Van Halen Recording method

[TripletTrouble]

Hey guys...

Well, I'm new to this forum.
I'm a 26 years old drummer from Germany and I hope I can find some answers to my questions right here.

So, my first question is about guitar recording methods. I tried it via the search-fuction but I didn't find what I was looking for (maybe there was too much stuff).

I'm pretty interested in the Van Halen recording method.
I know that 2 mics are used. 1 dead close (dynamic)
and 1 room (condenser i.e. oktava mk319)

On one hand you pan both signals to the left and on the other hand you route them to a group and pan them via delay to the right.

Can anybody give me further instructions? I tried it with a stereo and a mono-group (stereo sounds very crappy)...
What kind of settings would you prefer on the delay (time etc)

Please excuse me bad English.

Best regards,
TripletTrouble

[davixgt]

I dont particularly know what mic's he used, except for a 57 straight on the grillcloth for the first album...i did read once that in the mid 80's he started using and Eventide Harmonizer as a Chorus to get some separation between left and right, you can actually do this with a stereo delay set to aprox 15-20ms or with a stereo chorus...i actually prefer the chrorus option and use it live, it really beef's up the sound...
Feel free to correct me if i am mistaken...anyways, i hope this helps...

ROCK ON
David

[CorkyTart]

Dont pan the mic on your cab hard left, do about 10am on that and the room close to hard right. I believe that they used an API board on the first VH. Ed also used a power soak. Most importantly, Ed is Ed (Boy I wish he still was)

[andymixer]

IF you want that Alex Van Halen snare drum sound which personally I despise, what they did apparantly was put duct tape on the top snare head. Very unique sound I have to say, but it sounds to me like someone is playing racquet ball everytime he hits the snare.

[kats]

I never really liked the VH drum sounds AT ALL. Too cymbally etc. But somehow as a whole the thing worked didn't it.

[Toad]

I've mixed on that console - It was a heavily modified API!!

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by andymixer

IF you want that Alex Van Halen snare drum sound which personally I despise, what they did apparantly was put duct tape on the top snare head. Very unique sound I have to say, but it sounds to me like someone is playing racquet ball everytime he hits the snare.

He said guitar

Fans love his drum sound and thats what counts


Eddie used a 57 early..not 2 mics ...according to everthing I have read.

Its not at all about the mics though. Its about him and his amp. There was a hundred ME's trying to copy his sound in those years and none did--so dont beat yourself up.

Some decent marshall clips here..i have many other sites but cant locate them now

soundclips

His sound now is a single track copied, pitched 9 cents, delayed, and panned to the other side

With all the talk on recording forums on checking your mixes in mono..VH never cared and sold upteen million cds with a guitar that disappears in mono---just listen to Judgement Day in mono. You'll hear the Vocals, drums , and bass all twice as loud as the guitars. Eddie has such feel that his expertise is rendered usless if he plays the part twice.

personally I like the old way because the new method causes a chorus ffect on the guitar from the phasing-- The old was with just 1 guitar panned left and only the verb and delay from that guitar panned right. Its not about 2 mics

[CorkyTart]

Word is that after Dave left, they used speaker emulators.

VH has fallen so hard it's hard to believe, EVH can hardly even play his own stuff, he sounds like a really good guitar player in a VH cover band, he doesnt sound like the EVH we knew.

[TripletTrouble]

Hey there,
thanks a lot for your advice

Feel free to make some additions.

I'm going to annoy you later with some questions

Best regards,
TT

[magellan]

good info here:
Eddie Van Halen's Guitar Sound in the 1st album

[6strings]

There was a hundred ME's trying to copy his sound in those years and none did--so dont beat yourself up.

The VH camp became notorious for intentionally releasing false info in the press and during interviews. Anything you've heard or read in the past should be taken with a grain of salt...

[Jim Williams]

I was told by one of the recent engineers that he was using my High Speed mic pre for the drum overheads, piano, amp cabs, etc. Mics used included some of the modified 414B's that were used on the peavey cabs and the piano and drum overheads. These were recent sessions done in the last few years. These tracks may have not been released yet, I don't know. I would like to hear them.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[seaneldon]

how did van halen record? i'll show you.

[allphourus]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

how did van halen record? i'll show you.

