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Toft ATB user updates?
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timsmolens
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#1
25th July 2007
Old 25th July 2007
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Toft ATB user updates?

We have heard lots of first impression reviews from new owners. But can someone give us the " i have been using it for a few months now and...." update.

I am curious about the mic pre's... will they break up ( in a good way) if pushed too hard, like a Neve 1272 or telefunken V72 will?

How is the digital option?

What are your favorite and least favorite features of the console?

thanks in advance,
Tim
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25th July 2007
Old 25th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timsmolens View Post
We have heard lots of first impression reviews from new owners. But can someone give us the " i have been using it for a few months now and...." update.

I am curious about the mic pre's... will they break up ( in a good way) if pushed too hard, like a Neve 1272 or telefunken V72 will?


How is the digital option?


What are your favorite and least favorite features of the console?

1: I don't know. I use line ins only.
2: Nobody knows this. They haven't released the card.
3: Favorite feature? It looks like it sounds good and it does.
Least favorite ? NO METERBRIDGE. All those red LEDs lighting up. (I use tape).

As one of the pilot program owners, I believe I do have a right to offer my opinions and thoughts on the mixer. We tried to have this very discussion a while back and it got off track. Can we have an honest discussion about the Toft ATB ?
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25th July 2007
Old 25th July 2007
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"I am curious about the mic pre's... will they break up"
Yes.
"in a good way"
No
"like a Neve 1272 or telefunken V72"
Dream on, Brother.
"What are your favorite "
Easy, the EQ, followed by the looks.
"least favorite features"
I think there were some missed opportunities regarding features. I know there was a big premium on getting the sound at a certain price point. Little things that would make my life easier are:

Solo for monitor returns. (my biggest complaint)
That elusive digital i/o card.
A & B two track tape sends/returns.
0db detent on the submaster gain pots.
A calibrate button to switch the LED's between two levels. No biggie for me as I try not to look at them anyway.
Instrument DI on 1st 2 channels.
#4
25th July 2007
Old 25th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timsmolens View Post
We have heard lots of first impression reviews from new owners. But can someone give us the " i have been using it for a few months now and...." update.

I am curious about the mic pre's... will they break up ( in a good way) if pushed too hard, like a Neve 1272 or telefunken V72 will?

How is the digital option?

What are your favorite and least favorite features of the console?

thanks in advance,
Tim

1. I use it in a synth studio, line ins only.
2. No dig option yet, & I won't be getting it anyway because I already have good converters.
3. Favorite - It sounds really good and I love the EQ. I also really like the serviceable construction - modular channels and through-hole components! Least favorite - mostly a few minor quibbles about the ergonomics and feature set:
- Hard to tell if the buttons are depressed, they should have white collars around the base that disappear when depressed, and
- I wish there was a master volume control for the MON MIX buss before it gets sent to the main LR buss so you can adjust overall tape mon levels with one knob without changing live track listening levels. But this depends on how you use it, if you monitor everything including live tracks through your DAW returns, it's not an issue. And as it is, there are other work-arounds.
- Only one annoyance with the audio performance - the muting. Very hot signals can be slightly audible even if muted and not assigned to subgroups or main LR. But this has only been something that is occasionally noticed during setup or solo'ing, it doesn't actually affect tracking or mixing. Bottom line is it performs really well and I'm more than happy with the purchase.

DP
timsmolens
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Thanks for the replys. I am seriously considering getting this board. Are there other boards I should be looking at too in this price range that are comprable.

any more more user reviews of the Toft ATB are certianly welcome......
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timsmolens View Post
Thanks for the replys. I am seriously considering getting this board. Are there other boards I should be looking at too in this price range that are comprable.

any more more user reviews of the Toft ATB are certianly welcome......
I searched for over a year for a board with this combination of features, sonics, construction and price and everythig else I found got crossed off the list because of substantial shortcomings in at least one of those categories. So far I still haven't seen anything else that looks like it might have been a better choice. Of course, what's best for you depends on your application, but as you may have guessed I'm completely satisfied.

