going to help work out wether or not this is relevant.

There are probably about 10 places in the world that have a decent enough music scene to supply a range of competent horn players to studios. Part of this idea is to provide first call horn players to people that would not have access, geographically speaking. Also many jingle companies no longer have their own rooms any more, so it is easier for them.

In terms of rates, there would only be a booking rate on top of the standard session players rates.

[hle144]

Bad idea. Alot of times, there will be changes made to the chart as its happenig, and tuning is a big issue meaining sonic clarity is a must. What about accent markings? Thats another thing. Oh, yeah, performance is kinda important too.

Most studio guys especially horn and stirng players show up to the session cold. They don't know what their playing until the date. So its up to the conductor, producer, md, arranger or composer to articulate and oversea the group as a whole harmonic and tonally.

Unless you can provide digital or ISDN quality audio and a teleconference feed,... Bad Idea.

Theres a website called Esessions that has been trying to do this but really, if I had the cash to hire top musicians, I would definitely want to be there. If you need top musicians, it must be a good gig, you can afford to be there.

[Jamz]

Exactly! all good points.

Originally Posted by hle144

Bad idea. Alot of times, there will be changes made to the chart as its happenig, and tuning is a big issue meaining sonic clarity is a must. What about accent markings? Thats another thing. Oh, yeah, performance is kinda important too.

Most studio guys especially horn and stirng players show up to the session cold. They don't know what their playing until the date. So its up to the conductor, producer, md, arranger or composer to articulate and oversea the group as a whole harmonic and tonally.

Unless you can provide digital or ISDN quality audio and a teleconference feed,... Bad Idea.

Theres a website called Esessions that has been trying to do this but really, if I had the cash to hire top musicians, I would definitely want to be there. If you need top musicians, it must be a good gig, you can afford to be there.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Bleek

Hi all,

I am wanting to gauge interest in setting up a business that can provide horn sessions over the internet.

The process would involve you get in touch with what is needed. We book the right players for the job mostly for the next day. You send an mp3 of the track plus charts or we arrange it for you. We send back a quick version of it for approval and if so send via yousendit.com or couriered CD the uncompressed tracks. All recorded with good gear and tracks sent back to you clean as if we were on the other side of the glass.

The players are all first call guys that you would get anyway but you make one call or email, don't have to organize everyone and one invoice.

Plus it caters to producers etc who are finding they no longer need there own recording room.

I'm keen to hear discussion on why or why not this system would or wouldn't work.
Thanks guys.

This would not work for me. I want interaction. I want phrasing. I want articulations the way I hear them in my head - not the way someone else interprets them. That said, I DO value what players bring to the table and will often change out parts based on their input. I've yet to EVER do a horn date (that I arranged) where the horn players played everything perfect per my musical wishes without input from me and back and forth interaction - even with explicit articulations pre-written out. And I've used the best in LA. Some miss it by a mile, some get very close. None nail it perfectly. I mean, that's why orchestras have conductors after all, right? Someone to tell the musicians how to interpret the written notes to the composers or producers satisfaction.

If there's an 8th note with a "dot" above it, how short does it get played? Does it get bit off like a short 32nd note? Does it get squeezed? Does it get full value but hit hard? All sound radically different to me.

For this to work on a serious pro level, you will need to go back and forth and re-record things - probably for free until you get it like the producer/composer wants it. Are the musicians commited to that? Until you can get that "6th sense" of what each and every DIFFERENT client wants, you will be shooting blindfolded in the dark, even with provided charts.

An exception to this would be a well known / widely recorded section where people come to the section to get the sound/vibe of the section. That would work because the client already has a pre-conceived notion of what you will provide, and the section just does "it's thang".

Some of the session players I use I've used for 10-15 years and I still need to communicate with them what I want. Eventually they start to adapt to my style, but it still takes a degree of experimentation on their part and input from me until we lock into it.

This could work for clients who are not picky. Or maybe it would be OK for someone who's not really into horns or knows nothing about how they phrase, but as an ex-horn player, I know EXACTLY what I want and I've never gotten it without interaction. Horns are so articulate which is why they are one of the hardest instruments to "sample" and make sound real.

