Yamaha n Series

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by terence

I realize this must be the dullest no-brainer for many of you guys. I have had various problems in the past with software upgrades causing unforeseen glitches, so a nudge one way or the other would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Terence

I'm in the same boat.

I'm on 1.4 and everything is working OK. Updates always scare me but if one is having any problems then you should update. I'll probably just stay on 1.4 for the time being.

[pkorte]

Originally Posted by AJStoko

Hi George
i installed the Steinberg extension - same problem. Oddly enough, when i install the download the Yamaha templates disappear. I've tried uninstalling and reinstalling Tools for n several times. Everything seems to go as per installation guide, the cubase light comes on and then switches off after a short period.
Any help appreciated

By the way, these pre amps are very nice!

Hi
I had same problem, and noticed that templates from Yamahasynth doesn´t work with 4.5 version of AI4, if you have updated Cubase to 4.5xx version. I tried to open template straight from template directory and got message that this version of template doesn´t work with Cubase 4.5XX version. ..But templates from original CD/DVD works. So you must install newest drivers (driver and mTools) from Yamahasynth and after that old Yamaha extensions from CD/DVD. This worked for me.

Happy Holidays

Pekka Kortelainen, Finland

[milkshale]

Hi there guys,

I thought i'd post this little audio sample to give a little example of vocals straight out of the mixer.

This sample is 5 vocal parts, all done with a bluebird condenser running into the n-12 in an untreated room. There is a slight reverb and delay (cubase stock standard).

Also it took me about 5 minutes to record :P Hence the lack of any sort of musical structure. It is just to show how simple the N-12 is for potential buyers. I've had my N-12 set up for 2 days now, and only just learning the very basics, but regardless, i've been able to get a really good sound of it (the pre-amps are very accurate, and don't seem to have any coloration either.)

The 5 vocals are all using different sweet spot mixer compressor settings and go A B C D E from left to right.

So far I think this is my best investment in music, I can't wait to find get my fingers dirty.

[Geosync]

I'm on Holiday, but I'll give this a shot.

If you know patchbays , then I suggest this..
Half-normal the preamps to the compressors you use most often
Pre A to Comp A to Insert channel 1
Pre B to Comp B to Insert channel 2
Pre C to Comp C to Insert channel 3
All on the patchbay
Then you can jumper anyway you like

If you do not know how to set up a patchbay, you should google for
how to use a Half-Normaled patchbay

Happy Holidays everybody

[AJStoko]

Thanks for the suggestions people.
I eventually wiped everything and started from scratch - pleased to say it is all working how it should! Obviously something i didn't do correctly in the first place - same old story.
Anyway, on behalf of all the musos and sound aficionados down here in New Zealand I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and any other cultural equivalent. Don't forget to take the headphones off for a while and spend time with family/whanau

ps these pre amps are so nice!!

[bullfrog]

Thanks George and Randall,
I will check out the video.
Appreciate your help. I'll tell you, patchbays are probably easy to use once your up and running but reading about them on the net then trying to decide which one is best for you is a total headspin.
Hopefully the video will sort me out.
Cheers guys.

[skygod]

Originally Posted by electronglow

Just to avoid confusion (and I'm probably the one who's confused here), but is it really possible to do the above, i.e. send out 8 DAW tracks simultaneously on separate analogue outputs?

Looking at the n12 block diagram, it appears that the channel sends can output head amp signals only, not D/A converted DAW signals. I guess by putting the n12 in surround mode you can have 6 analogue outs, add the two AUX channels and you have 8. But in 5.1 mode you don't get the straight signal, as bass management filtering is active. Or is there a way to disable bass management in 5.1 mode?



I think analogue summing is a bit over hyped at the moment. Even experts such as Bob Katz maintain that it's not the summing process that sweetens the sound, it's the fact that you add tiny bits of distortion to individual tracks. As you say, running your signals through tube gear, tape emulation, or similar while tracking (which is where the n12's channel sends/returns come in handy) will do the same thing. In other words, I wouldn't worry about whether analogue summing with the n12 is possible or not.

