How often are drum sounds samples?

[fooman]

Hiya!
Lately I've been toying around with using the Audiosnap feature along with it's SessionDrummer2 synth. It's really easy and it comes in very useful when the miced source simply is unusable. For example, my band tracked our drums up in Toronto (6 hrs away) and the snare is simply unable to be used as I need it to be used. It has this wierd 'whooshing' phase issue with the cymbals. I've personally never come across this before. Anyways, the engineer screwed up and I had to fix it. Samples to the rescue!

So today I was listening to the radio and noticed that during a song by Sum41, the snare hits were all perfectly levelled during every single drum roll without zero variation. They sounded like samples.

How often are drums sampled? And why are they sampled? Just for the ease of choosing the perfect drum? Is it because the mixing engineer would like his stamp on the song? I'm very curious.

[lowfreq33]

The answer is , "way more often than is actually necessary". This is the big trend right now, I try to only do it as a last resort. More often than not I'll layer a kick drum alongside the original kick, or maybe lay in a snare bottom sample with the snare top mic if I had limited input channels at the tracking date. The other times I've done it to compensate for an inconsistent drummer.

[fooman]

So when you're sampling over a bad drummer, how do you compensate for poor buzz rolls and all that? Is it in the way you blend the real and sampled drum?

[tazman]

Hey fooman - I have been trying to figure out how to do that with audiosnap and session drummer. How do you do that?

[Zwinter]

You know, rather than asking how many albums use samples it is probably easier to ask which ones don't use samples. The unfortunate side of this industry is most musicians aren't that good...but damn they look great on camera...and most engineers don't know proper micing techniques. When I was working in LA it was amazing to see someone like Jim Scott mic up a drum kit and how a subtle change in position can take an unremarkable sound to an entirely new level. A couple weeks ago I got some tracks by an engineer who supposedly working on HUGE projects and his tracks were pretty unusable…in fact, the room mic was compressed so poorly that in places it sounded more like a gate. So rather than spending my time on more important things I had to try and create something from nothing. In the end I think I used damn near ever patch cable in the room.

[fooman]

Originally Posted by tazman

Hey fooman - I have been trying to figure out how to do that with audiosnap and session drummer. How do you do that?

I'll do up a short summary
- Enable Audiosnap on the clip and adjust threshold so only the drum hits trigger a transient. Add or disable whatever transients you want.
- Add the transients to pool and "Copy As Midi Notes"
- Add a SD2 track folder with the midi and audio track in it, and load a drum sample into one of the drum modules in SD2
- Route SD2 audio track to the proper buss.
- Align the 'Now' cursor with the exact beginning of the clip you copied from.
- Paste the midi notes into the midi track you created with the instance of SD2.
- Double click the midi track's grid to get to the editing screen. Select all of the midi notes and Shift+drag them all down to the proper note on the keyboard on screen. You'll hear the drum sample when you hit the right note.

Once you get used to doing all that, you can replace a drum in about 2 mins.

[tazman]

thanks fooman, I'll give it a shot...

[grand]

Is this a serious question? I cant be. Just listen to the radio. The snare ALWAYS sounds the same, on each hit. And most mixers use the same snare in almost EVERY song they mix. Listen to any uptempo mix by Chris or Tom Lord-Alge. It's always the same snare, no matter what song you pick. And chances are, that Sum41 track was mixed by one of them.

[fooman]

Yea, it was a serious question...
Dunno about you, but I like to waste everyone's time and ask things to inflate my ego </sarcasm>

Tazman, lemme know how it goes. PM me if you need any help.

[doorknocker]

Personally I'd rather spend my time trying to improve my recording chops than trying to improve my sound-replacing chops. It might be necessary sometimes but the problem I see with samples is the same as with PODs, etc: They're tools and sometimes the may even sound perfect for certain songs but the over-reliance on these things will prevent you from getting better at recording and most importantly: getting a sound signature of your own that people will dig and that will make you stand out from the crowd.

I'd say it's a fad and like all fads it's bound to end at some point. (I truly am an optimist!)

[fooman]

Is it truly a fad? I'm not being a smartarse, just curious to your opinions. Due to the convenience of now being able to replace a snare drum in 2 minutes and then being able to try 20 different drums, could this be something that will always be used a lot since the technology makes it very easy now?

I, for one, am by no means a professional and everything I say is merely a humble opinion. I replace a drum sound if it is unusable and there is a lack of time to re-track it. No other reason thus far I've replaced a sound. I have layered kick samples underneath real recorded tracks yes, but that's simply to attempt to keep up with the Jones'.

