Is it really all about the demo?

[quietdrive]

My friend sent me this:

I’ve found that good demos are usually the most important factor in finding a major label record deal and the most efficient way of generating enough label interest to get to the showcasing stage of your career. My advice on this front is beg, borrow or steal – in other words, do whatever it takes -- to come up with the cash to make good demos before you start to showcase.

Remember that most major labels are radio driven, and for the most part not in the business of selling your live show. I’ve seen bands that could barely play live get record deals because their demos sounded ready for radio. In these cases, the showcase was really just a formality -- the record company’s mentality being that even if you suck live, you can’t tell that over the radio. I’ve even heard of bands with great demos being signed without ever being seen by a label rep at all. On the other hand, I’ve seen amazing live bands that just couldn’t come up with decent recordings of their material, and which to this day remain without a deal.

[gainreduction]

In most cases, absolutely true.

What the average A&R is thinking when listening to new stuff is: Can I sell this ? If the demo sounds like it's on the air already it definitely helps the A&R think Yeah, I can sell this.

My demos (as songwriter) nowadays are full productions with live musicians where needed, full-on mix, professional mastering. The works.

Insane ? Maybe.

Does it help me pitch more songs ? 100% Yes.

Usually the artists end up buying the production aswell so many times it's work done, send invoice, smile.

A little story on demos, again as songwriter. I was asked to come up with something for a major artist at the time. Very tight deadline so I said I can write a song but the demo will be very simple, basically a guitar or piano and vox. The A&R said I can hear through any demo, no problem, it's about the song, right ?

He went "aah, good song but this is not right, no thanx". Some months passed by and the same A&R was still looking for songs for that artist. By then, the same song was full-on demoed and ready to go so I thought I'd f**k with him a little and sent it in. Same song, well produced demo. Hallelujah moment, why didn't you come up with that last time ? Absolutely Great ! Song went on the album.

[HIGHENDONLY]

I have a better idea go to every major city and setup up a pa with a mic in the big parts of the city and perform ur music, if you get big crowds and ur stuff is great, i bet u get a deal, but how big are ur balls???

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by HIGHENDONLY

I have a better idea go to every major city and setup up a pa with a mic in the big parts of the city and perform ur music, if you get big crowds and ur stuff is great, i bet u get a deal, but how big are ur balls???

That has nothing to do with balls, this has to do with stupidity.. or do you want to get arrested by the cops due to noise complaints?

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

A little story on demos, again as songwriter. I was asked to come up with something for a major artist at the time. Very tight deadline so I said I can write a song but the demo will be very simple, basically a guitar or piano and vox. The A&R said I can hear through any demo, no problem, it's about the song, right ?

He went "aah, good song but this is not right, no thanx". Some months passed by and the same A&R was still looking for songs for that artist. By then, the same song was full-on demoed and ready to go so I thought I'd f**k with him a little and sent it in. Same song, well produced demo. Hallelujah moment, why didn't you come up with that last time ? Absolutely Great ! Song went on the album.

PRICELESS!

[The dman]

By then, the same song was full-on demoed and ready to go so I thought I'd f**k with him a little and sent it in. Same song, well produced demo. Hallelujah moment, why didn't you come up with that last time ? Absolutely Great ! Song went on the album.

Did you tell him it was the same song you pitched to him before?

[goldenlotus]

Thanks for the wise words gainreduction. What genres do you write in?

[gainreduction]

Originally Posted by The dman

Did you tell him it was the same song you pitched to him before?

No.

[dbbubba]

A good demo is ONE thing that they'd want to see.
There are quite a few others.

Almost ANYONE can make a decent sounding record these days.
That makes the value of a "good sounding" demo in the big scheme be only somewhat a deciding factor.

It is a must have, but alone it doesn't do much.

A following with a good local/regional buzz is very helpfull.
A functional "machine" that is your act and production helps a lot.
The appearance that you will hang in the game for the long hual helps.
(This is why YOUR team has to bring serious money to the table.)

Most people who have not dealt with the process have absolutely no idea how a record deal works. Even then, it is a business venture and can be written almost any way that the parties agree is equitable.

Most poeple have a very imature view of what a record deal consists of.

So, no.... a demo alone won't get you signed regardless of how good it is.

Example: I can get with buddies of mine and create a tough-ass rock record quite easily, but are they gonna' sign us? NO!
The queston is... would I want them to sign us.... again.... NO!

[Levi]

So, no.... a demo alone won't get you signed regardless of how good it is.

Sure it can! An artist I produced a month ago is inking his deal as we speak... no showcase, no following, etc. Granted, he's a fantastic writer, great singer and virtually a model, so he's the real deal... but this is a perfect example that great demos only can STILL land you a deal. I've had this happen with several artists... some at indie labels, some at majors.

