Yamaha n Series

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by mcmacguy

Hmmm? That link mentions the Ear Candy comp. settings, but I see no way to d/l them. Where are they? Do I have to d/l Sweet Spot Mgr. again?

That's right, it's been updated.

[Geosync]

Tuco and I had a very fruitful discussion about how to use another analog mixer
with the n12 to gain more monitors. After some thought and experimenting,
I came up with a few cool ways to use the n12 with a Yamaha MG166CX analog mixer.
It's very clean and has a lot of bang for the buck. Around $400 street. You can use a TRS
snake on the inserts and send the 8 mic channel strips out for some cool connections.
Even more cool things can be done with a patchbay in the hands of a guy who knows how to use one.

Anyway, I thought some of you may enjoy what this little addition can do. Any analog mixer will do all or part of what is suggested. Of course when I do the apps, My Company, My mixer

Enjoy

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by Geosync

Tuco and I had a very fruitful discussion about how to use another analog mixer
with the n12 to gain more monitors. After some thought and experimenting,
I came up with a few cool ways to use the n12 with a Yamaha MG166CX analog mixer.
It's very clean and has a lot of bang for the buck. Around $400 street. You can use a TRS
snake on the inserts and send the 8 mic channel strips out for some cool connections.
Even more cool things can be done with a patchbay in the hands of a guy who knows how to use one.

Anyway, I thought some of you may enjoy what this little addition can do. Any analog mixer will do all or part of what is suggested. Of course when I do the apps, My Company, My mixer

Enjoy

Excellent work guys!

I've got an Alesis analog mixer that will work for this application but I don't have a need for it yet. But this is great reference.

[tuco]

Three cheers for Geosync! (George from Yamaha Corp.) This man should get an award and a nice fat bonus for customer communication above and beyond the call of duty.

On an earlier post, I squawked about the single AUX SEND on the n12. After talking with Geosync, I found out that the ST OUT could also be used as a monitor mix, for a total of two aux sends on this board.

Apparently this derives from the design focus of the n12--it's primarily a home studio recording interface with OTB mixdown and some live sound capability as well. (Geosync, feel free to correct me on any of this).

IMHO, the Mackie Onyx boards are desinged primarily for live sound, with multitrack recording capability but no OTB mixdown since only two channels are returned from software to the mixer. The live sound design approach helps explain Mackie's decision to only allow recording of the dry signal.

My understanding from Geosync: To get more aux sends from the n12, run a snake from the inserts of the n12 to the line ins of a second analog mixer (let's assume it's a 16-channel device). The n12 inserts are treated like additional outs.

So you now have let's say, channels 1-8 on the second mixer fed by inserts 1-8 on the n12. From there, use the second mixer's aux sends and monitor out to create additional monitor mixes. Between the two aux sends native to the n12 and those on the second mixer, you would end up with four to eight aux sends in total.

Beyond that, if you were inclined, you could group channels 9-16 on the second mixer and send those outs back to ins 9-12 on the n12. So, the second mixer becomes a submixer feeding the n12.

Going forward, I'd like to see an n16 or an n24 model with at least 4 aux sends built-in to the board for monitoring.

[tuco]

If you own the n12, please tell the rest of us about the character of its preamps compared to other outboard pres you have used.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by tuco

If you own the n12, please tell the rest of us about the character of its preamps compared to other outboard pres you have used.

Too bad this thread is so long now. There have been a number of posts about this but you would have to dig through quite a bit.

I've only compared the n12 pre's to my Joe Meek VC6Q and my Alesis mixer pres. There is a more open and airy sound that I find with the n12 compared to the Meek and more headroom. But I do like the Meek, just not as much as the n12. The Alesis pres are not terrible, they are just simply no match in any area compared the n12.

I do have a POD X3L which has some preamp models and surprisingly they are usable. But again, the n12 shines over them also.

