Toft ATB user updates?

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by pianodano

So you're confident that one of the following must be true

1: I don't have a clue what I doing
2: Redco doesn't have a clue how to make cables when provided with pinouts
3: My ATR is whacked and not lined up.
4: My board is whacked on all channels.

Hmmm. And you're basing your opinion on a tape based system or what ?

Did you call our office and speak to Dave Brown or Brent Casey about this? I know we have lots of guys using 2" machines and no one has said they are having trouble. Perhaps you should call our office and have a word. Maybe they can help you.

[pianodano]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

Did you call our office and speak to Dave Brown or Brent Casey about this? I know we have lots of guys using 2" machines and no one has said they are having trouble. Perhaps you should call our office and have a word. Maybe they can help you.

Yes, I did speak with Dave last winter. But not concerning the direct outs. Redco got the return cables wrong on the Otari 2 track machine so I had to resolder a couple of wires. The machine has balanced ins and unbalanced outs. At the time I was waiting on the headstack relap so I was wiring in everything else.

[timsmolens]

Thanks for all your help Alan. I am definitely leaning towards an ATB-32.
Alan, are you allowed to comment on a release date for the digital option?

thanks

[kats]

Hmmm. And you're basing your opinion on a tape based system or what

Thing is most guys hit their DAWS alot harder than tape machines (unfortunately). If your hitting your DAW at like -6DBFS, that would be like hitting the tape machine at +12dB or something- IOW, I would think that the issue would be more concernable to DAW users as opposed to tape users.

I'm telling ya, it's something stupid...been there done that many times

[pianodano]

Originally Posted by Kris

Definately not #1... for one, I don't know you at all, and even the smartest folks can make honest mistakes... good luck with it... I hope to have a nice 2" to plug in down the road a bit...

I'm basing my opinion along the same lines as Alan's logic... 750 current users... and out of them I'm sure there's more than a handful using tape machines. If there was an inherent problem with the board it would have been known and addressed by now...

Well I'm stumped and I hope you guys are right. Probably is someone using it for tape besides me, but they have not come forward yet.

Maybe I learned it wrong 25 years ago, but one of the first things I learned to do was to calibrate the console meters and levels as follows, so I didn't have to crane my neck looking at the machine.

On a balanced console, feed a 1.23v into a channel, trim as necessary to set fader at unity. Assign channel to stereo bus. Set the master at unity. Measure output. Should read 1.23v. Assign the channel to a buss. Measure output voltage. It should read 1.23v. Channel meter should be adjusted to show 0vu, bus meter 0vu and master meters 0vu. When done across the board, this ensures that console buss meters match the ATR, if the recorder is lined up, until something changes. Worked for the other consoles I've worked on. (hasn't been but 3 though). This is the 4th.

[TAVD]

Originally Posted by kats

I'm telling ya, it's something stupid...been there done that many times

Is there a 120/240v switch on the psu?

[pianodano]

Originally Posted by TAVD

Is there a 120/240v switch on the psu?

Evidently according to the manual. But it has never even occured to me to check that, after all the work PMI did on the board. All the voltages show ok on the front of the psu. Do you really think I should pull it out of the rack and check ?

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by pianodano

Evidently according to the manual. But it has never even occured to me to check that, after all the work PMI did on the board. All the voltages show ok on the front of the psu. Do you really think I should pull it out of the rack and check ?

No need for that, all units in the USA are shipped at 115V and we test them that way...

Call Dave Brown or Brent again, maybe they can find out what your issue is.

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by timsmolens

Thanks for all your help Alan. I am definitely leaning towards an ATB-32.
Alan, are you allowed to comment on a release date for the digital option?

thanks

As soon a Centrance finishes the card, it will be released. They are the ones who are building the card, but talk about slow.....

[kats]

Well since your in answering mood

I'm desparate for a meterbridge...the desk is in a live room!

[lionheart]

Originally Posted by kats

Well since your in answering mood

I'm desparate for a meterbridge...the desk is in a live room!

