s.a.e.

[johnjogurt]

what is your opinion about this school..., i'm considering to go to los angeles...

[Paddlepop lion]

Can't tell you about the L.A one but is has a good rep in Australia.

cheers mate!

[deathman]

I graduated in Slovenia. It's a nice school... it's very good for n00bs in audio enginering! Still good for ppl that are in that bussines for some time. You learn a lot of new stuff and a lot of "why is this not working?!" . You work in some great studios... and it's cool... becouse you start on a budget gear and then proceed to PT HD studio ... the big one... I don't know how's the program in LA but they sure have better gear!

Cheers!

[Amstel]

Don't do it tutt

My humble opinion;

-Read every post on gearslutz or R.E.P.

-Invest your money in your own gear

-Maybe a little studio or mobile rig

-Experiment and try everything you've learned from the forums

-A Mwagener workshop (after reading all posts on gearslutz, so you can ask him everything that isn't clear yet)

-Try to get an internship at a good studio


I've done the normal course in Amsterdam and the BA degree in Australia. People that graduate at SAE usually think they are professional engineers.. Don't let the idea of having an 'creative arts' degree fool you! You learn way more if you get a job at a real studio and start a little project studio yourself. The only positive thing about SAE is that you meet a lot of people; the 'SAE network'

[auxpot]

thumbsup

i second the above poster...

i went to the sae when they opened up in germany...just to take a look and talk to these guys...a friend of mine was taking lessons there later...

i thought it´s joke....i was learning twice as much in half a year beeing a volunteer in a professional studio than my friend learned there on the whole course...
and i got payed, he had to pay....
very often he was just left alone with a tape machine or a daw and he could practice...that you can do on your own at home with own equipment, which is even less expensive than the sae fees you´d have to pay...
theory was a joke as well....the teachers weren´t 100% educated people, just spare time hobby teacher...in my opinion you could learn more, faster and deeper with getting the right books and forums....and again it´s a fraction of the costs of the sae fee....

so don´t want to diss anybody...i think if you have some spare time and spare money than it could be a great idea just to learn something...
but if you are seriously considering getting into buisyness, i would say there are more clever ways to spend your money on....
also i heard that big studios don´t really want to emloy people that graduated at the sae...they rather take fresh new people that doens´t think "i have this diplom, so i am a sound engineer, right? i am not going to clean up the storage room, i am here to ride productions.....

[The Byre]

It's a Darwinian thing, the SAE (and most other Music Technology courses) continues to provide a very useful vehicle for the downward mobility of the children of the middle classes.

Sons of doctors, lawyers and other professional classes, unable to get a proper education, go to one of these 'schools' where they get to pay a great deal of money to play with software and write pointless essays on "My Ideal Studio."

They then go on to become bag-boys, bell-hops, shelf-stackers and cart-pushers, leaving space that the middle classes would otherwise have bought up in real schools for those with a proper engineering degree to get a career.

[Roland]

You have got to ask yourself what are you training for? If it's to get a job in a commercial studio, forget it, many of those places have closed down, leading to a lot of unemployed (many good) engineers looking for work. Coming out of one of their courses and thinking that there are jobs available even for good candidates is folly. There is a lot of good advice from some of the above posters, being well versed in Pro-Tools isn't by any means a good way into the industry.

Regards


Roland

[Amstel]

Man of the Byre, you're statement is kind of stigmatic but nevertheless damn right!! I'm glad I've made the decision to go back to a real university after doing that bonafide SAE degree. Sae is a fraud!! The bachelor of honours degree is a total scam.

My advice; If you're dead set on an SAE course; go to the biggest school with the best studio's. There, you'll get the best information about big format consoles, pro tools, access to all pro equipment and information from (old) people of the industry.

However, once you've completed one of them courses you're still a noob..; get an internship!!

[Nu-tra]

Yeah it's a waste of money when you can buy your own gear. If you want to do it on the cheap Citrus College in West Covina has a nice program for little money. It's junior college so it's reasonable.

[Han]

It occurs to me that (I learn this from musician forums) these students learn from ex (graduated) students that the main thing in recording music is to avoid bleed at any chance and to always use a click track.

The only exception on these rules are being made when a jaz band enters the studio to make a recording for free and these jazz musicians demand to record it all at once in one room. The students don't know how to handle situations like this and when these jazz musicians threaten to leave the place at once, it's gonna be done like it was done since it was done in the waxroll era. But the students are in trouble now because they've never learned how to handle situations like this.

Of course I am joking, but really, bleed seems to be a big issue at SAE and of course it is pretty safe for an engineer to record everything free from bleed. But what about the music, what about the groove, swing, feel and rock? Do they learn about things like that? And what about recording a bigband or a 65 persons choir together with a rockband in one big room?

Because that's what it's all about, the difficult jobs, about handling bleed, about off axis response and how to make musicians feel comfortable so they can perform 100%.