Your idea is noble and I wash you well, but IMO Internet sessions rob the music of human interaction. Without human interaction, music becomes two dimensional and it never reaches the heights that it can attain with two or more talented minds and musicians in the same location. And for me, personally, I need to be one of those minds.

However if your name is Jerry Hey, I would consider it, but I'd still need a phone hookup during the session.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by drBill

However if your name is Jerry Hey, I would consider it,

Yeah, I was involved in a couple of mid-80's albums where the backing tracks were sent off to Jerry. He did the arrangements, hired the players and the studio, produced the session and sent the results back. In both cases the client was amazed and thrilled at the results.
20 years ago, it essentially worked exactly as Bleek suggests.
The only difference being Mr Hey's reputation.
The clients didn't have much input into the session, but in the end got more than they hoped for.
So why not?
Having worked all over the world, I can see a lot of merit for sending tracks off to leading horn sections (or string sections). Many locations just don't have the same quality of player!

[PhilE]

Only if you were going to be hugely cheaper than just booking a little room (I can think of 3 off the top of my head that I can get for £100 a day that are fine with horns in)

[Plec]

I've done it before with very seasoned players and it worked out very nicely that time. I just sent them a midifile, a programmed audio part and the backingtrack. The only problem was that since yours_truly wasn't a very great horn arranger they had to change a couple of things, for the better... but in the end they changed a bit too much so the whole part actually lost it's significance. I had to do some minor copy/paste/cut inside the parts to get it to where it was supposed to be, and then it was the question of a trumpet solo that took a few turns to get right.

So... If I'm doing it again, I need to be there for the actual session, despite the quality of the players and despite how much I don't know about arranging horns.

[Beermaster]

I can see a big market for this from the Semi-pro world. Many people out there do not have the slightest understanding of arranging and horns let alone the limitations of range and stylistic options with articulations. Even other pro musician friends have asked for my help in the past to arrange horns for their tracks to there are a lot of people who would make use of an online service like this.

Obviously in the top league sessions with money and time not being a problem there isn't a need for this but there are a load of other people trying to make their personal album as good as it can be on a budget.

A good friend of mine runs an online sax solo recoring service and is doing quite well out of that.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Exactly! all good points.

aren't you the guy that subs out parts to nashville?

[PhilE]

Originally Posted by Beermaster

I can see a big market for this from the Semi-pro world. Many people out there do not have the slightest understanding of arranging and horns let alone the limitations of range and stylistic options with articulations. Even other pro musician friends have asked for my help in the past to arrange horns for their tracks to there are a lot of people who would make use of an online service like this.

Obviously in the top league sessions with money and time not being a problem there isn't a need for this but there are a load of other people trying to make their personal album as good as it can be on a budget.

A good friend of mine runs an online sax solo recoring service and is doing quite well out of that.

I have to say that the idea of time and money not being an issue in the pro world is quite a misleading way of putting it! The top league you are talking about keeps on shrinking! I stand by my previous statement that I wouldnt use it.

[Bleek]

Thank you everyone for your responses. It's really invaluable in working out whether or not to spend the money to set this thing up.

I wonder if you're right in that possibly the semi-pro market is maybe more appropriate. I did wonder after i posted this if I was asking entirely the wrong people. I mean this place is full of people who love the process of recording and all the gear. This is probably not aimed at those sort of people. I guess its mainly for music producers who care less about the process and are more interested in the result.

Being situated in Australia I am very interested about providing this service for Asia, especially China and Singapore. Not many pro horn players!

Another interesting point is the question of union rates in countries being broken. How does that work I wonder....

[ssaudio]

Originally Posted by Bleek

Being situated in Australia I am very interested about providing this service for Asia, especially China and Singapore. Not many pro horn players!

Another interesting point is the question of union rates in countries being broken. How does that work I wonder....

I'm not at all sure about there being a shortage of horn players in China or the rest of Asia for that matter - but I'd imagine that if there is, there is a very good reason for it

As to union rates, well, you can charge what you like, but that won't mean anything over an international boundary - your price will have to stand up to localised scrutiny and be of value....