-joachim

OMG joachim that's so funny. I saw a vid on Youtube the other day that he did on Bass Frequency Removal at:

YouTube - Mastering Audio by Bob Katz

You mean Bob Katz the unwitting MIT/NASA rocket scientist? He reminds me so much of radar on MASH its frightening! The cat is so lifeless, so dead refrigerated cold fish, and so anal he's the one who could use some distortion to warm his ars up maybe LOL? How many audio engineers walk around with a micro digital freqeuncy piano tuner in their pocket? I fell out of my chair laughing in tears when he pulled it out. Hey, maybe we can run him through an ANAMOD 2 CHANNEL ANALOG TAPE SIMULATOR, and with the ATR-102 cards we can keep cycling him through all the tape models until we hit the right one to get the job done? Oh stop it ~skygod~ you're killing me! I'll just sit here quietly in the corner now and do my 5-Hail Peter Paul & Mary's for offending the great one lest the great and fierce and vengeful Audio Lord of the Universe above smite me with an unholy electron burst that we durst not engage in attempted digital bass offending frequency removal lest we all perish!

~skygod~

PS.
Luv ya Bob. Just kidding. Now go smoke a fat one and settle down.
The Precision Matering Tools are great
Tell'em to hurry up with the UAD-2 upgrade already!!!!

~skygod~

[skygod]

Originally Posted by bikegerm

Hey George, I wanted to give you my initial thoughts on the N12. To this point I've only monitored various sources and recorded a line input from a VOX guitar amp.

I'm monitoring through a pair of Genelec 1030's with a Genelec sub. In a plain ol' bedroom at home. If devices would ever hum, it would be at your home so.... I replaced a Meitner Swithman as my audio monitor controller with the N12 for obvious reasons, but my signal chain was clean and pure to begin with so it could easily expose the N12's weaknesses.

It's totally silent. The clairity in the d/a's are stunning. I've monitored from my SADIE DSD-2 system through a Meitner DAC8 MK-1V convertor via the 2-track analog input. Sounded great. I wish there was a detent in the "2TR TO ST" pot so a true "unity" good be achieved at this point. This same thought applies to the "DAW TO ST" pot. I'm a stickler for gain structure.

I've played back stereo mixes from cubase digitally at all sample rates. The console sounded extremely "open" and "neutral". It's got headroom for days !!

As for recording a line level input from a VOX guitar amp. No line amp hums or oscillations. A very useful "pad" and pure VOX tone. I can't wait to try out the mic pre amps. I'll let you know my thoughts,

My biggest complaint is, "everyone will be able to afford this" !! It's achievements like this that have narrowed the gaps between "professional" and "project" studios. I have to keep reminding myself that experience is what attracts clients.

Congrad's on a great product line. As you have discussed, I think a N24 would be a great next step for the "N" Series. With the current ablitity of linking two N12's, the idea of two N24's together ..... well ????

Randy LeRoy
Finalstage Mastering

George I have to echo everything that Randy has said about the product. It is a stunning achievement for Yamaha and Steinberg. If I might be so humble to add, and anybody who thinks this is a bedroom toy needs to have their brain flushed out with Drano. There are obvious FW 400 bandwidth issues for expanded commercial use, and although I have not yet had the time to load 32 max channels at 24/96 in realtime under the present MLan capabilities and limitations, I have a sneaking suspicion that there will some latency degradation in real-time recording mixing and monitoring all channels loaded all at once live.

It is common knowledge that the corporate culture menatlity becomes "Massadic" in its own self-destructive siege menatlity when it comes under any sort of scrutiny, notwithstanding especially in this touchy-feely age of sensitivity where everybody is afraid of being sued for offending somebody else over anything, and corporations get themselves into a box sometimes, not precluding backing themselves into the fabled ‘Abilene Paradox’ corner and trap when the 'R&D-Marketing-Management’ triumvirate of cluelessness over a faulty product line to start-with generates its own superficial and surreal lifecycle management cycle momentum for survival within a company and cannot stop because nobody on board wants to be the one to say its fvvked up so they all live happily ever after in denial.

Well that's 90 percent of corporate America today in a nutshell and the planet for that matter, and we are all experiencing the painful woes in the market place as it crashes mercilessly around us all as it reevaluates and re-equilibriates itself into a real and normative standard again that is REAL and NOT surreal anymore. Not unlike the question of the 21st century relevance of unions that formed back in the "Westinghouse" days of 'cruel management' back in the early quarter of the past century, as they now exist not to serve the interests of the workers who pay their dues every paycheck , rather to be the progenitors of their own existence denying in that Abilene Paradox that the have outlived their usefulness. The transit strike disaster in NYC last year XMAS time is a prime example of how utterly clueless and useless unions are today.

Well skygod, WTF are you saying about Yamaha-Steinberg? What I am saying George is that THEY are NOT in this mess. This is probably one of the several dozen maybe or so successful marriages and ventures of this century that is actually on the cutting edge of redefining their particular industry for good. The very idea of creating a digital mixer to behave in such a way with such pristine audio, and preamps, and routing, and converters, and at such a price costing, is so simple a concept that nobody thought about it for the past decades because it is so obviously there! KORG for example introduced 1-bit recording as a better audiophile medium that could and should replace what we’ve all been doing to date as well. That was not a new concept, rather a Japanese discovery that was finally put into its first now second generation stage of hardware.

