Bass guitar recording

[mr. torture]

The type of music I do is 80's Metal. Some bands for reference are, Ozzy, Accept, Judas Priest, Sabbath, Maiden etc.

I am currently working on capturing a good bass tone. This is the chain:

BC Rich custom shop Warlock Bass > Ampeg SVT-3 Pro > Ampeg 1-15 Cabinet > RE-20 > Great River Preamp > Distressor.

The bass comes out pretty good in the low end, but notes in the upper register seem to get lost. Maintaining a consistant uniformed level of all notes / strings is a problem I cannot seem to fix.

My room is treated using Ethan's designs, using rigid fiberglass and assorted panels. I also have aurlex bass traps in the corners of the room. The room is about 12' x 15' in size.

The player is a finger player, with over 20 years of experience. The problem is at my end, trying to capture a uniform level that cut's through the mix.

My guitar sounds are typical 80's, light on their own, thin but crunchy and fit the mix perfectly. Drums are BFD.

I guess I am looking for some advice as to mic placement, amplifier settings, alternatives to my current chain. I thank you all in advance for any suggestions you may be able to provide.

[Kiwiburger]

Standard internet advice is that it's all in the fingers, blah, blah. I'm a guitar player, keyboard player who plays bass like a guitar player, and wants it to sound as consistent as my keyboard samples. In other words, i'm not really a bass player, and i'm very hard to please with bass sounds. I play with a pick, because I haven't got the time to learn finger bass and be as tight as I want to be. And also the bass players I like the most played with a pick.

So my opinion is not worth much compared to the amazing session players who can pick up a crap bass and sound amazing. So this is really my advice for making an inconsistent bass sound consistent:

I find the choice of bass, strings and pickups to be critical. If the wood has dead spots, and if the strings have wierd harmonics and rattles then it's just not going to please me. I've had very bad luck in finding bass guitars that work for me. Maybe your problems come from the bass, or the strings or the pickups, or the setup of any/all of those. I go for flatwound strings, and I have been amazed at how much variation there is between different makes of flatwound. Possibly you need to experiment with differnet brands of strings.

I know some people will say that a poor workman blames his tools, and probably that correct. But in my experience, I can't get consistent sounds out of the wrong bass or the wrong strings. Sorry to labour the point, but for me personally it's was the big issue, and i'm happy to have found what works for me.

If the source is good, from there on I think the secret to good bass is a simple, high quality, clean DI signal as a foundation. Your Great River should be very capable of this. (I know it's not the distorted tone you want, but bear with me).

A clean, uncompressed, DI signal will expose every weakness of the bass and the player. If you player is used to hiding bad playing behind a distorted amp, this might freak him out. But in the interest of consistency, see if you can get him to track a good clean signal - with no amp and no compression. It will make him work harder - trying to play more evenly and cleanly.

It's also easier to edit and comp the good parts together with a clean DI signal. Tuning problems can be fixed at this stage if necessary.

After you've got a good clean DI track sounding good, you can reamp it for the distorted amp tone. It should work a lot better, because the signal is more consistent to start with. If necessary, you can make corrections with eq or compression plugins before the signal hits the amp. You can then take your time experiment with mic positions and compression settings after the fact, and maybe blend it in with the DI track.

IMO, if you can't get a good DI signal, you haven't got a hope of getting a good amp signal. Because the amp, cab, room & mics can all add problems. Many people just use DI bass - but I really prefer the sound of an amp'd up bass. But my keyboard bass samples sound so good and consistent, I have to resort to tricks to clean up my sloppy bass playing.

Maybe that isn't good advice, but it's works for me.

[jigsawlogic]

...it's called Sansamp RBI. A 1-space rackmouint dealy. Capable of giving you almost any bass tone you want. To split the 3% difference between the RBI and a megbux chain is an exercise in diminshing returns...you will be a happy man, until you save up the next $2000 to go one better. Seriously, some of the best bang for the buck I've ever found in getting good bass happening.

Haven't used a REDDI yet, but gets a lot of drool spottage from people here. It makes Pavlov happy.

Supposedly the U5 is good too...but people here shit on Avalon until their bowels contract painfully from the void their determination has created. Haven't used one, so can't comment.

But I can vouch for the RBI...a really good piece of kit. And it's not a strain on the wallet either. Let us know what you decide on!

[jigsawlogic]

quick question...when u say that the notes in the high registers aren't happening, is that also what you hear in the room with your rig?

Or is that just how it comes out after being recorded?