The appearance that you will hang in the game for the long hual helps.

Longevity of career is not even an option anymore... in the last 10 years, there have been VERY few "career artists." Basically, it's like the Motown days... once the singles run dry on an artist, their career is over.

I would agree that a "following" is helpful, but the label mindset is in "panic mode" and they're interested in quick returns from cheap budgets, not artist development and career artists. That's why so many of the demos become the masters we hear on radio... maybe a remix or a part added, but if the demo is there, it's basically become the master recording.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

A good demo is ONE thing that they'd want to see.
There are quite a few others.

Almost ANYONE can make a decent sounding record these days.
That makes the value of a "good sounding" demo in the big scheme be only somewhat a deciding factor.

It is a must have, but alone it doesn't do much.

A following with a good local/regional buzz is very helpfull.
A functional "machine" that is your act and production helps a lot.
The appearance that you will hang in the game for the long hual helps.
(This is why YOUR team has to bring serious money to the table.)

Most people who have not dealt with the process have absolutely no idea how a record deal works. Even then, it is a business venture and can be written almost any way that the parties agree is equitable.

Most poeple have a very imature view of what a record deal consists of.

So, no.... a demo alone won't get you signed regardless of how good it is.

Example: I can get with buddies of mine and create a tough-ass rock record quite easily, but are they gonna' sign us? NO!
The queston is... would I want them to sign us.... again.... NO!

Come on, dont kid yourself. You cant PRODUCE a hit, you can only write one. So, yes.. anybody can record a great sounding demo, but not anybody can record a great sounding demo that sounds like a hit. And lets be serious, if you and your buddies get together, and deliver a record that'd sound like the next Nickelback album, they'd sign you. Given that you dont look like shit and arent 50 years old.

[Levi]

You cant PRODUCE a hit, you can only write one.

I'd say the last 10 years, by majority, would negate this statement. How many of the songs you've heard in the last 10 years would you classify as "classics" that you'll hear on the radio 20-30 years from now? Production made hits in the late 90's and early 2000's, not great writing.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by Levi

I'd say the last 10 years, by majority, would negate this statement. How many of the songs you've heard in the last 10 years would you classify as "classics" that you'll hear on the radio 20-30 years from now? Production made hits in the late 90's and early 2000's, not great writing.

People listen to the SONG, not the production. If the lyrics and melody dont move them, then no production in the world can make them change their mind. The production is just a way to showcase the song. But its not what its all about. Just like an old vintage Neumann mic cant make a bad singer sound great (pre-autotune). If the singer sucks, he'll suck. No matter if you record him through the Neumann or a $20 mic.

[DeathMonkey]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Come on, dont kid yourself. You cant PRODUCE a hit, you can only write one.

A friend of mine once said (I'm paraphrasing) "No one writes a hit. They write a great song. The entire purpose of the producer is to MAKE that great song a hit." I feel ya, just presenting what I have always felt was an interesting perspective.

I'll say this - I've signed a few contracts in my day, and the only reasonI've ever seen for someone to put that paper in front of you is $$$. Either you are making a lot of it and they want in, you're about to make a lot of money with someone else and they want in, or you are about to infringe on someone making them a lot of money and they want control ( A band I was in once got signed and shelved for three years because of this).

So as we have seen in these threads, this can be a demo that shows that an artist has something they can make $$$ on, a crappy demo of an undeniably great song, a solid touring base that has proven to be profitable for the artist, a thriving MySpace following - whatever convinces them that they can make $$$ off of you is a valid path.

I will say this - labels seem to want whatever it is to be as developed as it's going to get. If you're an artist, yes, they want to hear amazing recordings so they know what you can accomplish. If you're a live band, they want to know you can bring the goods to any audience, any night. So while there are certainly grounds for a ton of arguments about how polished everything needs to be (and we seem to be having them this month), the only rule that I have seen in 25 years as a performer is money talks, bullsh*t walks - the only line is the bottom line.

[Steffmo]

I deal with record companies constantly. If you are staight up pop, the dmo is probably the deal.

If you are a band, you most likely have to make the first CD, or two, but have to sell 7500 of so to get considered.. some labels now don't eeven have real a and R types...they just scour Soundscan and BDS to find unsigned stuff getting some action at retail or radio,,,,and sign that.

[DeathMonkey]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

People listen to the SONG, not the production. If the lyrics and melody dont move them, then no production in the world can make them change their mind. The production is just a way to showcase the song. But its not what its all about. Just like an old vintage Neumann mic cant make a bad singer sound great (pre-autotune). If the singer sucks, he'll suck. No matter if you record him through the Neumann or a $20 mic.