What I am saying George, and what I hope you will pass onto Yamaha-Steinberg is that this expansion -- as Randy suggested -- to a 24+ channel version with expansion modules might I add, but NOT via firewire as the bandwidth limitation would require AES instead. Forget about SMUX and all that other crappola too. Its outdated. Time to move into the future already. Right now I’m considering running the mixers partially FW for machine control with Nuendo, but I am more interested in running to and from analog to HD24XRs in realtime and thru Aurora-Lynx in realtime using the mixers as OTB tools for EQ, Reverb, mild compression, and the quality of the preamps as well as the low noise-floor.

I would like to see the commercial version at 1-Bit capable marrying with KORG as well, and the ability to be able to control ITB UAD I and UAD II and Waves VST plugs in realtime seamlessly to and from the mixer OTB via AES with parameters controlled using machine control or midi or whatever software sub management protocol is required. That way folks don’t have to pay $25K for a 24 ch WKID or $15K for an MCPRO or all that Mackie stuff all over the place taking up all that space or whatever else. These control protocols should already be built into the digital-analog hybrid mixer with templates for integration with ANY and ALL software managers out there that folks already use and love. (Just like 02R and DM series controlled such using Mackie machine protocol or whatever it was that did it). I’m so tired of spending more and more money for stuff that additional stuff takes up more and more fvvking space for something that should already have it all built in using the best format available without breaking the bank.

Well the ball is in the Yamaha-Steinberg court. They have the tools and brainpower and enterprise to make it happen. They can sit on this for the next three to five to ten years and do nothing and say ‘we have arrived … domo arigato mr robato … dankeshoen … more sake and beer bitte,’ or they can run with the ball and redefine the commercial audio industry for good and for the better once and for all. I once worked for a company that had a civilian division of their amazing high tech product line and the military government division that did black contracts exclusively. Yup I was on the black side, and their products were military and scientific and very top secret. The analogy here could be a civilian and a commercial division of the company as a split product line. The O1R O2R DM2000 and all else can be replaced by this technology. Think about it. These preamps are on par and better than my DM2000s were? Hello? Now WTF is wrong with that picture at 1/19th the cost of what I paid. Hello?

Happy holidays man- George you’re the greatest dude and
You’re now my second favourite George …
after my hero George Noory on Coast-2-Coast of course

Happy holidays to you and yours-

~skygod~

PS.
The Germans and the Japanese make the best
partnerships from way back WWII era when
they almost kiscked our arses. If they can’t
do it then nobody can! Hey but dat’s what I tink!
.... fuggedaboudit!

~skygod~

[milkshale]

Another silly song (half joke, more just fiddling with pre-amps).

Blue Mic - > N12 - > Autotune - > Fun fun fun.

Using Sweet spot A, and all done in an untreated room.

[trevort]

Originally Posted by milkshale

Another silly song (half joke, more just fiddling with pre-amps).

Blue Mic - > N12 - > Autotune - > Fun fun fun.

Using Sweet spot A, and all done in an untreated room.

Sounds really clean. Very nice! Better than what I would expect from a unit costing $1199.00 street. As far as the untreated room goes,it's a little easier to get a way with only live vocals.they do sound pretty smooth! If you had live drums and acoustic.electric guitars etc.. Then that's a different thing. that's when a room can really make or break a great recording but, in this case it's done with synth/drum machine. Although mixing in an untreated room is harder.
Non the less great job.

TT

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by milkshale

Another silly song (half joke, more just fiddling with pre-amps).

Blue Mic - > N12 - > Autotune - > Fun fun fun.

Using Sweet spot A, and all done in an untreated room.

Sounds good!

[smoke]

I've been sending CR-B to my main home receiver, and set up a 'monitoring' preset on the receiver, calibrated for the N12. It works pretty good, don't know why I didn't think of it earlier! This way I can refer to CD, TV, Radio while mixing to make sure balances and EQ are good. Radio can be set to classical, jazz, hip hop, rock, etc depending on the sound I want. This also adds a subwoofer, which I didn't have on my mixing station.

Setting it up this way also lets me record from the TV, or radio back into the N12. It's all at the press of a few buttons. Pretty sweet. Now I'm trying to figure out whether to put a standard tape deck direct to the receiver, or the N12?