[camerondye]

If the tone coming out of his amp is what you like and you aren't getting it with your current setup, I would think using a different mic would help. I know people like the RE-20 on bass but I would try some other mics you have. Also, record the direct sound also, eq it, and mix it in with it. I have played BC Rich basses in the past and it seems as if, at least the few I've played, that the D & G strings were a lower volume than the E & A strings. Have him slide up and play the fills higher on the E & A strings instead of going up to the D & G strings as a test. My old musicman stingray did that also, it was annoying. It is possible that it is his bass/technique because your setup seems fine. Get a good direct box to send the signal to your DAW and to his amp and see what happens. Really listen when he is playing, because it doesn't sound as if it is you but you never know. Also, the SVT-3Pro doesn't have a compressor on it. Is he using a compressor in his setup, hit it harder on the comp. I have a DBX 160A, and it would even out anything I think. Hope things turn around for you, getting a great bass sound can be really tough. I think of the bands you mentioned, I would go after Bob Daisley's tone on the first 2 ozzy albums...they really filled up the space. He played a P-bass, and they rock for recording that type of music. They cut right through and are really easy to mix in.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Actually a 15" cab is fine....the absolute best recording bass rig is a mid 60s Ampeg fliptop which has a 15. I'd question the SVT 3 head, but that's another story. Most of the bands you listed above recorded with either a fliptop or full SVT rig. The trick to recording bass is a DI. Run a DI in addition to the amp. The amp gets the growl and air and the DI let's you keep the punch. You can compress the DI signal and do a lot of things to it and mix in the amp to taste. Basses are notorious for certain notes getting lost. That's why proper compression is a must for bass recording. There are a zillion posts on how to do that and what setting to use on what compressors.

later,

m

[pan60]

Originally Posted by zaza2

This is so simple.......you need 10 inch speakers if you are recording bass, anything larger than that the detail is muddy and gets lost, i have been down that road many mnay times. 10s are the best for micing bass, works every time.

Ampeg 1-15 Cabinet <<< This is a large problem

bull shit!
absolutely nothing wrong with 15''
i do not know much about the Ampeg SVT-3 as i not ever had one in here, but although the re-20 is among one of my favorite mic's it my not be fast enough for what you are wanting, as in it is not a supper fast mic.

also what speaker do you have in the B-15 cab?
i just did some bass track last week with a P-style G&L bass to a B-15, a RE-20 and into a Great river, all went great.
i hope you get it worked out

[allencollins]

just plug into a neve style pre
skip the amp

[mr. torture]

Possibly you need to experiment with differnet brands of strings.

I agree, I have thought about flatwounds. Might be time to give them a try.

it's called Sansamp RBI.

I have had sansamp's in the past, they never gave me much of a good sound.

quick question...when u say that the notes in the high registers aren't happening, is that also what you hear in the room with your rig?

Or is that just how it comes out after being recorded?

What I hear in the room isn't what I hear on tape. I think my room is about as good as it's ever going to get. Based on Ethan's designs, it's not bad. Treated ceilings, bass traps, tons of rigid fiberglass panels constructed.

using a different mic would help

I thought about that as well, I have a 421, 57 and a AT 4033.

Ampeg 1-15 Cabinet <<< This is a large problem

Really?

Actually a 15" cab is fine

Thats what I thought. It's a brand new cabinet, american made.

it my not be fast enough for what you are wanting

Interesting, different mic's may be the answer. Along with, as others suggested, running a DI.

just plug into a neve style pre
skip the amp

Well, the great river is about as good as I can get. For the moment..

[Nu-tra]

Grab a SDC condenser like a 451 or whatever you got and tape it to the re20 but align the phase. I usually mic my speaker from about 4-6 inches away enough for the bass wave to develop with the 451 side pointing at the middle. This will give you the definition in the upper registers.
Try that 421 you might like that better for the bass tone you are after along with a sdc condencer or even the sm57 next to it for the bite. I would also use a DI as well. The Beta 52 is good for this as well.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by mr. torture

Well, the great river is about as good as I can get. For the moment..

the Great River is among the best pre's on the market, new or old.
if someone can not get a great sound with that pre it is not a issue with the pre.
their maybe better choice or not but for bass the Great River would be one of the pre's i would be using :)

[fretman]

Originally Posted by mr. torture

Interesting, different mic's may be the answer. Along with, as others suggested, running a DI.

Of all the good suggestions here, I think running the DI will be the most helpful. You may even find yourself using mostly DI signal, with just a touch of the amp for "air".

[mr. torture]

A few experiments today using the Ampeg SVT-3's direct output. I took that output ran it into a Great River, then into the Distressor. The punch was increased by a huge amount and I noticed I could get a much better Kick/Bass relationship.

I think in conjunction with micing up the 15" speaker, I will get that "Air" quality I am missing with just having the DI.

Much improved though and I thank you all for your suggestions.

[barthowk]

I've messed with different direct recording and micing with bass amps. I'm not a professional, but I understand why the big players almost always say that they just record bass direct. Its hard to beat a direct tone, IMO.

[Fernando S.]

I like to blend the DI signal with Mic. RE20 is great, but you can try a 421 or even a SM57 on the center of the speaker, and mix with your RE20. Just be careful about phase thing. IBP would be great to set this.

[andremattos]

Try REDDI

[FFTT]

I've tracked a lot of bass parts and find that it's better to concentrate on holding the
bottom together rather than going up the neck.

The drive of the rhythm section can fall apart when the bass player wanders off
into show off land rather than keeping it simple.