Yeah!!.. Where's my Burrito, Where's my burrito.. Doh i mean, Meterbridge:-)

[Muso]

Our new ATB-16 has a sollder issue and one group of eight channels has to be returned. I will report back in regards to how well the servicing / turn around etc. goes.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Muso

Our new ATB-16 has a sollder issue and one group of eight channels has to be returned. I will report back in regards to how well the servicing / turn around etc. goes.

Damn! Quite a few "issues" with the ATB from knobs to crosstalk to your "issues". I wonder if these problems are shipping related, or should PMI be spending six hours rather than three hours on each unit before they send them out? I really want very much to like this unit! What about Jim Williams offer to "test" an ATB, anyone in SoCal interested? How 'bout PMI?

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by Muso

Our new ATB-16 has a sollder issue and one group of eight channels has to be returned. I will report back in regards to how well the servicing / turn around etc. goes.

I asked our office about this. The only ATB16 that has an ATR# is a guy name Roy out of Seattle...I want to make sure you have contacted our office. If you have a console and an issue, it seems our office does not know about it.

So if you are in San Francisco, we have nothing on you in our system. I want to be sure you are in the system. Send me your name and info so I can check this out.... call our office or email me alan@pmiaudio.com

[planet red]

I bought a pilot run 16 channel console and wasnt terribly impressed. FOR THE MONEY it was good.. but for some reason (I got all excited from forum hype) I was thinking it was going to be ground breaking.. which isnt going to happen as its a budget mixer.. Everyone wants it to be more than it is..

I bought it to try mixing OTB and honestly preferred ITB.. Maybe its just the way I work but I just felt like it brought down my overall quality a little. Mixes sounded a little less open and more compressed. Not really in a good gelled way, just more veiled and smeared. It also didnt keep the subs lows (20 to 50hz) as large and deep sounding.

I recently traded the console to another gearslutz member.

Dont get me wrong, if you need a mixer and dont have much to spend its great.. but thinking its a magic box to help your mixes get to a new level (for ITB guys) isnt in my opinion the case..

[Muso]

Originally Posted by planet red

I bought a pilot run 16 channel console and wasnt terribly impressed. FOR THE MONEY it was good.. but for some reason (I got all excited from forum hype) I was thinking it was going to be ground breaking.. which isnt going to happen as its a budget mixer.. Everyone wants it to be more than it is..

I bought it to try mixing OTB and honestly preferred ITB.. Maybe its just the way I work but I just felt like it brought down my overall quality a little. Mixes sounded a little less open and more compressed. Not really in a good gelled way, just more veiled and smeared. It also didnt keep the subs lows (20 to 50hz) as large and deep sounding.

I recently traded the console to another gearslutz member.

Dont get me wrong, if you need a mixer and dont have much to spend its great.. but thinking its a magic box to help your mixes get to a new level (for ITB guys) isnt in my opinion the case..

I know what you mean about the 20-50hz thing. I did a test and compared the direct sound of a mix through our soundcards versus the same going through two channels from the desk (both monitored directly into a dangerous ST) and it definitely registered a slight loss in the lower frequences. However having said that we felt that it did have more 'air' on top (without punching in any additional eq etc). If I can grab a sec and I'll do an A/B comparing a recent mix summed on the desk v direct from the soundcards and post it.

[planet red]

Yeah I just felt like the overall headroom of the thing wasnt great. The bottom got smaller the harder you hit it. To me the 'air' of the mix was mostly from the rolled off low end.

I really like boosting a lot in the sub frequencies and felt like the board collapsed a little with it, where as in protools the bottom had more space.

Honestly though I dont have any expierence with budget mixers. I've pretty much always been in the box and used good consoles in other studios. So compared to a mackie its probably amazing since thats the price range that its in.

[TAVD]

Moving from a similarly priced digital console to the ATB, my experience with the low frequencies is just the opposite. I found quite a bit of the bass that I was missing with the previous console, gave up quite a lot of features and feel it was worth it. I do agree that pushing many channels through the console, there's a point where the mix collapses but pulling the levels back solves that for me.