[obscure object]

Originally Posted by tuco

My understanding from Geosync: To get more aux sends from the n12, run a snake from the inserts of the n12 to the line ins of a second analog mixer (let's assume it's a 16-channel device). The n12 inserts are treated like additional outs.

So you now have let's say, channels 1-8 on the second mixer fed by inserts 1-8 on the n12.

Originally Posted by Geosync

You can use a TRS
snake on the inserts and send the 8 mic channel strips out for some cool connections.

I'm trying to figure out the signal path for this method.
When using the inserts, the signal is cut from the N12 monitor path but still get recorded, which means A/D is pre-inserts?

If the A/D is post-inserts, does the signal get split between the converters and the insert out when using the TRS cables?

[obscure object]

hmmm ... giving it some thought ... the converters have to be post-inserts ... so am I right about the signal getting split?

[Geosync]

There are many variables. That's why I used the MG. It's my reference.
If it is a Yamaha (and Most) mixer. The input of the m2nd mixer completes the switch

Input--> insert out TIP--> mixer 2 input (Tip and Ring are shorted together
Ring returns the signal bacK to the n

Help?

[sirthought]

Well guys, I just heard about Allen & Heaths ZED-R16
It seems like they've put in a lot of the stuff people on this thread have requested of the n-series.

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I think it'd be nice to hear some honest opinions about the comparison of these two boards. Maybe we should create a separate thread for that. It might help those who are trying to figure out the advantages to n-series, Onyx, ZED, etc. A chart would be easy, but I doubt anyone would put in that kind of time.

Anyhow, the ZED isn't available until July. Thought some of you might be interested since it offers a similar ITB / OTB mixing workflow.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by sirthought

Well guys, I just heard about Allen & Heaths ZED-R16
It seems like they've put in a lot of the stuff people on this thread have requested of the n-series.

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I think it'd be nice to hear some honest opinions about the comparison of these two boards. Maybe we should create a separate thread for that. It might help those who are trying to figure out the advantages to n-series, Onyx, ZED, etc. A chart would be easy, but I doubt anyone would put in that kind of time.

Anyhow, the ZED isn't available until July. Thought some of you might be interested since it offers a similar ITB / OTB mixing workflow.

I think a different thread would be best. Presonus also has a similar unit so some folks would like to talk about that unit as well.

[juscallmemickey]

Originally Posted by sirthought

Well guys, I just heard about Allen & Heaths ZED-R16
It seems like they've put in a lot of the stuff people on this thread have requested of the n-series.

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I think it'd be nice to hear some honest opinions about the comparison of these two boards. Maybe we should create a separate thread for that. It might help those who are trying to figure out the advantages to n-series, Onyx, ZED, etc. A chart would be easy, but I doubt anyone would put in that kind of time.

Anyhow, the ZED isn't available until July. Thought some of you might be interested since it offers a similar ITB / OTB mixing workflow.

Great, I have my N12 on backorder right now. This is making me think twice. I could really use all those midi controls. Plus, it runs off of Sonar, which I already use. Ahhh! Maybe it can run off of Reaper too, my new favorite DAW.

The only thing that's holding me back is the fact that the N12's preamps will be able to drive my SM7B with ease.

[Geosync]

Originally Posted by juscallmemickey

Great, I have my N12 on backorder right now. This is making me think twice. I could really use all those midi controls. Plus, it runs off of Sonar, which I already use. Ahhh! Maybe it can run off of Reaper too, my new favorite DAW.

The only thing that's holding me back is the fact that the N12's preamps will be able to drive my SM7B with ease.

Read well my friends, These mixers are not the same.
one is analog one is digital

compressors?
Reverb? good or bad?
Almost no latency monitor?
What drivers? Future support
Templates for Auto connection?
Aren't there more questions than answers at this point?