Peace.

[benoïde]

I studied at the SAE and it was very useful to me. Now I'm not 100% satisfied of it, but struggled to make the most out of it. I now work for the national broadcast, and people like working with me and are happy with the results. I work on the radio, where I operate the console, edit interviews and shows, record music etc. I've also played in bands and done soundtracks for dance projects, involving music and sound design.

Now honestly, I saw very pretentious people there, but also very educated and talented ones (but they weren't the majority). And of course if you think studying at the SAE will make you a professional sound engineer in a 1 year course, you're dead wrong! Experimenting mic placement, compression etc, learning about electronics, acoustics, digital recording etc. takes time and I learn new stuff every day.

I can say SAE teached me a lot, BUT I've also heard that all sae centers are different, and the teaching is not of the same quality everywhere, as it depends of the teachers. I've also heard that the centre I studied at changed a lot, people don't have as much time in the studios as I had, etc. So best thing is to pay a visit and talk to past and present students. If you still want to go, talk to the teachers, see their background, ask for their resume. If you still want to go, ask yourself if there is not a better way to get access to what you want to do. If not then do it, it might work for you as it did for me.

[IJsman]

I don't understand why people keep acting like any type of job-related theoretical knowledge could ever be a bad thing.

home-recording+internships+sae>homerecording+internships.


anyone who tells you different is a fool.

[RCM - Ronan]

Take what I say with a grain of salt since I teach recording workshops a few times a year that are a bit of an alternative to SAE and the like for some people.

I hear very mixed things about all the big schools, and the thing that worries me is how often I meet graduates from the schools that are severely lacking in even basic principles of audio engineering. I understand that some people are bad students, but if a school graduates a student that does not understand proximity effect, then the school is just pushing them through for the cash and not making sure they are learning.

You need to figure you what you expect from the school, and what you hope to get out of it. If you have expectations about how much lab time you will have, how much hands on time you will get on what gear, who your teachers might be, ask them about those things and get the answer in writing.

I had an assistant that graduated from one of the big recording schools in LA, and our first time working on record together, he told me he had never recorded a drum set before.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by IJsman

home-recording+internships+sae>homerecording+internships.

anyone who tells you different is a fool.

$$$home-recording+internships+sae>$$$homerecording+internships.

It is not the case at my studio, but I know a few studios that will not hire entry level people that have gone to recording school, because there is a perception that people come out of recording school with an attitude and a disposition towards artists relations that does not fit professional environments.

[Tony"CD"Kelly]

From my experience, being at some of the top studios around, the word is they prefer Full Sail students over SAE students.... Take it for what it is, cause i think everybody is diff'rent. Bless thumbsup

[heathen]

I was a teacher at an "Audio School" 3 weeks after finishing the courses, I quit soon after as I was only semi confident with what I had learned, let alone teaching others.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by johnjogurt

what is your opinion about this school..., i'm considering to go to los angeles...

I have heard nothing but good things about HomeRecordingBootcamp.

In my opinion, at the bigger schools the cost vs learning ratio isn't so hot. In addition, they often have one big large format console that they try to teach you, and in my opinion those consoles are being used less and less.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by heathen

I was a teacher at an "Audio School" 3 weeks after finishing the courses, I quit soon after as I was only semi confident with what I had learned, let alone teaching others.

Good point.

You really have to consider who is teaching you, and are they a full time teacher, or someone who is actually constantly making records (that sound great) and who teaches on the side....

....or are they just a teacher full time as they couldnt cut it as a professional engineer.

[StuartMac]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Good point.

You really have to consider who is teaching you, and are they a full time teacher, or someone who is actually constantly making records (that sound great) and who teaches on the side....

Good point - I know someone who "graduated" from an Audio Engineering course in May one year, and was back at the same college as a teacher in September, having never done a single professional session in his life.

It's absurd, and one of the many, many gripes I have with these courses - how many of the "experts" teaching them have actually made records as an engineer or producer?

Virtually every new band I work with nowadays has at least one member who has done a two year course in Audio "Engineering". At least. That's been the case for almost a decade - and yet I can't think of a single one who would be capable of running even the most basic aspects of a session. Concepts like phase cancellation are completely alien to ALL of them. In fact, the very notion of mic choice and placement seems to be new to them as well.

Loads of them have huge debts they are doing really crap jobs for YEARS to pay off.

Almost all of them came out with the impression they were now professional engineers with highly-paid jobs waiting for them. In fact, I used to teach an evening a week, and the money was excellent, but I jacked it in because we were basically lying to these people again and again.

If I'm looking for an assistant for the studio I want the guy who's just left high school, genuinely keen (and NOT someone looking on it as a soft option rather than studying something "hard" like law) and with genuine natural flair, someone who is willing to work and learn on the job.