Just Imagine what he could have done without the the crutches,He's just another self destructive ADDICT!

This is no way to record or run a band,the proof is in the pud'n!

If Valerie wasn't enough reason to stay sober what could be?

[eligit]

it is funny this topic would come up....i was just reading that thread where people are talking about tracking seventy frickin five guitar tracks in one tune.

the thing that really makes recordings like VH1 and Voodoo child (slight return) kick so much ass is that the fantastic little on the spot phrasings can stand alone and feel fresh. it's like a little sign that says "humans made this".

so much of what makes the best rock guitar music work is having one guy play one guitar all the way from the beginning of a track to the end, mistakes and inconsistencies included.

and even when hendrix got more into overdubs it was always to add musical depth...not to quadruple track the same exact riff. that way the nuances of the performance can breath and live a little.

vh I stands as one of the coolest ever sounds and performances on electric guitar. and it is 95% percent just the player, the guitar, and the amp in the room, in the moment. everything else is just a little frosting on top.

[w2w]

What he just said thumbsup

[mtstudios@charter]

The reverb chambers at Sunset Sound was the key to the left side being a reverb wash. I am pretty sure it was one straight 57 and a miked chamber at Sunset Recording Studio.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[eligit]

Originally Posted by w2w

What he just said thumbsup

i should just add that this is the reason the white stripes are cool.

jack white is not the guitar player that EVH was or hendrix was (and meg white is no bonham or mitchell)....but at least the albums make me feel like i am listening to people playing music, rather than some sterilized composite of a million tracks and takes stuffed into a computer.

another example is radiohead....they experiment like mad in the studio...and yet all the guitars are at MOST doubled by the sound of it. there are lots of nice spontaneous bits in the guitars....so even the most "produced stuff" sounds human. same with the beatles and pink floyd/david gilmour.

i think even using many multiple amps really changes the whole picture...it (along with tons of overdubbing of the same or similar lines) changes what you are listening to from an instrument like a violin or piano...into something else...this giant all encompassing smooth ocean wave of textured sound....which can be cool, effective, powerful, space filling, "huge", etc....but it loses a LOT of personality along the way.

i kind of like how john frusciante deals with this issue. he basically turns his guitar into a synth by running the tracks into one. this turns it into it's own thing, rather than trying to say "this is a guitar", the way these gigantic multiple guitar overdub things on modern rock/pop tunes do.

rant over.....

[SiliconAudioLab]

FROM EDDIE
March 8, 2007

SNIP...

...That’s why I have decided to enter a rehabilitation facility to work on myself, so that in the future I can deliver the 110% that I feel I owe you and want to give you.

Some of the issues surrounding the 2007 Van Halen tour are within my ability to change and some are not. As far as my rehab is concerned, it is within my ability to change and change for the better. I want you to know that is exactly what I’m doing, so that I may continue to give you the very best I am capable of.

I look forward to seeing you in the future better than ever and I thank you with all my heart.

Love,

Ed

www.van-halen.com - The Official Van Halen Web Site

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

The reverb chambers at Sunset Sound was the key to the left side being a reverb wash. I am pretty sure it was one straight 57 and a miked chamber at Sunset Recording Studio.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[CorkyTart]

Thats what I was going to say.

Originally Posted by seaneldon

how did van halen record? i'll show you.

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by eligit

so much of what makes the best rock guitar music work is having one guy play one guitar all the way from the beginning of a track to the end, mistakes and inconsistencies included.

[Toad]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

how did van halen record? i'll show you.

Is that the "grain of salt" mentioned?

[mtstudios@charter]

"Upstairs at Sunset Sound Recorders is a "live chamber" used for creating reverb effects. A key component of this chamber is a venerable Altec Lansing A7 Voice-of-the-Theatre. With all of the technology available to create reverb effects, it is intriguing that there is still a place actual recording in a reverberant room. The technique involves playback of a recorded signal through the A7 at one end of a very live sounding room. A microphone setup at the far end of the room captures the reverberant soundfield. The "liveliness" of the room is created with non parallel walls lined with hard, reflective materials. Supposedly current digital technology can not match the smooth natural reverb achieved with such a room."