I understand what you're saying, and I don't neccessarily disagree, but it's a fine line...just to be cantankerous, there have been quite a few songs that have not made a dent in the consciousness until they were re-recorded by the artist, or redone as covers. Sometimes even great production doesn't do it - the original version of "Cry" by Angie Aparo is excellently produced, and was on the same album as another hit ("Spaceship"). So it wasn't buried on some unknown album. Yet the song was dead until redone by Faith Hill.

Oddly on topic, Angie had shopped that song for over a year, I believe, and got no takers until it was on his own album... talk about making a demo!

Yeah, a 20 dollar mic isn't going to make a bad singer sound better, but a good producer kicking his a$$ to get the best, most emotional performance is.

[Nfinite2006]

damn

[Joemamma]

I think the demo is important.
But it's just as important to get the right people to really listen to it. Some of these record business people get a lot of good demos every day, and it takes a lot to impress them.

So you have to find a way to impress them!

[Sigma]

because there are no real A&R people left under 50 i say yeah

in the 70's PIR [philadelphia international thru columbia] took demos that were guys stomping a foot in a cardboard box for kick and hitting top of box for snare an upright piano and a vocal all caught thru a plastic mic and mono cassette deck..wish i had them now ...many top pop hits were "demo'd " that way

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by Sigma

in the 70's PIR [philadelphia international thru columbia] took demos that were guys stomping a foot in a cardboard box for kick and hitting top of box for snare an upright piano and a vocal all caught thru a plastic mic and mono cassette deck..wish i had them now

Mike, please don't tell me you threw away that demo tape I gave you.

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

they'd sign you. Given that you dont look like shit and arent 50 years old.

DAMN!!!

Figures.

[Sugarnutz]

Some people don't realize just how important a demo really is. Years ago when I had a commercial studio, we had several songwriters with a fair amount of country music success. On almost all of the songs they placed, the producers copied the demo arrangement lick for lick, I mean there wasn't a nickels worth of difference exect for maybe the key of the song, of course the singer was different and you might be able to tell they spent a little more time recording the track (but I think some of our demos sounded better than thier finished product). Todays labels and A&R don't want to do anything but make money off of you and the closer to finished you are the better.

[Tony Shepperd]

I've had at least 3 artist sign to a major label from the demo alone.
One of them got signed from a one song demo and a concept.

The less the labels have to do for an artist, the faster they are to sign the artist.

I had a meeting two weeks ago with the president of the label and all they wanted to know was how many friends/hits my artist had on their myspace page.

[Methlab]

If you are hoping to get signed as a rock act off of a demo, it better be UNREAL. Seriously.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

In most cases, absolutely true.

What the average A&R is thinking when listening to new stuff is: Can I sell this ? If the demo sounds like it's on the air already it definitely helps the A&R think Yeah, I can sell this.

My demos (as songwriter) nowadays are full productions with live musicians where needed, full-on mix, professional mastering. The works.

Insane ? Maybe.

Does it help me pitch more songs ? 100% Yes.

Usually the artists end up buying the production aswell so many times it's work done, send invoice, smile.

A little story on demos, again as songwriter. I was asked to come up with something for a major artist at the time. Very tight deadline so I said I can write a song but the demo will be very simple, basically a guitar or piano and vox. The A&R said I can hear through any demo, no problem, it's about the song, right ?

He went "aah, good song but this is not right, no thanx". Some months passed by and the same A&R was still looking for songs for that artist. By then, the same song was full-on demoed and ready to go so I thought I'd f**k with him a little and sent it in. Same song, well produced demo. Hallelujah moment, why didn't you come up with that last time ? Absolutely Great ! Song went on the album.

Cool story.

I was on an ASCAP panel a few years ago and part way throughwe digresseg to the debate of full on demo or piano/vocal.

I was in the full on demo camp, but some great points were made about particular artists responding better to a simpler demo where they can hear easier how they can put their own stamp on it. It was a really interesting point and another argument that the universal answer is "It depends".

Then again, we're talking demos for placing songs, not getting record deals.



As far as record deals, the subtext of trying to get us a record deal is "If you give us money, you'll sell millions of our albums", with the reply, "Really? Prove it."

There are lots of ways to prove it. You can say "My name is XXXXXX and I'm an established artist and my biggest flop went double platinum". That guy gets a deal.

Or, "I'm Dave Matthews and I've sold 50,000 albums on my own, making me more money that I would selling million with you." That guy gets a really good deal.

Or, "My songs and band are amazing, listen to this." and the A&R guy is going to listen and it doesn't matter what level of demo it is, that's your level of proof. Should he really risk his job speculating that given enough money and the right setting you will deliver and amazing album?

With a "demo" style demo you have no proof of what the final quality may be. In some cases and some styles of music, that may be fine. But in all cases, a fully produced demo that accurately represents what you can and want to do proves more and reduces their million dollar gamble.

