s.a.e.

[Jules]

I have talked with teachers from recording schools, including SAE. What they gripe about most is - the DJ wannabe students. These are kids that are just killing time at the schools, who only want to learn how to 'make beats' with reason / fruty loops, pose around and say "I am a DJ" etc.. There can be quite a lot of them and the genuine recording engineering interested students can sometimes seem like the minority.

The teachers find that lazy DJ posse boring and appreciate students that REALLY want to learn.

So the trick is, keep your head down, go full speed ahead to get to where you want to be.

[JulianBrightnes]

Originally Posted by The Byre

It's a Darwinian thing, the SAE (and most other Music Technology courses) continues to provide a very useful vehicle for the downward mobility of the children of the middle classes.

Sons of doctors, lawyers and other professional classes, unable to get a proper education, go to one of these 'schools' where they get to pay a great deal of money to play with software and write pointless essays on "My Ideal Studio."

They then go on to become bag-boys, bell-hops, shelf-stackers and cart-pushers, leaving space that the middle classes would otherwise have bought up in real schools for those with a proper engineering degree to get a career.

Well, I went to SAE Amsterdam (in addition to a university degree in music) in 1999, graduated in 2001. Had a great time and learned a lot. Have been employed in the audio busines ever since as an engineer/sounddesigner presently owning a very succesful company here producing music and sounddesign for commercials.
So what you state above may be true for some people attending SAE, but not for me.
And I paid for it myself....

Cheers, Julian

[JulianBrightnes]

Originally Posted by Jules

I have talked with teachers from recording schools, including SAE. What they gripe about most is - the DJ wannabe students. These are kids that are just killing time at the schools, who only want to learn how to 'make beats' with reason / fruty loops, pose around and say "I am a DJ" etc.. There can be quite a lot of them and the genuine recording engineering interested students can sometimes seem like the minority.

The teachers find that lazy DJ posse boring and appreciate students that REALLY want to learn.

So the trick is, keep your head down, go full speed ahead to get to where you want to be.

exactly

[Mr. Man]

Originally Posted by benoïde

I can say SAE teached me a lot, BUT I've also heard that all sae centers are different, and the teaching is not of the same quality everywhere, as it depends of the teachers.

Don't you mean, SAE taught you a lot?
(bad grammar)

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by Mr. Man

Don't you mean, SAE taught you a lot?
(bad grammar)

It's a good idea to check the location of the poster before criticising bad grammar.
(Bad manners.)
x10

Or perhaps you thought, as many other Americans, that Brussels was in Texas?

[Fleaman]

There was a sae grad that posted here High End adat machines He wanted to get an ADAT because he wanted the sound of 'tape'

And he was a rather proud sae grad (obviously making it his user name).

Apparently he felt embarrassed in the end as I can now see that he's deleted all of his user details.

Use the $$$ to buy a full equipment set up instead. Then use it, learn it, do it. If you have true passion, you will prevail. True passion and the 'smarter' ones get short-changed in most of these schools because they dumb things down to the lower denominator of the students.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by The Byre

It's a Darwinian thing, the SAE (and most other Music Technology courses) continues to provide a very useful vehicle for the downward mobility of the children of the middle classes.

Sons of doctors, lawyers and other professional classes, unable to get a proper education, go to one of these 'schools' where they get to pay a great deal of money to play with software and write pointless essays on "My Ideal Studio."

They then go on to become bag-boys, bell-hops, shelf-stackers and cart-pushers, leaving space that the middle classes would otherwise have bought up in real schools for those with a proper engineering degree to get a career.

Sticky this post.

It is so smack on -- it's bloody scary.


One MORE thing to remember: the mountains of student loans many folks take out to pay for schools like SAE, FullSail, etc (henceforth known as "loan mills" in this post) will almost certainly never be able to be paid back by the paltry wages most graduates will make as they struggle to get "ahead."

And -- thanks to the draconian "bankruptcy reform" pushed through by Bush's pals in the former Congress, those poor sods will very likely NEVER be able to escape the onerous -- mountainous -- burden of debt with income from recording...

Originally Posted by Fleaman

There was a sae grad that posted here High End adat machines He wanted to get an ADAT because he wanted the sound of 'tape'

And he was a rather proud sae grad (obviously making it his user name).

Apparently he felt embarrassed in the end as I can now see that he's deleted all of his user details.

Use the $$$ to buy a full equipment set up instead. Then use it, learn it, do it. If you have true passion, you will prevail. True passion and the 'smarter' ones get short-changed in most of these schools because they dumb things down to the lower denominator of the students.

Better sticky that one, too...

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Man

Don't you mean, SAE taught you a lot?
(bad grammar)

What the Hell?!?!? How is your French and Flemish?