[warhead]

I don't think it's a fad, it can sound much better with sample enhancement or replacement (snares, kicks). If it sounds better, are you doing anybody any favors by not doing it? You should always do your best to capture what comes in, and keep extra snares handy...but if the guy doesn't hit consistently or chooses the wrong snare for the mix, you have to make it work and use the tools at your disposal in 2007 and beyond.

War

[chymer]

Originally Posted by fooman

Due to the convenience of now being able to replace a snare drum in 2 minutes and then being able to try 20 different drums, could this be something that will always be used a lot since the technology makes it very easy now?

I, for one, am by no means a professional and everything I say is merely a humble opinion. I replace a drum sound if it is unusable and there is a lack of time to re-track it. No other reason thus far I've replaced a sound. I have layered kick samples underneath real recorded tracks yes, but that's simply to attempt to keep up with the Jones'.

Drums are augmented with samples alot these days, but its not a new thing from what I hear from some older cats I work with.

And if your only replacing your hits in 20mins then your not spending enough time on it.
I can tell you that replacing drums takes a lot more skill and time than you think to make them sound amazing. Im sure CLA has an assistant that is well trained in augmenting drums with samples and youd be surprised that the samples he uses are not all the same. Oh, yeah they sound the same to you when you hear them in the track, but youd be surprised. He mixes it up more than you think man. Listen to the recent Green Day record and how the character of the crack of the snare changes form each section of the song to the next, its like it appers to be the same, but its quite different, ah but its balanced amazingly well.

Anyway, theres more to it than you think I assure you and thats the art to it.

Mind you, I always start with a great recording and Ill mix the drums to have as much impact as possible and only then will I bring up the samples.

I dont get why some guys here make out like its a cop out to use samples?
Using samples is a mixing/production choice, not a recording choice.

Only use the samples if they sound great.
CHymer

[chymer]

Originally Posted by fooman

So when you're sampling over a bad drummer, how do you compensate for poor buzz rolls and all that? Is it in the way you blend the real and sampled drum?

If your DAW has side chaining...then send the sample that you rplaced the snare with to the key of a gate on the real snare track.
This should tighten up the real snare and any buzzes and stuff.
chymer

[Pies]

I use alot of drum triggering these days
as i work with alot of hard rock, metal and hardcore bands
i find triggering drums an invaluable tool for getting the punch and power i need on kick drums and snares..... (and the majority of the time this is the sound that bands are expecting from a studio recording these days)

Dont get me wrong if could acheive that sound by recording an acoustic kit and then processing it it would but, i just cant acheive the sound i am after without layering and mixing some triggers over my orignal tracks

Im am friends with alot of guys who work with indie bands who i have found are also starting to use triggering alot more than in the past

i think tiggering is the same as anything if its the sound your after and is done properly it sounds great and you can get some fantastic results, but done badly it sounds terrible

if your looking for a more natural sound when triggering drums trying playing around with usuing multi samples on your snare drum, which will make your rolls sound much more convincing + the same for toms if you are triggering them too....


hope that helps in some kind of way
ow

[nandoanalog]

They go into multi million dollars studios to sample their drums?...

Amaaazing....

I can imagine it now....

Sound engineer to some studio visitor:

- Well, this is our 1 million dollar mixer, this is our million dollar live room, this is our million dollar collection of mics, this is our million dollar cables, this is our million dollar effects processors. In order to capture the best sound we need all this million dollar gear. After it is captured, we go to our 1000 dollar mac and we use samples, beat detective, and autotune...

Studio visitor:

- Amaaazing....

[Pies]

sorry I posted the same thing twice then tutt

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by warhead

...but if the guy doesn't hit consistently or chooses the wrong snare for the mix.....

I faintly remember a thing called dynamics, I think it used to be a term assoicated with musical expression but I'm not sure, maybe somebody can clear it up.........

[fooman]

Originally Posted by chymer

And if your only replacing your hits in 20mins then your not spending enough time on it.
I can tell you that replacing drums takes a lot more skill and time than you think to make them sound amazing. Im sure CLA has an assistant that is well trained in augmenting drums with samples and youd be surprised that the samples he uses are not all the same. Oh, yeah they sound the same to you when you hear them in the track, but youd be surprised. He mixes it up more than you think man. Listen to the recent Green Day record and how the character of the crack of the snare changes form each section of the song to the next, its like it appers to be the same, but its quite different, ah but its balanced amazingly well.

Anyway, theres more to it than you think I assure you and thats the art to it.

I meant it takes a tiny bit of effort in my DAW to replace a drum and see if the sound vibes with the tune... however after I do this I obviously take some time to massage it and make sure the hits are coming out properly when and where they should be.