[patrox247]

Those who can't do...........

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Those who can't do...........

in terms of this particular line of question - soooo true.

I get CV's from lecturers on many of these courses looking for work. They can make my tea ....

[peeder]

I don't think recording school makes economic sense these days...you can set up a full DAW-based system with decent enough mics etc to get started for less than a year of tuition. And you can add all the books ever written on this subject for about a month of tuition. And then you read all the books and manuals and play with all the gear and read the websites etc. In the same year of work and for the same money, you come out with about the same (if not more) knowledge and experience, but now you have a studio you can keep using whenever you want.

I would prefer to listen to people's recordings they themselves have made than to look at a diploma if I'm hiring for a studio. I.e. the evidence is in favor of DIY.

However, a lot of people just can't get themselves motivated and focused like that. They have been indoctrinated in the school mentality and need a teacher and a carrot-and-stick and a classroom to compete with to focus. I don't blame them for that; that's our assembly-line educational system at work. Although I would think most people go into music as an adverse reaction to that kind of thing (cf. Pink Floyd The Wall).

If I was teaching courses in music recording (and I have, although not like this), I would do it this way: I'd get real bands that wanted to make real records. I would tell the band I would record them for free if they would let me teach a class as they recorded. It would take three or four times as long, but the students would be footing the bill. Then I'd explain to the class every single thing I was doing at every stage, thinking out loud. Not a single step, no preparation or nothing, would be done outside of the presence of the students. I would do this over and over with several bands of different genres so the students could see the entire process in action.

The most important thing would be me myself, the teacher, making mistakes and showing how I compensate for them. This is the thing teachers are most afraid of: letting the students see them sweat. They feel a need to maintain an image of omniscience in front of their class; otherwise the class might feel ripped off. But recording is just like driving or flying: rather than graceful, perfect, pre-ordained masterstrokes, it's a process of constantly making little adjustments and corrections in light of conditions. Mastery involves learning the process of optimization, not somehow magically doing everything perfect at once. So I would tell the class everything I could have done better and have the courage to show them how I continue to learn as well.

Keeping the band on track, dealing with them personally, would show some of the interpersonal skills, the creative conflicts, etc. This would be tough since they might be embarassed in front of a whole class, but hey, they're getting an album done for free. I may even pay them if the economics worked out like that. And I would film some of these and make videos of them all complete with full DAW session files etc. to work with at home.

[heathen]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

Good point.

You really have to consider who is teaching you, and are they a full time teacher, or someone who is actually constantly making records (that sound great) and who teaches on the side....

....or are they just a teacher full time as they couldnt cut it as a professional engineer.

I had'nt even tried to be a pro at this stage, had just finished my course, the only recordings I had made were the bands we did for practical lessons. I felt a part of a fraud and left, actually I think they still owe me $200.

Admitedly the studio where I did the course was a pretty good 1, analog console, 24 track tape, so I did learn how to record to tape, which was invaluable, something a lot of schools fail to offer these days. The first digital system there was 4 channel soundscape, was a long time ago.

Anyway my main gripe was about students teaching students, this is rediculous, they would not do this in any other learning environment, so it seems to me the actual schools owners must find it amusing, as they keep doing it. I'm sure they could afford to pay teachers who have at least some professional experience. They must be making more than $100 000 a course with say 20 students in each.

[Slipperman]

Latest/greatest in a long series of scams to hoover money from musicians and their parents.

Blatantly aided and abetted by the Pro audio manufacturing community.

Perpetuated by the Pro audio media.

Establish a myth/jones. Exploit market.

End of story.

Tens of thousands of "let's give jr. something to fall back on".... suckers fleeced every year for a TINY job market.'

Welcome to hell.

Hope ya love audio. 'Cause yer gonna be suffering for it.

Better chances in professional boxing.

No different than being a 'performance major" at Berklee in 1978.

All in all.... Probably worth it.

(old scam)Gives Mom and Dad a credible explanation as to why jr. is playing 4 notes on bass in a punk band, sleeping on park benches, when he was clearly SUPPOSED to be joining Return to Forever shortly after graduation.

(New scam) Gives Mom and Dad a credible explaination as to why they hafta lay out tens of thousands to help jr. buy "His own studio" after he can't get a DAMN thing going after graduation. Much more profit in new scam. Especially with the "digital revolutions" 18 month window of planned obsolesence in technology.

Genius.

SM.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by heathen

Anyway my main gripe was about students teaching students, this is rediculous, they would not do this in any other learning environment, so it seems to me the actual schools owners must find it amusing, as they keep doing it. I'm sure they could afford to pay teachers who have at least some professional experience. They must be making more than $100 000 a course with say 20 students in each.

Now you know how Meisner could afford to buy AMS-Neve!

[UnDeFiNeD]

man, I can't believe all the BS written here about SAE!