Muso & planet red, for your testing, did you plug into the line ins then send it to the mix bus? Did you also try sending it to the groups instead? What about the monitor returns to mix or group? The reason I ask is because I'm hearing differences (some big) depending on the routing.

[tengu]

Can anyone offer some feedback on the eq's compared to those in ATC-2.

I am not really a fan of the eq's in the ATC-2.

[Alex Wyler]

There is actually a very big problem with the consoles that should have been worked out after the pilot program beta test versions.

NONE OF THE KNOB'S CENTER POSITION MARKINGS LINE UP WITH THE CENTER DETENTS OF THE KNOBS

That means that wherever I set my knob positions at, they are not accurate.

So I know what you people are thinking...it's an analog board, use your ears!

But then why put markings on the knobs and dots and numbers on the console's top plate at all? If we are just goingto use our ears then the eq should just be labelled - High, Mid and Low with no numbers or dots. And the pan knobs should not have any white lines on them because none of them line up with center!

I contacted Toft about this. I asked what can be done to remedy this problem.

I was told that they have fixed this problem now by switching to a different kind of pot for the knobs.

But...how does that help me?

Why didn't Toft offer to send a tech over to my place to exchange all the pots for the new ones?

is it because the pilot program is still going...maybe they are just not calling it that?

I think that a company that is over a year overdue in delievering a product could get it right the second time could they not?

Does Toft Audio need three strikes before they are out?

How do you treat customers that support you but purchased bogus boards? Do you leave them to the wind or do you offer to update the product they spent the same money on as the next run of people will spend on the ones that resolve this issue?

Can you sleep at night and tell yourself that those people should be fine because they bought what they bought at that point in time while you knew well ahead of releasing them from the warehouse that this exact problem would have to be resolved?

Had I known that none of the knobs lined up, i would have not bought the console. Why was the fact that none of the knobs line up not in the literature on the website?

I was misinformed as well as everyone else and Toft Audio should be fixing this problem on everyones board shouldn't they?

Oh and Alan....about delivering a console at a certain price point....even the knobs on a Mackie 1604 line up with center detents.

Customer service?

[ProFool]

no problems with the knobs here though (serial 002pp) but incase you have use thumb and finger to take em off with some presure and put them back on...

oh after 7 months my only hassle seems to be the low levels i get back in my digi 002 but that has nothing to do with the console i believe... my other convertors works just fine.

Alan, do you have any info on the measurements (hight) of the meterbridge please?
i need to find out how much space i should keep between the desk and the border where my computer screens come on my new furniture. im having it custom made but dont want to end up with to little space once the meterbridge is placed on the console.

regards ;-)

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

There is actually a very big problem with the consoles that should have been worked out after the pilot program beta test versions.

NONE OF THE KNOB'S CENTER POSITION MARKINGS LINE UP WITH THE CENTER DETENTS OF THE KNOBS

That means that wherever I set my knob positions at, they are not accurate.

So I know what you people are thinking...it's an analog board, use your ears!

But then why put markings on the knobs and dots and numbers on the console's top plate at all? If we are just goingto use our ears then the eq should just be labelled - High, Mid and Low with no numbers or dots. And the pan knobs should not have any white lines on them because none of them line up with center!

I contacted Toft about this. I asked what can be done to remedy this problem.

I was told that they have fixed this problem now by switching to a different kind of pot for the knobs.

But...how does that help me?

Why didn't Toft offer to send a tech over to my place to exchange all the pots for the new ones?

is it because the pilot program is still going...maybe they are just not calling it that?

I think that a company that is over a year overdue in delievering a product could get it right the second time could they not?

Does Toft Audio need three strikes before they are out?

How do you treat customers that support you but purchased bogus boards? Do you leave them to the wind or do you offer to update the product they spent the same money on as the next run of people will spend on the ones that resolve this issue?

Can you sleep at night and tell yourself that those people should be fine because they bought what they bought at that point in time while you knew well ahead of releasing them from the warehouse that this exact problem would have to be resolved?

Had I known that none of the knobs lined up, i would have not bought the console. Why was the fact that none of the knobs line up not in the literature on the website?