So it's not only the recording chain, but the part itself that determines how the
bass part holds up in the mix.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by FFTT

I've tracked a lot of bass parts and find that it's better to concentrate on holding the
bottom together rather than going up the neck.

The drive of the rhythm section can fall apart when the bass player wanders off
into show off land rather than keeping it simple.

So it's not only the recording chain, but the part itself that determines how the
bass part holds up in the mix.

i have always preferred a more simple bass that was rhythmic and in the pocket with the drummer as a bass player that felt he was a lead guitar player.
always room for any musician to shine but not in every setting or song.
simple is better :)
but i do love jazz but i think that is very different deal.

[FFTT]

Especially with Metal where driving the bottom is critical.

The bass part, kick and snare are your foundation.

Not only do I try to stay low, but to further enhance the drive, I've doubled
the bass root notes with piano and strings.

You can also try doubling with one roundwound track and one flatwound.

Just because you can play faster and higher does not mean that it's doing anything
for the music.

[Norman Lindsey]

The type of music I do is 80's Metal. Some bands for reference are, Ozzy, Accept, Judas Priest, Sabbath, Maiden etc.

I am currently working on capturing a good bass tone. This is the chain:

BC Rich custom shop Warlock Bass > Ampeg SVT-3 Pro > Ampeg 1-15 Cabinet > RE-20 > Great River Preamp > Distressor.

The bass comes out pretty good in the low end, but notes in the upper register seem to get lost. Maintaining a consistant uniformed level of all notes / strings is a problem I cannot seem to fix.

My room is treated using Ethan's designs, using rigid fiberglass and assorted panels. I also have aurlex bass traps in the corners of the room. The room is about 12' x 15' in size.

The player is a finger player, with over 20 years of experience. The problem is at my end, trying to capture a uniform level that cut's through the mix.

My guitar sounds are typical 80's, light on their own, thin but crunchy and fit the mix perfectly. Drums are BFD.

I guess I am looking for some advice as to mic placement, amplifier settings, alternatives to my current chain. I thank you all in advance for any suggestions you may be able to provide.

the best advice is to take your time experimenting.
look for ways to save time as well. it's no good lugging around a bunch of leads or mics if half the channels aren't used.

[T-fonk]

The music style you're into, does not call for flatwounds! Flats is really great for almost anything else!

BR T-fonk

[taturana]

i agree... flatwounds are great for blues,r&b, jazz, reggae.. but i wouldn´t use it in harder rock/heavy settings... they are very dull sounding, so you won´t get that bite you need to cut through with the bass line.

i think just mixing in a bit of direct sound with the miked cabinet will give you that high end you´re missing... that and brighter strings for sure.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Anyone dares to post some samples of some bass tracks they recorded?...

I think that would be awesome in general. Imagine a forum where everyone posted a (sonic) illustration of everything they wrote. With the full (I mean FULL) chain and everything explained. It would take a lot of time to post anything but we'd learn plenty!

[FFTT]

No fear see your in box!

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/song...g.cfm&referer=

Mackie 1604 into Tascam 488

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Anyone dares to post some samples of some bass tracks they recorded?...

I can't help but respond.......just finished the rough mix of this tune today.
Bass is DI.
EB3 ('69) into BBE DI (Sonic Maximizer on) into Trident 4T into MBox.

SoundClick song info: Brave Days by Lenny and the Scapers - Song info page with MP3 music downloads

Originally Posted by FFTT

I've tracked a lot of bass parts and find that it's better to concentrate on holding the
bottom together rather than going up the neck.

Not me.....for my stuff anyway....with that short scale neck I'm all over the place. Jammed with some local dudes the other day...classic oldies stuff.....keyboard guy says "Good bass, dude....kinda cole slaw, though."

Cole Slaw Bass

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by FFTT

No fear see your in box!

SoundClick song info: Katie B by Robb Michael Inglis - Song info page with free MP3 music downloads

Mackie 1604 into Tascam 488

That is solid at the bottom.

[FFTT]

I've just learned that highlights have more impact near the end of a phrase and when they don't interfere with the vocals or other lead parts.

It comes from playing with a 5 piece group where so much was going on that you had
to hold your part.
My signal chain was pathetic during that recording so it was even more critical
to make every note count.

I really like your melodic work and it's plain to see that you are a well rounded bass player. I would simplify to help drive the vocals during the verse and chorus and keep the fancier stuff confined to the interludes.

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by FFTT

I would simplify to help drive the vocals during the verse and chorus and keep the fancier stuff confined to the interludes.

Great advise...thanks.

[FFTT]

http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...d=4892729&q=lo

Home recording using a Boss Dr Rhythm for drums ugh!

The bass is my '64 Fender Jazz Bass.

Same path Mackie 1604 direct line in to Tascam 488 adding a bit of reverb with the FXR Elite and typical Alesis gawd awful compression.

Vocals via AKG C-1000 through Digitech Valve FX guitar pre clean channel.

It came out like Davey Jones eeeek!