I am almost positive this a major part of the Van Halen guitar sound on that first record (IMHO), reverb on one side and dry signal on the other.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[Sqye]

..

ok, FIRST:

get van halen's hands (and his brain).....



THEN.......

..




there's that great story ted nugent tells, from when van halen was opening for ted
back in the day. ted's listening to eddie play, and going OH MY GOD -
HOW DOES HE GET THAT SOUND??

so eddie let's ted play his guitar THROUGH HIS ORIGINAL PLEXI RIG, and of course,
ted, playing through eddie's rig, STILL sounds EXACTLY LIKE TED...

ted's thinking HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?? I STILL SOUND LIKE ME!!!??
(i mean, it's also NOT like ted was THAT much of a slouch, as a guitarist...)

so ted concludes, that eddie's entire sound is pretty much in his hands.....

i mean, after all, ted was playing EDDIE'S GUITAR through EDDIE'S RIG, right??


great story, and probably NOT very far from the truth....



anyway, sorry for the (maybe not so very) ot....

and good luck with all that panning and mic placement...

..

[CorkyTart]

Its still interesting how EVH still never recreated the tone on that first VH record on any subsequent albums.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

I am almost positive this a major part of the Van Halen guitar sound on that first record (IMHO), reverb on one side and dry signal on the other.

Blue Thumb Productions-Audio Production Facilities

I am 100% positive you are correct.

Corky (or anyone), did VH ever re-record at sunset? If not, then there ya go.

Great story about Ted, and while I agree with the basics of style (that being: skillful playing will always translate - pretty much), we still have to keep in mind - a sound is a sound. So if Ted plays an open A chord or Eddie plays one, that open A chord is going to have "that" same sound. Now if Ted wasn't doing hammer-ons and Eddie was, then that kinda goes back to playing style and skill.

I think I'm hearing on VH1: a Marshall with a sink/power soak (which could explain it was *not* modified), a 57, some form of compression from the usuals - either an LA2, LA3, LA4, 1176 (I mean, think about it, how are you going to keep a reasonably loud Marshall - even with soak - from overloading the tape?) anyway, lastly comes the chamber panned on the other side at mix down, of course the pedal effects on at the appropriate songs.

The other very impotant factor is tuning everything down a step to D#. It's why the bass guitar goes, like, fwap, fwap, fwap.

Also, don't forget there was a M.E. on that album as well.

[Protools Guy]

I thnk Ed also used a Variac to make his amp work harder, thus getting more gain.

BTW - Variacs are brutal on the output transformers.

[mtstudios@charter]

Originally Posted by Sqye

..

ok, FIRST:

get van halen's hands (and his brain).....



THEN.......

..




there's that great story ted nugent tells, from when van halen was opening for ted
back in the day. ted's listening to eddie play, and going OH MY GOD -
HOW DOES HE GET THAT SOUND??

so eddie let's ted play his guitar THROUGH HIS ORIGINAL PLEXI RIG, and of course,
ted, playing through eddie's rig, STILL sounds EXACTLY LIKE TED...

ted's thinking HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?? I STILL SOUND LIKE ME!!!??
(i mean, it's also NOT like ted was THAT much of a slouch, as a guitarist...)

so ted concludes, that eddie's entire sound is pretty much in his hands.....

i mean, after all, ted was playing EDDIE'S GUITAR through EDDIE'S RIG, right??


great story, and probably NOT very far from the truth....



anyway, sorry for the (maybe not so very) ot....

and good luck with all that panning and mic placement...

..

There were many records that followed VH1, were Eddie did not achieve that great sound that was on the first VH record. Which tells me that it is the magic/luck/player/gear/engineer/producer/studio, because it was never repeated by the same team. Either they thought they could improve on it or it just could not be reproduced. One thing for sure they knew the chain more than anyone. Go figure.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[CorkyTart]

The Marshall head on the first VH record was also lost after the first tour.

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

There were many records that followed VH1, were Eddie did not achieve that great sound that was on the first VH record. Which tells me that it is the magic/luck/player/gear/engineer/producer/studio, because it was never repeated by the same team. Either they thought they could improve on it or it just could not be reproduced. One thing for sure they knew the chain more than anyone. Go figure.

www.bluethumbproductions.com