DP
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Wow 1 I really want this board. Have you summed a mix through it yet?
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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I have had the desk for a couple of weeks now and i must say i'm very pleased so far. I have only owned one desk before this one (Tascam M3500) so I haven't tried a lot of desks, but i can say for shure it sounds good!! the only thing i haven't been able to figure out is one of my reverb units only sends the fx to my left speaker while connected to the FX returns, but it works great if i connect them to my line ins.. strange?!! Do you guy's normaly conect reverbs etc to line input to have the opertunity to eq the effect??
Only thing i found a little negative at first but is natural because of the way mixers are build was that it's pretty high. I needed to lower the desk i have it on because it was way to high... check link:
Furniture for the Toft ATB Desk's...



I'm working with my own band now and if you like i can upload a sound example of the drums with and without EQ.. I you like i can make the example tonight or tomorrow:-)
#9
26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lionheart View Post
I have had the desk for a couple of weeks now and i must say i'm very pleased so far. I have only owned one desk before this one (Tascam M3500) so I haven't tried a lot of desks, but i can say for shure it sounds good!! the only thing i haven't been able to figure out is one of my reverb units only sends the fx to my left speaker while connected to the FX returns, but it works great if i connect them to my line ins.. strange?!! Do you guy's normaly conect reverbs etc to line input to have the opertunity to eq the effect??
Only thing i found a little negative at first but is natural because of the way mixers are build was that it's pretty high. I needed to lower the desk i have it on because it was way to high... check link:
Furniture for the Toft ATB Desk's...



I'm working with my own band now and if you like i can upload a sound example of the drums with and without EQ.. I you like i can make the example tonight or tomorrow:-)
sounds great to me. are you using the pre's on the board?
amd
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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I'm working with my own band now and if you like i can upload a sound example of the drums with and without EQ.. I you like i can make the example tonight or tomorrow:-)[/QUOTE]




That woud be awesome!! If possible, could you record a vocal with the desk pre's?
#11
26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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So people are still prepared to pay for this board after this ?

Can we have an honest discussion about the Toft ATB ?

People complain about bad calibration, crosstalk and signales going through when channesl are muted, and he responds like that? Unbelievable to me.

Didnt they fund this venture by taking pre-payments for the boards?

Gustav
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalomaniac View Post
sounds great to me. are you using the pre's on the board?
I'm only using the Desk's line in..
#13
26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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My guess is that the precieved cross talk issues are actually some solder (lead free) issues on the faders that have slipped through QC.

I have a pilot board that had this problem. I thought I had cross talk because one of my subgroup faders was passing audio even with the fader pulled all the way down. Once I discovered it and replaced the fader, no issues.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some glitches on a new production board - especially at this price point. To put things in prespective, I've had issues with boards costing 10X.

The thing to watch is "on going" problems and customer support. Since I fixed the fader I've had no other glitches (and customer support was good). The lead free cold solder joint issue is something that I would expect to rear it's ugly head in the first month (or less) of operation. I've been going strong for 6 months since and all is good.
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Jim,

That is a great offer. I really hope that someone near you will bring in a mixer for these tests. I cannot understand why I can't get appropriate signals out of the direct outs to track to tape. To get up to around -7 to -5 on the machine meters (with DBX enabled) I am looking at clip lights and over LEDS everywhere on the mixer. Flat out distortion in the mixer on the way back in unless I attenuate the channel. The machine is calibrated to spec.

One of the guys over at Tascam forums is sending you the cards from his MS-16 to upgrade. I would like to do that myself. I can't help but wonder if it would make any difference considering that I can't get the tracking levels up.

The channel crosstalk could prove ti be problematic if someone has tracks with material that will be muted during mixing. I've run into that.
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labs View Post
So people are still prepared to pay for this board after this ?