When I said the hits are all the same, I meant specifically the fast single stroke rolls. They were all exactly the same, and live most drummers of Sum 41 calibre cannot do them perfectly. This is why I asked. I'm a drummer myself, so I know practice makes perfect and touring drummers will be much better than anyone I personally know... which is why I asked this question. If it sounds too perfect, what are the chances that it is?

Good discussion on this tho. I am very appreciative of all the comments.

[lowfreq33]

OK, you've made me pull out the Zeppelin arguement. Check out Bonham's tracks, incredibly consistent in attack, tone, and volume. This is with 3 mics on the kit. A great drummer can pull this off no problem, but most drummers in bands can't do it. I see studio guys do it every day. Samples are most often used because the drummer can't play consistently and in time, or he has a crap kit. The Lord-Alge comments are pretty valid, but they get paid pretty well to do their thing, which is make things sound good on the radio. Chris has gone on record saying he doesn't usually replace drums completely, he just layers samples in to help the tone and consistency.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I faintly remember a thing called dynamics, I think it used to be a term assoicated with musical expression but I'm not sure, maybe somebody can clear it up.........

That's not what I referred to at all though.

War

[PhilR]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

They go into multi million dollars studios to sample their drums?...

I'd say they go into multi million dollars studios because they can get the sound they want from them.

You really think that many bands and their label backers care about the details?

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

They go into multi million dollars studios to sample their drums?...

Amaaazing....

I can imagine it now....

Sound engineer to some studio visitor:

- Well, this is our 1 million dollar mixer, this is our million dollar live room, this is our million dollar collection of mics, this is our million dollar cables, this is our million dollar effects processors. In order to capture the best sound we need all this million dollar gear. After it is captured, we go to our 1000 dollar mac and we use samples, beat detective, and autotune...

Studio visitor:

- Amaaazing....

yep. now cellos studio is where they record the east west sample librariess.

as for bands. they record using samples for the song demos to be produced. then record the real drums and then replace or augment if nesesary with samples.
but the real drums are going to sound more netural and better. and even better if you layer snare and kick samples.

IMOthis is hapening thanks to hip hop and modern pop where 909 ans 808 are used a lot thus making it less dymanic. thats the sound people like nowaday so why fight it. cause u wanna make a song that sounds like the beatles or pink floyd? those recording sound pretty bad copared to modern standards but what matter are the songs itself which nowadays as long as you bbut the dubmest most gossip full hot blond and its easy listening and not too edgy then its a standard.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by warhead

That's not what I referred to at all though.

I was kidding.......sort of.

The danger I see is relying on samples as some kind of safety net; you know that you can pull them up if things go wrong but pretty soon you'll realize that it's more convenient to use samples instead of spending time getting a great drum sound.

So in the end it's 'Why go thru all this trouble when we can use the samples in the first place'. Same with Autotune, nothing wrong with it and I use it too if necessary but where's the PRIDE??? I mean from the musicians as much as the engineers. Everybody's talking about 'what the budget allows' and so on but I want to see people going the extra mile and achieve something great....well maybe it's not always great but you stribe for it, learn and get better.

And I truly miss dynamics in most of today's music.......

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

cause u wanna make a song that sounds like the beatles or pink floyd?

ABSOLUTELY!

[ColourSurround]

I do believe that most pop acts, or anyone wanting to get mainstream in any genre uses more layering with the samples than outright sampling. I guess it's similar to the wall of sound technique; you want something to sound bigger and fuller use the samples on the kick and the snare from slightly different sounding sources to accomplish that.

I personally dig the dynamics afforded with a flat our recording, but then again since I'm in an apartment studio I'm using BFD for drum sounds. Though I definitely spend a good while tweaking dynamics a good bit. I find it fun, but MAN I wish I could mic a real drum kit in there (well for that matter haha)

[knightsy]

What a typical bunch of responses to this issue!

If you regularly mix stuff that other people have tracked, drum samples are going to be a reality that you will have to get used to - if the drums aren't decently recorded, what are you gonna do? Send the session back and tell the band and engineer to retrack it? I'm sure that'll go down real well.

[krytikal1]

i agree with knightsy. i get tracks everyday to mix from people, and i have no control over what they send me. they don't expect me to tell them i can't do it, they expect me to make it sound right. i could care less if i use sample replacements, analogue, digital.....whatever it takes. if it needs it, it needs it. if it doesn't, then enjoy the good sounding drums and move on to the song.

K

[warhead]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

And I truly miss dynamics in most of today's music.......

There is no pain, you are receding. thumbsup

War