Not saying it's good or bad , just different and there is no manual for me to download for details.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by juscallmemickey

Great, I have my N12 on backorder right now. This is making me think twice. I could really use all those midi controls. Plus, it runs off of Sonar, which I already use. Ahhh! Maybe it can run off of Reaper too, my new favorite DAW.

The only thing that's holding me back is the fact that the N12's preamps will be able to drive my SM7B with ease.

I have ran Sonar for years and still do some work in it using the n12. You don't have the same level of integration that you have with Cubase but the Zed is not going to have that level of integration either. That's one of the little bonuses you get with Yamaha owning Steinberg. You want to see just how much integration there is with the n12 and Cubase. I've also ran Reaper with the n12, again....you don't have the same level of integration but it works great with the n12.

[juscallmemickey]

On the product page of the Zed, it says that it'll be integrated with Sonar and includes Sonar LE.

[sirthought]

Yes, there are more questions than answers at this point.
Their literature is not organized as well, nor are there videos.
And I would never say if one or the other is good or bad, they are just different. I think the n-series is incredible.

I just know many here were asking for new n-series features such as more I/O, digital expansion, an expanded EQ section, and a
greater ability to control their DAW via programmable midi.

Originally Posted by Geosync

Read well my friends, These mixers are not the same. One is analog one is digital

Great point. It's analog, but if the recording is working well, I'm trying to remember why that would be a bad thing, especially if I'm getting that "analog board" sound. The AD and DA conversion would be the important thing here, correct? Looking at the ZED block diagram I think I see a converter on each channel, but then one on the "digital" master fader too. Are there two stages of conversion before it hits the PC? Why are they calling it a "digital master"?

Originally Posted by Geosync

compressors?
Reverb? good or bad?

I'd have to use either outboard FX or plugins of my choosing. And I could control the plugs on the board through midi. Yamaha's inclusion of these is awesome, especially after hearing so many complements. I just know many people have already purchased gear for this, so it's great that they can use it with the ZED easily.

Originally Posted by Geosync

Almost no latency monitor?
What drivers? Future support
Templates for Auto connection?

I'm very curious to hear about the latency monitoring. I imagine since you can route to an outboard compressor or other FX the monitoring would be the same as any other analog board setup. The trick is with the plugins. There are four AUX pots on each channel, so I need to figure out if those are mappable to the software. I think they are.

No info on drivers or templates. While they ship with Sonar LE, they also highlight the ability to connect to any DAW in their setup diagram.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by juscallmemickey

On the product page of the Zed, it says that it'll be integrated with Sonar and includes Sonar LE.

Yes, I saw that.

When thinking about these products keep in mind the n series mixers are digital. Obviously you have already researched the n12. I don't think your going to see the same level of integration the n12 has with Cubase and the Zed with Sonar.

[trock]

with Roland owning a large portion of cakewalk i am really surprised Allen and Heath and nto roland rolled something out with sonar.
it def does not have the integration that the N12 has with cubase

i think roland is really missing an oppurtunity here, i had a VS2480 and loved that, seems like it would be simple for them to integrate sonar and a digital mixer

however i would pick a yanaha board over a roland board any day

while i enjoy and hav sonar 7PE i like cubase quite a bit better, especially with the M24 and N12 now

and so far the support from george, the sweet spot program, the 5 buck sampletank and sound disc etc tc etc from them has just been incredible

i do think yamaha would have a winner if it rolled out something like an N24 with cubase to. but the N12 has been nothing short of perfect so far

[smoke]

Well, it says nothing about routing unlimited virtual instruments and audio at the same time OUT the box INTO the mixer, and that's what sold me (and I'm sure other non-live instrument newbs will catch on to this feature soon enough)

Very few boards allow this sort of intergration with a DAW without manual multi i/o.