[rackdude]

I JUST ORDERED AN N12!!! WOOT!



Ok, now that that's aside, I want firewire 800 for my PC (only has 400) and then on my laptop, so I've decided to try this:

Dynex :: Products For Your Digital Life - Dynex FireWire 800 ExpressCard Adapter

and

then for the pc interchange:

Desktop ExpressCard Card Slot / PCI Express (PCIe) to ExpressCard Adapter

Will it work beautifully?

[curlyhead]

Okay, have had the N12 for just a few days and was thinking it was really kind of cool. But, using either Cubase AI or Sonar 7pe I was only able to get rather low plug counts (worse in Cubase) before clicks/pops started to show up. Adjusting the buffers past 512 or so didn't really seem to make much difference. And I thought to myself I could probably live with it at the level it was at (seeing how the interface is really cool, and really liking the hardware buses), but went ahead and downloaded newer versions of the AI driver and Steinberg DAW extensions.
At that point I used the Tools for N CD to uninstall the existing driver and extension, then went through the install process using the new driver and extension.
Will, now when I try to change the sample rate I get a "Sample rate cannot be changed because connections were changed." popup and I'm sort of dead in the water.
Neither Cubase of Sonar will record or play though the devise. The cubase ready light doesn't turn on when in Cubase.
I've trying uninstalling and just re-installing from the CD everthing, but come up with the same problem. Suggestions?

[rackdude]

Go into system when it's plugged in and totally re-install the driver. Windows has a tendency to put a random driver on crap if you plug it in without a driver. Happens to everything, cameras, tv tuners, etc. That's why the manual ALWAYS says install the driver THEN plug in. It sounds like it's that problem .

The clicking and popping though sounds like cpu overload. If raising track counts causes it, it's just from strain on your computer. What are you running it on?

[curlyhead]

Got called into work for a bit, but I'm thinking I did the re-install with the system unplugged (like the book says, otherwise the found new hardware thing would come up right away).

As far as my system, I'm running XP/home on a Intel 8400 at stock speed. 2 gig memory. With the old interface (firepod) I was able to get at least 3 times the number of effect plug-ins going without anykind of pops. So I was thinking the driver updates might help.

[Madman007]

Hey, reading this thread has influenced me to purchase a Yamaha N12. However, I was wondering if anyone has had experience installing this on Vista?

The reason I ask is, every time I install, when it comes to the mLan Connection Manager (the last part of the process) connecting to the n12, the status bar gets about 3/4 of the way there but then freezes, the dialog box goes into 'Not Responding' mode and never comes out of it. Needless to say, the n12 then does not work with the machine.

It happens every time. Anyone have any ideas?

[Madman007]

Thanks for the reply. The mLan Driver Setup seems to recognise it, but it is an NEC chip and I see on the Yamaha website some NEC chips may not be supported. I do have an AGERE chip in the motherboard though which I have also tried to use with the same freezing effect.

How do I check exactly the model of these firewire chips so I can check if they are supported or not?

[curlyhead]

Okay, just a follow up on my driver install problem. I walked through the re-install with Yamaha support (the guy was very easy to talk to) and we ended up getting the same "Sample rate cannot be changed .." message, at which point he had me do the "RESET ALL" from the little pull down in the task bar. At which point the device made the new connection and all was right again.

As far as my concern with effect plug counts, he indicated the speed of the processor would only be one factor (eyeing task manager CPU use is always less than 30%). Midi activity apparently is a big factor when using this device and Cubase AI. (and sure enough even when using Sonar with the N12 I am able to use several more concurrent plugs before experiencing audio problems, of course Sonar -nodoubt- is causing less midi activity.

I will have to change a bit the way I am interacting with my DAW (more effect buses, fewer plugin instances). But using the N12, I'm expecting to end up with cleaner/better sounding projects.

[bluesdude6]

I just bought my N12, I've been running Cubase 4 on my PC with a Firestudio, Now I'm having trouble getting the "Cubase Ready" to light up, as I'm not sure which file to load in to the PC, as I don't want to load in the smaller version of cubase that came with the N12. I haven't gotten it working yet, to respond to my computer/cubase 4. Any thought s anyone?

[jdvmi]

bluesdude, I have this problem a lot too. I'm not sure what causes it or how it ends up getting fixed, but usually if I load cubase and the light doesn't come on I have to re-boot a couple times before it starts working again. This is a real pain so if anyone has any advice on fixing this issue please let us know, thx!

[rackdude]

I tried calling George for support a few days ago and his message was he'll be back on the 4th I think. Maybe it was the 7th. So just hold on.

