Real VS Real? UA1176LN vs Plug? What I thought

[sonicdefault]

After many years of using both plugs and expensive hardware, I can honestly say that there is almost never a situation where I choose a plugin over hardware (if I have the option). I love plugs, but analog is like an entirely different universe. The great thing about plugs of course is the immediate ability to set them up and experiment, and the price. But from what I see happening in the plug-in world, plug-in processing has its own unique potential... and this is the ability to achieve sound characteristics in an exponential fashion. I'm speaking of the direction some designers are taking to allow their plugs to multiply the character of the modeled sound beyound the boundaries of analog gear. It may never have the dynamic equivalence of hardware, but this in itself may be the ace in the hole for the future of plugs. Have you guys tried the new TBK3 from Sonalksis? It appears they took this approach.
http://www.sonalksis.com/index.php?section_id=104

By the way, kittonian... I always appreciate your posts...

-SD

[Koed]

Originally Posted by barryjohns

1176LN vs. - Waves Ren Vox RTAS Plug

Well, I actually like this plug better than the hardware 1176. The Vocal reached out and grabbed you.

That's funny. I have the UAD 1176, but I always end up using the Renaisance Vox for main vocals.

Although I still think there's a depth in real hardware, you only get by passing through a pair of trannies.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Gear Tramp

I'm still trying to figure out why music today is so fatiguing.

Everything matters. I think the NOISE that consoles and hardware introduce actually HELP make music more enjoyable and comfortable to listen do.

DITHER.

No it's not dither that it's doing (although one hopes everyone's tracks have been properly dithered at each truncation stage...). What noise does is mask harmonics. Some harmonics you want in your tracks, but others you don't want, and one way of getting rid of them is burying them in a noise floor.

This certainly may be why some people prefer the OTB sound. ITB, with its enormous dynamic range, is revealing all sorts of flaws that people might not like. In which case, they ought to put some key-gated pink noise or something down 60-70db on certain tracks and give up the dynamic range in favor of the masking the noise in the hardware they miss would bring them.

BTW goat yoghurt and cheese can kick serious butt.

[zilver]

Originally Posted by peeder

No it's not dither that it's doing (although one hopes everyone's tracks have been properly dithered at each truncation stage...). What noise does is mask harmonics. Some harmonics you want in your tracks, but others you don't want, and one way of getting rid of them is burying them in a noise floor.

This certainly may be why some people prefer the OTB sound. ITB, with its enormous dynamic range, is revealing all sorts of flaws that people might not like. In which case, they ought to put some key-gated pink noise or something down 60-70db on certain tracks and give up the dynamic range in favor of the masking the noise in the hardware they miss would bring them.

BTW goat yoghurt and cheese can kick serious butt.

This sounds very plausible. I had a mix that was feeling too cold, and I added very soft wind and sea noise (the song was about the beach). That worked very good. I thought it worked because of more left/right movement (the added noise was very wide stereo), but in hindsight I think it was the masking effect you describe.
I think i'm going to try this more often.

Thanks,
Hans

[JP11]

Originally Posted by peeder

This certainly may be why some people prefer the OTB sound. ITB, with its enormous dynamic range, is revealing all sorts of flaws that people might not like. In which case, they ought to put some key-gated pink noise or something down 60-70db on certain tracks and give up the dynamic range in favor of the masking the noise in the hardware they miss would bring them.

The Waves SSL plugs have an option to add analog noise.

[kats]

Is there really any true long term success as far as mediums go? Time and technology march on, and everything changes.

Sure, analog recording has done well for close to 100 years and from the '50s on still hasn't been surpassed from a sonic point of view.

Is the pudding you're referring to the fact that CDs don't have a clear cut successor yet, or that the difference between a great ITB mix and a great OTB isn't overwhelming yet in the corner of the former?

No, I meant to say that in a mere 20 years (the last 10 or so in decline) the CD is this >< close to being dead.

I just don't believe in "good enough" or "as good as". To grow as an industry we should be striving for "better than", not "easier or cheaper than". IMO it's bloody embarrassing that as a generation, we can't do better than our Grandparents - they kicked their parents generation in the ass

[peeder]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Do you actually do that?