I was misinformed as well as everyone else and Toft Audio should be fixing this problem on everyones board shouldn't they?

Oh and Alan....about delivering a console at a certain price point....even the knobs on a Mackie 1604 line up with center detents.

Customer service?

Only being someone who is interested in this console and is observing what unfolds prior to deciding whether to purchase or pass, I have to say I agree with your frustration. In reading the threads pertaining to the ATB, my observation is that Mr .Reid and Hyatt seem to be dealing with the complaints in a responsible and professional fashion. That aside, I feel that "superficial" problems like the misalignment of knobs should have easily been noted during the "three hour going over of the consoles" that apparently is done prior to delivery of each unit. That oversight casts much more serious questions and doubts about the quality control in China and obviously the overall quality control of the ATB in general. One is compelled to wonder about the manufacturing quality and integrity of this unit itself! The ray of hope as I said in the beginning is the willingness of PMI to accomodate and communicate with it's customers and that, in my estimation is a great and promising start, that will resolve the product's "growing pains" As I said, I am interested in the ATB in principle and I really hope for all involved that these "problems" will all be resolved. I am in no way affiliated with PMI, I'm just a GearSlut with nothing better to do on a Sunday morning but sip an espresso and "nose around" the forums..............peace?

[pianodano]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Considering that thread is from FEBRUARY 2007 and any Toft ATB shipped before JUNE 2007 (the official release date) was specifically in the 'beta' run (I believe people got deep discounts on the first 100 consoles for being part of this pilot program to work out kinks), it doesn't sound like a valid point. Not just an invalid point, but very unfair to Toft/PMI because it's just putting unsubstantiated fear into peoples minds based on false facts. Again, the person in this thread would have gotten his pilot program console 6 months before they officially shipped to dealers (and subsequentyly end users paying full price and expecting a full run product).

Well Golly. So let me get this straight.

The logic and thrust of your reply is . . . . . .We pilot program owners have NOTHING VALID to say, our facts are false AND, we were dumb a**es for having bought into the pilot run for really expecting a fully functioning, built to specification mixer. And we first buyers should assume that the pilot programs stated purpose "to get feedback from the inital owners" was a lie ?

That about cover it ?

Man I gotta find out if you're some kind of dealer, because if you are, I sure as fuuck would'nt buy anything from you. dfegad

This line of thinking has sent me off the deep end. You are the second or maybe third whatever that's come in now trying to tell some of us that we don't know what we are talking about.

For what it's worth, I have been in business many years and have dealt with some of the most demanding and difficult of customers. Let me tell you something you evidently don't know.

Details and attention to them is what convinces customers that they have bought or did not buy something of fine quality and worthy of discerning customers ownership.

Details like these:

When I opened my 32 channel mixer and got it out of the box, I was immediately dismayed by the lack of attention to cosmetic details. Hundreds of sticky, nasty fingerprints which covered every square inch of the mixer.

As I began to clean it, I realized it was covered in some kind of black sooty film. The wood trim was also filthy. I spent the better part of a day cleaning all of it off.

Two of the metal work panels miss lining up or mating with each other by nearly an 1/8 of an inch. If it was a sidewalk, you could trip on the mismatch.

Lots of scatches and dings across the front armrest.

Dozens of pots that do not line up with the detents. Numerous pots that require disimilar amounts of rotational torque to turn.

But we/I have never really complained about those things.

But now, I for one, am totally over the "you bought the pilot program run so you gotta expect flaws" way of thinking, OR, "we can build you a real mixer for 50K or so".

I don't think they have the appropriate smileys here to let you know how I really feel about these statements and I would like to continue to remain a member here, so I'll try to get control now.

Do you get the jist of it ?

[YZ!]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

All I can ask is that you understand this is a budget priced console. I think you get a lot more quality for the price than you expected, but at that price this is what we offer.

Hmmm...

Sorry if I may sound harsh, but a console with no provisions for monitor (tape return) soloing is useless in a proper studio; seems built by people who are not familiar with what a multitrack recording console is supposed to offer as basic features.