Can we have an honest discussion about the Toft ATB ?

People complain about bad calibration, crosstalk and signales going through when channesl are muted, and he responds like that? Unbelievable to me.

Didnt they fund this venture by taking pre-payments for the boards?

Gustav

Considering that thread is from FEBRUARY 2007 and any Toft ATB shipped before JUNE 2007 (the official release date) was specifically in the 'beta' run (I believe people got deep discounts on the first 100 consoles for being part of this pilot program to work out kinks), it doesn't sound like a valid point. Not just an invalid point, but very unfair to Toft/PMI because it's just putting unsubstantiated fear into peoples minds based on false facts. Again, the person in this thread would have gotten his pilot program console 6 months before they officially shipped to dealers (and subsequentyly end users paying full price and expecting a full run product).
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Pianodano....that seems really weird. I'm thinking outloud here but....

Since the D/O is unbalanced and assuming your tape machine is balanced, do you have pin 2 and pin 3 on the tape machine tied together? This would be my first guess as to the problem.
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pianodano View Post
To get up to around -7 to -5 on the machine meters (with DBX enabled) I am looking at clip lights and over LEDS everywhere on the mixer.
I think you might be misinterpreting the red lights. As far as I know they are not 'clip' or 'over' leds. Red is good on this board. I believe that I calibrated to hit red when I've got approx 15db of headroom left going into my Myteks.

I got in on the beta program. I love the board... It was the first console worth a shit that I could afford. Listen to a track in PTools, sounds fine... bus it out to a channel on the ATB... instantly sounds better... click on the EQ... sounds even better... turn a few knobs... even better! You get the picture...

Yes I've got a few channels (2) that need fixing due to the soldering issue... All that is supposed to have been ironed out with the official run. I haven't had a chance to fix it yet, cause I've been makin' records!
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Last edited by Kris; 9th August 2007 at 09:10 PM.. Reason: my tiny 'complaint' was user error...
#18
26th July 2007
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Who knows ? I spent quite a while on the phone with REDCO when I ordered the cables. I may have even faxed them the pinouts for the mixer and recorder. I'm pretty sure I did. I just need someone, somewhere that's using it for TAPE to chime in.

Danny
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I am offering to do full tests on my Audio Precision if these tests are not made available to the prospective buyer. If anyone wants to supply one, I will do full THD+noise, IMD, CCIF IMD, phase response, frequency reponse, a map of the EQ curves, noise vs amplitude, noise vs frequency, and crosstalk vs frequency.

This can then be published on the forum for all to view. We can never have enough information about a new product.

Jim Williams
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here's a small one: http://www.nighthawkpublications.com...ianriver03.jpg
#20
26th July 2007
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LOL. Yep. Last week I repatched everything back through the digital mixer for 3 days. After the three days I repatched into the Toft. Instant balls. The digital mixer is nice. It's clear as a bell. But the meat is readily apparent when using the Toft.

I just want to know for sure that when I go to a MCI 24 track, that the mixer will work for the hot levels printed to tape nowadays. This is kind of the test phase. I had planned to get a second Toft (24 channel) and keep the 32 for the keyboards and DAW.
#21
26th July 2007
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Ok I don't get it now pianodano...so is the Toft levels weak and distorted or are they ok now...2 posts later?
#22
26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Ok I don't get it now pianodano...so is the Toft levels weak and distorted or are they ok now...2 posts later?

I guess I didn't make myself clear.

Subbing a digital mixer into the Toft for DAW playback. AOK.
IE: everything digital AOK

Sending Toft direct outs to a analog tape recorder which operates a +4. Not so good. Sending stereo mix to the Otari 2 track. Not so good.
#23
26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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It seems everyone loves this board. could it be quieter...yes. Could it have more features...yes. Who is complaining about the noise and crosstalk? Could we balance everything...yes. Could we add what Kris wants...yes.