Yes I "do" goat yoghurt and goat cheese, when I'm in the mood.

But as for key-gated pink noise covering harmonics, I've not had to do this myself as I generally try to avoid the bad harmonics being produced in the first place, but it's certainly something I'd like to try. Seems this has occurred to others along the line...

[kittonian]

Originally Posted by sonicdefault

By the way, kittonian... I always appreciate your posts...
-SD

Thanks SD.

I think the one thing we all need to remember with regards to this discussion is that just because the end result will end up on CD or on iTunes, doesn't negate the fact that the better the product is to begin with (even prior to mastering) the better it will sound after it's been, well.. basically killed and stripped of its life.

Consider it likes this. If you record everything through amazing gear/converters at 24/96 and mix at 24/96 using an excellent combination of outboard gear and plug-ins, as well as possibly a large console such as an SSL 4000, and get this huge sounding, properly balanced, unbelievable mix, odds are you are going to have a pretty decent MP3 on your hands (even after all the downsampling and compression/limiting has been applied). Likewise, if you have an ok mix and don't worry about every tiny detailed item you can address to improve that mix, simply because it's going to end up smashed and downsampled, you will likely end up with a much worse sounding MP3.

We are the artists behind the gear and it's our art that makes or breaks the musician's vision at the end of the day. I think we all want to make great sounding records but we need to consider the inches we are losing by cutting certain corners. Sure, complete recall is a wonderful thing and it's very easy to achieve if you are mixing everything 100% ITB. Is it really that hard to write recall sheets? If so, save some money and get an SSL X-Rack and you'll have Total Recall across all buttons/knobs.

I speak to software companies all the time and even the people who work there will attest to the fact that analog gear has a different vibe that really adds something to the sound. I can't believe that anyone would choose to use all plug-ins if they were sitting in a room filled with all the gear they've ever dreamed of and a large analog console. This is not to say that plug-ins aren't worth it. They certainly are (and some are pretty cool). My point is that you should do whatever you can to achieve the best result.

add-on: i want to make it clear that my post here is not to generate sales for gear that we carry. my reference to the ssl x-rack was simply to point out that there are pieces of great outboard gear with which you can achieve total recall

[bcgood]

Just a thing to keep in mind for a lot of you reading this. Some people here have selfish motives, (They want to sell you gear) behind what they post...

bcgood

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Just a thing to keep in mind for a lot of you reading this. Some people here have selfish motives, (They want to sell you gear) behind what they post...

bcgood

Not all of them. I know one person in particular who always offers stella advice and opinions [IMHO] and has never once tried to push products onto me directly or indirectly.

YMMV

[Resonant Alien]

Originally Posted by Gear Tramp

I'm still trying to figure out why music today is so fatiguing.

Crappy mastering, that's why. And no amount of analog gear used during tracking or mixing will save a mix that ends up getting murdered by a crappy mastering job.

[deuc647]

I dunno if its just me, but instead of all the compressors and all the EQs, i try to nail it right on the first time around so i dont have to use so many plugs, i try to keep it to a minimum, i use the rcomp and rEQ and a couple others, just cuz i can get 15 1176s(hard or soft)doesnt mean my mix is gonna be better, if people lack mojo in their mixes, shouldnt the tracking process be looked at first?

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by Resonant Alien

Crappy mastering, that's why. And no amount of analog gear used during tracking or mixing will save a mix that ends up getting murdered by a crappy mastering job.

Amen brother!!! And I'm not blaming all the mastering engineers. In reality I don't like that many of these bands can't tell the difference. Then again like Queen said, "Under Pressure."

bcgood

[Resonant Alien]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Amen brother!!! And I'm not blaming all the mastering engineers. In reality I don't like that many of these bands can't tell the difference. Then again like Queen said, "Under Pressure."

bcgood

Yeah, you can't lay it all on the mastering engineers - they gotta put food on the table, and if the band demands that all life be squashed out of the mix, well......they need to get paid, right? You're right too - amazing that bands can't tell the difference and/or don't care.