In any context, if you can guarantee someone that if they give you a milllion dollars you can give them back more than $1.2 or more in a year, they will always give you the money. The issue is there's no way to guarantee it, so the more "proof" you have, demos, independent sales, sold out gigs, photos, videos, views of myspace and youtube pages, mypsace downloads, that proof reduces the apparent risk.

Then the next step is changing the apparent risk to another label signing you and that's when you get offers.

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

People listen to the SONG, not the production. If the lyrics and melody dont move them, then no production in the world can make them change their mind. The production is just a way to showcase the song.

watch your genres

i assume you are talking about rock, met, pop or country

i'll limit my comments to these as it seems most gs are rockers

Originally Posted by Methlab

If you are hoping to get signed as a rock act off of a demo, it better be UNREAL. Seriously.

no doubt.

labels are just people

many people who must risk their career on YOU

like any other group of people, they must believe they will be worse off without you, and the risk of bombing is still worth taking the chance

dead = "demo", lack of soundscan numbers or non-trackable or non-interactive fan base, or even a fan base under 10,000 (ymmv)

in = a fully produced and mastered CD with great songs, regular touring with great performances and great entertainment experience, a pair of really decent music videos (my opinion), a fan base developed and nourished through close and personal contact (email and txt), lots of merchandise to sell, maybe some investors to keep the lights on and hot dogs to shove down your gullet.

in = knowing who you are as an artist, what your message is and what you have to say; how you would like to make a connection with people and change their lives through your art of music; your targeted (and actual) fan base demographic, what the best way you feel is the way to reach them. (your "schpiel" for the media and the suits) getting quoted in local papers, magazines, blogs, myspace buzz, "best unsigned bands", etc.

assemble your team carefully but agressively, create a "family"

keep writing, even make ascap and bmi writers aware you might be open for the right songs, maybe you'll hear a hit, in case your hits turn out to be album fodder. theres nothing wrong with song "insurance" as long as you keep writing aggressively. after all, you will need hits one way or another.

then a few years later hopefully you will get to the point in your career when you don't "need" a label. i'll make exception of course to some pop RnB and hip hop solo artists (though the smart ones should do all these things anyways).

of course i generalize, but hopefully my winded point has been made

but if you expect a big group of people in a record label to lay on the line their future ability to put food on the table, roof over their head, sex in their pants and toys in the garage you have to to it ALL nowadays

a fully baked, silver platter deal where all they have to do is throw money at it (their favorite!)

and hey, maybe they might just be willing to give up everything holy for YOU.

[Jay Lee]

Originally Posted by The dman

Did you tell him it was the same song you pitched to him before?

Never, ever embaress an A&R guy, or for that matter anyone in the business. It' all about big egos, and you won't be working a lot if someone gets offended and starts to big mouth of you...

[quietdrive]

I think the title of the thread is wrong, cause what it really ALL comes down to... is... BUZZ!

If you got enough buzz, you'll get signed, even if your demo was recorded on a 2-track tape recorder with your mom and dad having sex in the background. Ewww

Ultimately all an A&R person wants is buzz. If the act doesnt work, he can blame it on the buzz. "Well, I had to sign them, everybody said they'd be huge, it's not my fault".

[gurubuzz]

IMHO record companies are mostly wholesalers not manufacturers of music that much anymore.

So they generally are looking for the quickest cheapest way to get a product ordered by a retailer and sold $$.

Just like an Ebayer Get it cheap maximize profit.

I knew a very talented girl heading a band and they wouldn't start the deal until she lost 15 pounds she couldn't do it...

[Levi]

People listen to the SONG, not the production. If the lyrics and melody dont move them, then no production in the world can make them change their mind. The production is just a way to showcase the song. But its not what its all about. Just like an old vintage Neumann mic cant make a bad singer sound great (pre-autotune). If the singer sucks, he'll suck. No matter if you record him through the Neumann or a $20 mic.

What might help this thread is that WE are musicians, producers, writers, etc. WE look at music differently (hopefully) and beg that our "end-users" will appreciate the craftiness of the lyric, the soar of the melody, and the interplay of a great chord progression. Unfortunately, most of the buying public wants something that moves them through production... think about the top hits of the year... Fergie, Justin Timberlake, Gwen Stefani, etc. It's all about groove, production, tricks, etc. It's NOT about a great lyric and melody!

In turn, many great artists that I would classify as "singer-songwriters" ARE exactly what you speak of... fantastic crafters of GREAT songs! Unfortunately, they are not the "players" in the overall sales in the industry.

As Mutt Lange always says... "I'm not producing records for musicians to love... I'm producing records for the checker at the local market to love!"