It all about money. If Jim Williams thinks we have issues with design and does not like the design, then he can build a console and sell it, or he can offer all you guys mods.

The first Pilot Program run had some QC issues...they are fixed. That is why we did the program!

The second run was pretty darn good, and the third run is even better, but it is what it is for the money. We are not changing the design or feature set. If you want more, then look to another console.

It seems to me, the users are pretty happy with the quality and sound. Of course everyone wants more, but guys, this is what we offer today. We appreciate all the great press we are getting, and the support from all you guys have been fantastic.

All I can ask is that you understand this is a budget priced console. I think you get a lot more quality for the price than you expected, but at that price this is what we offer.

Maybe later, a more upscale version will be offered. Who knows, the A-Range console may be more than anyone wants to spend...but that will be then. Right now, we think the ATB Series offers a lot for the money. Is it perfect, well no... but then again it fits a lot of what people wanted and sounds great!
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timsmolens
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Alan or anyone,

So how do we work around this direct out signal issue. I really want this board but if the direct out cannot produce enough level that would be a big problem for me.
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26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanhyatt View Post
It seems everyone loves this board. could it be quieter...yes. Could it have more features...yes. Who is complaining about the noise and crosstalk? Could we balance everything...yes. Could we add what Kris wants...yes.
Most boards in this price range don't even have a built in talkback at all. So I'm not complaining, just saying that's ALL I can find fault with the console!

timsmolens, as far as the 'direct out' issue... I think you'll find there is none... It seems as if only one user has mentioned this 'issue'... and it's probably user error, or an issue with that single board, or what it's connected to.
#26
26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timsmolens View Post
Alan or anyone,

So how do we work around this direct out signal issue. I really want this board but if the direct out cannot produce enough level that would be a big problem for me.
What issue? Have you used the board and are having a problem? So many have them and no one has called to tell us that there is not enough level, so I am at a loss here. Out of 750 units sold so far, no one has said anything to us. Remember, this console is not for everyone. It is not the answer to all things, but I just do not know of any issue with level.
#27
26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Most boards in this price range don't even have a built in talkback at all. So I'm not complaining, just saying that's ALL I can find fault with the console!

timsmolens, as far as the 'direct out' issue... I think you'll find there is none... It seems as if only one user has mentioned this 'issue'... and it's probably user error, or an issue with that single board, or what it's connected to.
I know your not complaining, I just used your name as I know you would like to see a Dim...My point was, we could do that as well, and more, but price goes up. You have been a big supporter Kris, please do not think my comment was a negative...it was not, just a reference to make a point. I know you did the console...
#28
26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timsmolens View Post
Alan or anyone,

So how do we work around this direct out signal issue. I really want this board but if the direct out cannot produce enough level that would be a big problem for me.
No D/O issues for me. It's plenty hot with faders @ unity gain. I've tried recording with the faders pushed all the way up and it looks better on my recorder's meters but of course, I need to trim the returns back down on playback. Since it's a HD recorder, the few extra db makes little difference.
#29
26th July 2007
Old 26th July 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
timsmolens, as far as the 'direct out' issue... I think you'll find there is none... It seems as if only one user has mentioned this 'issue'... and it's probably user error, or an issue with that single board, or what it's connected to.
So you're confident that one of the following must be true

1: I don't have a clue what I doing
2: Redco doesn't have a clue how to make cables when provided with pinouts
3: My ATR is whacked and not lined up.
4: My board is whacked on all channels.

Hmmm. And you're basing your opinion on a tape based system or what ?
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26th July 2007
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Definately not #1... for one, I don't know you at all, and even the smartest folks can make honest mistakes... good luck with it... I hope to have a nice 2" to plug in down the road a bit...

I'm basing my opinion along the same lines as Alan's logic... 750 current users... and out of them I'm sure there's more than a handful using tape machines. If there was an inherent problem with the board it would have been known and addressed by now...
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