...

and I doubt I'd want to see any new iteration of the N12 anytime soon. I just spent +$1500! I would hate to see something better roll in stores right about now! Take your time Yamaha, and please don't go the route of Apple (...F'ing over early adopters)

[trock]

true that

i just meant they did so well with thi series, really getting it right on all levels, that if they rolled out a larger board it would do well also

[smoke]

Originally Posted by trock

true that

i just meant they did so well with thi series, really getting it right on all levels, that if they rolled out a larger board it would do well also

Well yeah, larger wouldn't tempt me (where would I put it?!?!)

But I would be extremely if they came out with some motorized fader version, complete remote midi control with Cubase, intergrated SweetSpot and EQ VST with total board recall, etc.

I'd just rather them not even make that at all.... well, give me 4-5 years...

[trock]

haha

i hear ya, i understand, i don't think they will though, they have the DM series stuff for all of that. these are just great, simple boards that work really well and for a great price.

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by smoke

Well, it says nothing about routing unlimited virtual instruments and audio at the same time OUT the box INTO the mixer, and that's what sold me (and I'm sure other non-live instrument newbs will catch on to this feature soon enough)

Very few boards allow this sort of intergration with a DAW without manual multi i/o.

...

and I doubt I'd want to see any new iteration of the N12 anytime soon. I just spent +$1500! I would hate to see something better roll in stores right about now! Take your time Yamaha, and please don't go the route of Apple (...F'ing over early adopters)

More features (if they work) is just better. Why be ticked if that occurred? I'd rather keep my loyalty to a company that responds to market demands rather than pretend those requests aren't important. I hope Yamaha does come out with an expanded feature set for this series. Or just expanded channel strips without the transport and monitor controls. I know this stuff is new and changes quickly, but it's not like they couldn't predict the amount of flexibility people demand in the digital arena. stike


This ZED R-16 allows up to 26 simultaneous I/O. And you can run virtual instruments using your DAW as the signal source right through the FW into the mixer (and back if needed). One thing that confuses me is the ZED R-16 only has a midi out, no midi in or thru. But I imagine you could use a midi router with a FW out and go into the ZED. There are two FW ports. There is also no mute or dimmer for the board, which is a nice convenience.

But when it comes to integration... if there are 49 programmable midi controls, how could you see the n-series offering more integration? The template is something anyone can do with some effort on any DAW if you know how to route with your DAW and program the board's midi controls.

I think it would come down to the sound of the pres, compression, and reverb, and if the n-12 has the I/O you can work with.

[smoke]

Originally Posted by sirthought

More features (if they work) is just better. Why be ticked if that occurred? I'd rather keep my loyalty to a company that responds to market demands rather than pretend those requests aren't important. I hope Yamaha does come out with an expanded feature set for this series. Or just expanded channel strips without the transport and monitor controls. I know this stuff is new and changes quickly, but it's not like they couldn't predict the amount of flexibility people demand in the digital arena. stike


This ZED R-16 allows up to 26 simultaneous I/O. And you can run virtual instruments using your DAW as the signal source right through the FW into the mixer (and back if needed). One thing that confuses me is the ZED R-16 only has a midi out, no midi in or thru. But I imagine you could use a midi router with a FW out and go into the ZED. There are two FW ports. There is also no mute or dimmer for the board, which is a nice convenience.

But when it comes to integration... if there are 49 programmable midi controls, how could you see the n-series offering more integration? The template is something anyone can do with some effort on any DAW if you know how to route with your DAW and program the board's midi controls.

I think it would come down to the sound of the pres, compression, and reverb, and if the n-12 has the I/O you can work with.

I'm not complaining about companies expanding and adding features. I just don't enjoy it when companies advertise great new products, to only one-up it a short time later with version 2. Of course it's understanding, but I don't want to ever be the guy to fall into this situation. I know some people have lots of money/patience and don't mind... so to each their own.