[Heartfelt]

I have seen that the pres are way nice but how is the conversion... what does it compare to?

[milkshale]

Hi guys,

i've managed to get everything on my N-12 / Cubase Studio 4 working properly, aside from one thing.

I'm unable to get the hardware mix to work.

For example.

if i've got a project up, with 4 midi tracks and 3 audio tracks. If i switch to HARDWARE MIX, i am still able to hear the midi tracks, but i cannot hear the audio tracks. Even if tracks 1,2,3 and STEREO are on and at 0.0 on the fader.

Anyone know what I can do to try and solve the problem?

Thanks in advance.

[jdvmi]

Awesome, new firmware and Vist64 coming!

This is from Athan Billis of yamaha in this post:

"Here is a list of software that will be released in the next few weeks.

New Yamaha Steinberg Firewire driver with added functionality and Vista 64 bit support.

IEEE1394 Firmware Updater ( mLAN16E2 )
MOTIF XS Editor VST (VST3)
MOTIF XS Extension
MOTIF-RACK XS Editor VST (VST3)
MOTIF-RACK XS Extension

n8/n12 Firmware
IEEE1394 Firmware Updater & same as MOTIF XS series)
TOOLS for n Version2
Yamaha n Extension
Sweet Spot Data Manager
KX Remote Tools
KX Extension
KX Editor
All of these will support Windows Vista 64 as well as the other current OS on both Windows and MAC . "

[Geosync]

Originally Posted by jdvmi

Awesome, new firmware and Vist64 coming!

This is from Athan Billis of yamaha in this post:

"Here is a list of software that will be released in the next few weeks.

New Yamaha Steinberg Firewire driver with added functionality and Vista 64 bit support.

IEEE1394 Firmware Updater ( mLAN16E2 )
MOTIF XS Editor VST (VST3)
MOTIF XS Extension
MOTIF-RACK XS Editor VST (VST3)
MOTIF-RACK XS Extension

n8/n12 Firmware
IEEE1394 Firmware Updater & same as MOTIF XS series)
TOOLS for n Version2
Yamaha n Extension
Sweet Spot Data Manager
KX Remote Tools
KX Extension
KX Editor
All of these will support Windows Vista 64 as well as the other current OS on both Windows and MAC . "

Yes, that's what is keeping me busy. It's rock solid and very low latency.
It is different from mLAN and not for those mLAN products.
I am just getting in installed today so I can't really talk about it until after NAMM which is next week.

Stay tuned, Happy New Year, sorry I've been a stranger.

[rackdude]

More functionality as in... please let the faders control automation!!!

Just a question on that, would it really be hard to make that? I mean, it's a digital mixer, so the faders are just sending movement data to a digital system anyways... can't they write something to route that to cubase?

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by rackdude

More functionality as in... please let the faders control automation!!!

Just a question on that, would it really be hard to make that? I mean, it's a digital mixer, so the faders are just sending movement data to a digital system anyways... can't they write something to route that to cubase?

Not sure I'm following your thinking exactly.
Automated boards use faders with motors. The N series would have to add some very different components. I would love it if they did!

An easier adjustment is to connect the faders via MIDI to control Cubase. No motorized recall, but allowing greater control of the software. Cheaper, easier, and quieter than installing motors. You find this feature on the new Allen & Heath ZED R16, an analog board with high-level midi control. With the ZED R16 you don't have to use the faders as MIDI controllers, but the option is there. Nice flexibility for people who work differently. But this board also costs $1,800 more.


*************************************
BTW... George. Speaking of price, I see Sam Ash selling n12s for $999 and n8s for $599. Another $200 price drop or is it just Sam Ash moving gear for a newer version? Wasn't the n12 selling at around $1499-$1999 in the beginning?

[lazi]

i really hope the firmware update will lets us create new work modes...

[ion-five]

i am RIGHT now about to buy this beauty (n12)

but i ve found oen statement in a review that made me very nervous


"t's nice having inserts on the 8 main channels, but (and I should have realized this) they are analog only, so you can't insert compressors or FX on tracks coming from the DAW."


PLEASE, George or/and anyone

is that true?
i mainly wanna use it to get my Tracks from Logic out to mixdown OTB

i did not see a MAIN INSERT on the rear either... where would i apply a Summing Eq?



and one last question:
with a core2duo 2,4 Macbook Pro 4GB Ram using Logic 8
will i face any Latency or CPU issues when doing a mix like:
16 channels from logic via FW into the n12 and 16 channels via FW (mixed) back to Logic (or tracking in Cubase)

?