Remember that at Toft's site it is stated:

"There is no doubt that the Toft ATB Console was designed to be used in professional studios."

If the group monitors are used as tape return monitors in order to obtain the possibility of soloing, then this board is reduced to an 8-track board.

So for me, the blurb at the site should read:

"there is no doubt that the Toft ATB console was designed to be used in 8-track studios".

I also see a few un-necessary things in this board that add to the cost but makes no sense at all, like the group output level pot; if the group output is too hot or soft, just use the fader to adjust it... and why is it available on only 6 of the 8 groups, if this "feature" was deemed necessary?

I am not talking about build quality, specs, competing products or old feuds here; just the basic feature set for a professional board and this is where i find that the ATB missed a great opportunity.

[YZ!]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

NONE OF THE KNOB'S CENTER POSITION MARKINGS LINE UP WITH THE CENTER DETENTS OF THE KNOBS

That means that wherever I set my knob positions at, they are not accurate.

Oh, I haven't seen that before I posted my last message...

So after 22 years Trident/Toft are still having the same problems?

In 1985 I've bought a Series 65 board that had the same "characteristic"... and the reply from their representative (in person, right in front of me) was:

"what did you expect from a board at such a low price point? we could have avoided this "problem" if we used pots with no center detents, but then you would have to center them by ear"

To which I replied that if they were going to use center-detented pots, the least they could do was to use pots that detented at the real center and not with a 1dB difference from side to side... making the non-detented pots a desirable thing.

But time passes and the problems and responses don't, as we see:

--------------
Originally Posted by alanhyatt
All I can ask is that you understand this is a budget priced console. I think you get a lot more quality for the price than you expected, but at that price this is what we offer.
--------------

[Jonboy79]

I just want to give some kudos to Alan, he's always helpful and you just don't find many people like him that represent their companies so well. I've even seen this guy help someone on another board get an led replaced for some really low end budget gear, so can anyone really complain about this companies customer service? Good luck to everyone with their boards and I hope to be able to afford mine within the next few months.

[Zarathustra]

Sheesh, tough crowd. I'd buy one just to put my cranky old 70's Flex-Mix out of it's misery.

Z

[alanhyatt]

Yeah, tough crowd, but we never expected to please everyone, and at some point you have tell some of these people that perhaps the ATB is not the console for them.

This to Alex...I have never heard from you on any issue. Have you ever called our office to tell us about this issue?

Come on Alex, why all the attitude? You could have simply sent me or our company an email, or a phone call and we would be happy to try and help you, but we can't come to your home to adjust some knobs. That is shown how to do on our web site if you had looked or asked us. With splined shafts, they will never be perfect anyway, but we do the best we can.

It seems some of you want everything put into this console you would find in a board costing some $30K. That just can't happen. It is what it is, no excuses. We keep updating and improving where we can, but you just can not have it all at that price.

Sorry!

[Alex Wyler]

Alan,

If you look in the other Toft ATB thread currently going, the one that's many pages long, you will realize that not only have you heard from me but several others on this issue and more.

I have been in touch with others who feel that the knobs are an issue and should be adressed.

If you have a solution for us, please share it and post any links to information that would help us to adjust all our knobs to line up with the detents as best as they can.

Thanks Alan

P.S. The console and it's equalizer sound great (for the money)

[YZ!]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

It seems some of you want everything put into this console you would find in a board costing some $30K. That just can't happen.

I can't talk for the others, but solo on all monitor returns wouldn't make it cost that much, specially if paired with the cost reduction of not implementing the buss 1-6 level pots...

Remember that I am talking about a basic feature found in any multitrack console, and not about "improvements", extra facilities or the wishes of someone with a very particular need.

In terms of features, the ATB as it is but with solo on monitors would be a complete pro board.

Yes you could use better materials, better finish, better etceteras (not that I find any need) but then the costs would really escalate.

But all of this is moot: the board is finished and shipping and there are people buying it.

Nevermind that they will have to work around the lack of proper monitoring, thus not having the full benefit of working with a real recording console.