If it's too much cash, go search an intern job in a studio.

If u think it's your golden ticket into a great studio-engineering job...fat chance, everyone has to prove his worth regardless of what education u have had if u want to 'make it' in this bussiness.

I read stuff like "they push you trough, cause you payed a lot of cash". Well, uhm, why did only 3 ppl of the 20 graduate last week here in SAE Brussels? Good ppl in that class mind u!

I read stuff like "they teach u that u should always record musicians seperated, how to place your OH's etc..." BIG BS!! Here they allways taught me and the others that the genre and demands of the musicians are nr.1, and if a jazz band comes in, the demands will be completely different from a trash metal or a rock band or hiphop project, thats what I love about this school! They never tell me how to do something, unless I get should stuck and ask for assistance, then they give u a variation of options witch u can or can't follow, the only thing that gets graded is the 2-track, end result, and they don't have to know how much dB of compression u pushed on your compressor, or how many days weeks or minutes u worked to get the results.

All my teachers are professionals, who have done a lot of known projects here in my country. We learn to work with Neve, SSL's, Protools HD setups, logic, cubase setups and 24-track tape, in-line consoles, HD-recorders, etc...
Now u tell me...how the hell are u gonna learn that by making coffee in that comercial studio?
Studio owners aren't (always) buzy trying to TEACH interns, they are doing their jobs, wich is finishing the project as good as possible, no room for experiments since it's the clients money on stake.

SAE isn't a substitude for real life studio experience, neither is lawschool's going to make u a perfect lawyer...but it's a start, it's EDUCATION, not your ticket 'in'
I did some commercial cd releases before I attended SAE, and my fear of getting into a school wich costs a lot and teaches u nothing (like what everyone is babbeling about here) was proven completely untrue, when was the last time u learnt about impedance matching working as an intern for example?

Maybe the SAE schools differ a lot, and there is no doubt that different teachers make different schools, so to draw a red line between all sae schools would be false.

But think before u talk dirt about these schools, cause I for one learnt a lot there, far more than I learned in any other studio experience I had in the 10yrs prior to going to sae.

[SergioS]

Sae..? Well, there are probably two types of mentioned school. The one group are schools situated in big cities(NYC, London, LA...) where you get to learn on excellent equipment and being tutored by some well known producers and engineers who visit those premises from time to time, and then the other group are sae schools in small countries with equipment no better than average home studio and teachers averaging 20-25 years old. I visited an open day in such school in Slovenia. At the end, I got the really bad feeling that big time chief Tom Misner realized that there is quite good East European market of "engineer" wannabes waiting to be plundered. I mean, studio in which students learn is even under average home studio. For the price you pay sae to learn "big tricks" you can easily set up the same exact studio at your home and pay to someone who has few records done (all those teachers put together have 0 published LP's produced or engineered whatsoever,ccc...).
As for that first group of sae schools, thumbs up, I'm sure you can learn some good things, and if nothing else, get to know real eqipment.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by StuartMac

Good point - I know someone who "graduated" from an Audio Engineering course in May one year, and was back at the same college as a teacher in September, having never done a single professional session in his life.

Part of the reason that I started to produce and engineer myself was suffering through a horrible recording session in Germany with an 'engineer' that- and I'm NOT making this up- didn't know what a SM 57 was......... The record, which was fully paid by a wannabe 'manager', obviously turned out horrible and imagine my shock when I Googled said 'engineer' about 2 years later just for fun and found out that he's teaching audio courses at an University in Germany.......Unbelievable.

[Vum]

I went to SAE Amsterdam and we started our program with 27 or 28 people. When we finished, we had 8. After I left I've been constantly busy as a freelancer. In fact, most of the people who finished have jobs in music or audio. The thing is, at a studio as an intern, you're not going to get 12 hour bookings where you can work without the pressure of a label or a producer. It's a good learning experience and a great way to learn the mechanics and the physics behind not only the equipment, but the nature of sound itself.

The thing is, people leave the school expecting to get jobs because they have a diploma, and I feel the weakest aspect of the school was the lack of non-studio related work environments, ie, how to find a job or what non-studio audio jobs exist.

But that's BS as well because you have to start at the bottom and that's the way it is. And thank god too, because there are a lot of non-session mistakes to make before you move up. Like, losing ADAT transfers (did the transfers again, took 4 hours), double booking yourself and not sleeping the night before ($2 Guinness), etc.

After the school though, you'll still have to start pretty low on the pole, the only thing is you're available to work from the start.

There is though, nothing worse than someone who just came from these schools talking and acting like they "know all there is about Pro-Tools" or some other audio facet that just cannot be true.

I had an intern once who came from a school in Dallas edit parts of a region in Shuffle mode and asked "why does this not sound right".

[Vum]

One caveat, without a proper degree from a university first, I would not have been able to support myself before drumming up demand for my services.