There are quite a few individuals already offering a service like this - drummers, guitarists, engineers etc... They are all in a simpler position where they are only charging for their own time and they have their own recording facility at no extra cost - I'm not sure how your models equates with these, but it seems to me that you would have a lot of overheads prior to invoicing...

[Beermaster]

Originally Posted by PhilE

I have to say that the idea of time and money not being an issue in the pro world is quite a misleading way of putting it! The top league you are talking about keeps on shrinking! I stand by my previous statement that I wouldnt use it.

What I mean is that if as some have said here you're prepared to pay for three session fees ( top shelf players mind ) in a good room with great mikes etc etc to get the result then you must have money and time on your hands.

Some pro's have projects with the time and the money for this some don't. Many more dedicated semi-pros want the best for their tracks within a limited budget.

As a horn player myself I can also say that I've heard tracks with terrible horn section sounds for all manner of reasons. A lot being simply that the players don't have the right sounds/abilities or the arrangements are bad.

I think this is a great idea and If its advertised well should be a winner.

Beer

[Mike Caffrey]

I thiknk it's certinaly viable for a certain niche.

It doesn't work for Dada arrangements (where the client say play "dada dada..."). THey require too much interaction.

It works well when parts a written out, however the arranger probably wats direct invlovement and has people he wants to use.

I don't know what the other contexts are, but they certainly exist. You'll need a few good credits to attract business.

If I was going to look for a weakness in the plan, it's that very few recordings need horns relative to something like drums or bass or guitar, so you targeting a small slice within a small slice.

[Bleek]

Again thank you for all your responses.

I am a session horn player so that's where I am coming from. The biggest problem with this whole idea is the interaction between the producer/engineer and the horn players. There are ways around it; ichat set ups connected to a simple stereo feed out but that is still relying on trust to an extent as the true sound won't be realised till the racks are delivered.

As for fees, the guys would have to get there usual session fee (AUD$250) plus $100 booking fee on top. So for a 3 piece section AUD$850 (about US$750, our dollar is high at the moment).

Again all these thoughts are really useful. Real time interaction is the one big stumbling block as i see it....

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Bleek

AAs for fees, the guys would have to get there usual session fee (AUD$250) plus $100 booking fee on top. So for a 3 piece section AUD$850 (about US$750, our dollar is high at the moment).

That's a huge amount of money for brass on a tune IMO. If it's done well and world class, it's fair, no doubt, but you will not find Mid-Line people willing to pay that. My experience is that they wouldn't pay $7500 for a COMPLETE finished CD - musicians, production, studio time, production, etc.. And the pro's want to be involved, so you loose that market. Unless you can do it for $250-300 per tune, including arranging/ copying/musicians, you're going to have trouble finding clients. That's just my opinion. Of course, I live in LA and there are unbelieveable amounts of extreeeeeeeeemly talented musicians that are struggling to get ANY kind of work on their respective axes.

[johnwayne]

Im thinking of doing a similar thing except offering all slide instruments (slide guitar, Dobro, Lap Steel, Pedal steel) and I will do all work involved so Im the only one who gets paid. Ill mainly be targeting the local scene and nearby.

Horns could be cool depending on who youre working with.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Bleek

Again thank you for all your responses.

I am a session horn player so that's where I am coming from. The biggest problem with this whole idea is the interaction between the producer/engineer and the horn players. There are ways around it; ichat set ups connected to a simple stereo feed out but that is still relying on trust to an extent as the true sound won't be realised till the racks are delivered.

As for fees, the guys would have to get there usual session fee (AUD$250) plus $100 booking fee on top. So for a 3 piece section AUD$850 (about US$750, our dollar is high at the moment).

Again all these thoughts are really useful. Real time interaction is the one big stumbling block as i see it....

I think you can come up with partial solutions, but you'll never overcome the interaction issue. I think you have to sell it as "ftp+paypal= horn section-headache" and you may have to do some work on spec.

If you think you can nail it without the client being there, agree on a price, cut the tracks and send them a mono MP3 to decide if they want to by the tracks. If you and your section have what it takes, you get paid enough of the time that you don't have to worry.