I didn't read the manual on the A&H so yeah, that's great if it does the VSTi out into the mixer. Since the mixer is analogue, that's nice since that would be REAL summing. I wonder how that works... if you can continue to work with midi parts, while going thru an analog summer (D/A stage for virtual instruments?) Working OTB with live midi is a nice N12 feature, and I don't happen to know (besides Alesis and Mackie?) too many ways to work this way without physical multiple ins and outs. That's all I'm referring to with intergration. Most of the time, you have to bounce the tracks down to audio first before you can get it out the box.

...obviously there is a lot of stuff I don't know too!... But for me, yeah the N12 is perfect, and again.... the perfect tool for people who have a workflow similar to mine. They filled a niche here.

[grame99]

anyone actually have any idea how much this thing will cost?

[wakestyle]

I would be really happy to hear about a new and improved N12 right about now, as I'm walking on thin ice to grabbing one very soon here.

(same sound/layout, extra features, outputs on all channels am I dreaming??).

Actually i would prefer a pcie version though...

[AndyRoid]

Hi People, new to the board so go easy on me..
Have been following this thread for awhile - v. interested in N8 & am now in a position where I could pick one up for a good price (£430 in UK) but not sure if it'll work with my ageing Fujitsu Siemens Laptop (around 4 years old). Don't know how I'd establish whether it'd work or not (dealer stated that if it didn't work on my lappie, that's tough cheese, I can't get a refund, not sure if that's kosher but nevermind...). Don't know much about the spec of the Fujitsu (being a steadfastly hardware kinda guy up until now) but it does have an m-lan port & a celeron-M processor. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. BTW - this thread has been a great resource so far...

[Geosync]

Originally Posted by AndyRoid

Hi People, new to the board so go easy on me..
Have been following this thread for awhile - v. interested in N8 & am now in a position where I could pick one up for a good price (£430 in UK) but not sure if it'll work with my ageing Fujitsu Siemens Laptop (around 4 years old). Don't know how I'd establish whether it'd work or not (dealer stated that if it didn't work on my lappie, that's tough cheese, I can't get a refund, not sure if that's kosher but nevermind...). Don't know much about the spec of the Fujitsu (being a steadfastly hardware kinda guy up until now) but it does have an m-lan port & a celeron-M processor. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. BTW - this thread has been a great resource so far...

Hi There,

Cubase AI will require much more from your computer than the n8.
The main reason for that is the Halion One player needs CPU.
As long as the 1394 chip is compatible , you should be fine.

Here are the Requirments

[AndyRoid]

Originally Posted by Geosync

Hi There,

Cubase AI will require much more from your computer than the n8.
The main reason for that is the Halion One player needs CPU.
As long as the 1394 chip is compatible , you should be fine.

Here are the Requirments

Thanks George,

As it turns out my lappie has the "wrong sort" of m-lan socket - certainly the lead that the dealership showed me for the N8 doesn't fit... altho' if anyone has any other ideas I'd be interested to hear them.

Anyway - I have taken the plunge & bought it anyhoo as I feel it's a good deal. Which prompts my next question... I wish to now buy a music only computer - have been meaning to for a while but this has now pushed me into making a decision.

Having read through this thread it appears i should go Mac - have no experience in this area but I want something that'll be stable & work without all the faffing about that seems to occur with PCs. I haven't got a fortune to spend - so I'm thinking Macbook as I want to be portable - would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this - I'd be recording mainly hardware synths, bit of guitar, vocals & found sounds - purely for my own projects, not on a commercial basis. Any suggestions on this would be most welcome. Thankyou in advance. AR.

[smoke]

Dumb question, and no I didn't refer to the manual

Using headphones in the AUX. I couldn't think of any way to hear just the headphone out without the DAW to ST (main out L/R) playing. It should be simple... other than unplugging them out the back, how can I mute the mains, while listening to the headphones?

If it matters, this is a ST MIX coming out of Cubase.

Another question, is it possible to use 2 sets of headphones in both jacks... (AUX and CR) at the same time, and have the exact same mix coming out. I couldn't find a simple way to do this. I want to compare the sound on 2 sets of headphones without unplugging anything.