As a guy that can only speak one language modestly well (and bastardize some others) I think all of us that speak English are really lucky so many people around the world make an effort to be a part of the Gearslutz community typing in what may be their second, third or seventh language.

As a guy that travels around the world a lot making records, one of the really wonderful things about music and recording technology is that so many of the the terms are similar, and makes it easier to bridge language gaps and work with people, and I have yet to see any ones ability to properly conjugate a verb have any impact on their ability to make awesome sounding mixes or get a killer kick sound.

[UnDeFiNeD]

There was a sae grad that posted here High End adat machines He wanted to get an ADAT because he wanted the sound of 'tape'

I also heard stories from live-sound tech's on concerts I did where I said I am attending SAE, claiming they get SAE grads in who don't even know the routing of a live console...only 2 explanations for those people:

1.They never graduated.
2.They took the 'electronic music producer' certificate.

We work with adat's regularly, format the tapes, record on location, transfer them to DAW's trough lightpipe. On console routing level we have to know the guts of Neve 88's and SSL 9000's down to every user-option and modification commonly available...so a live table's routing is a bit less complicated than a neve's, if u ever worked with an 88 u know what I mean.

I have talked with teachers from recording schools, including SAE. What they gripe about most is - the DJ wannabe students. These are kids that are just killing time at the schools, who only want to learn how to 'make beats' with reason / fruty loops, pose around and say "I am a DJ" etc.. There can be quite a lot of them and the genuine recording engineering interested students can sometimes seem like the minority.

The teachers find that lazy DJ posse boring and appreciate students that REALLY want to learn.

So the trick is, keep your head down, go full speed ahead to get to where you want to be.

Have to agree with Jules 100%, at the start of the year (I'm attending fulltime) u have a lot of 'dudes' who like making 'beats' for their rapper friends, they don't care about cleaning tapeheads, tuning drums and mic position possibilities on them, gain staging, and etc.
These 'dudes' don't make it, they leave pretty quick, and if u do the full-time program, then at the end, only the good, persistent stay. (we are only a class of 5, and started off with 14)

Pzz

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by UnDeFiNeD

I also heard stories from live-sound tech's on concerts I did where I said I am attending SAE, claiming they get SAE grads in who don't even know the routing of a live console...only 2 explanations for those people:

1.They never graduated.
2.They took the 'electronic music producer' certificate.

3. They were good at school.

Graduating SAE says one thing for certain: You passed all of SAE's requirements to graduate. How you did it or how much you really learnt or absorbed is another matter. Don't forget that for a total newbie, this is a very complex field and you're not gonna absorb years of engineering no-how in a 2 or 4 year school program. Problem is, everyone is different...some go into a school with quite a bit of knowledge looking for that extra something special, while others might have only played with Garage band, both of these people with be short changed...one being left behind, spending way too much $$$ to learn the basics, the other feeling unfulfilled in gaining any extra knowledge.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" --Mark Twain

[LeMauce]

Did the AE program @ SAE in Paris, France.

We started with 44people... 12people after 2years where able to do the final exam. 8 got there diploma.
I got it. It was fun and learned a lot next to what I already knew. But yeah there are a lot "wannabe" figures walking around. Concentrate and gogogo.

The SAE diploma is for me like a driver license. When you finished and leaving the school. You are NOT the new Schumacher... You need to learn how it's works in the real world with pressure and ZERO fault attitude. Interning for 2 years @ a professional big studio(s) is the only way to learn.
It's a slow process... the problem is that the youngster (around 20years old) today don't have the patience any more to learn the art. They want it all and they want it now.
I'm finally starting PART-TIME for my self almost a year ago (I'm 27years old). The other time I'm still in a pro-recording studio, learning from other greater and older engineers.

[Magucci]

First of all SAE is a school where you can practice a lot and that is the ONLY good thing about it. You can learn how to work with consoles and outboard.

I know most of GS dream about the equipment you can find in most sae studios but you will never get quality out of that gear. Nothing works for 100%. You are lucky if you get 80% out of that stuff. It's a shame for the amount you pay for the education and most of the gear is sponsored. The rooms are not treated well. The teachers if they are good then only at theory not practice. You will learn a lot about theory, but will you ever need or use that theory. Maybe, maybe not.

You can save the money and invest in your own gear but most of you are just looking what successful studios in the past have listed on their equipmentlist and buy that stuff or read on GS and then do the purchase. Sure it can work for you but to be honest you will 100% know after you've tested the gear and knew how it sounds or behave.

I have no regrets about my time at sae. I learned a lot what I need and what I'll never need. I don't need Pro Tools HD, 500K consoles, garbage patchbays and wallboxes and tons of poor cables and all that kind of things to be successful.

[windmillsound]

I went to S.A.E. about 10 years ago.

First of all I thoroughly enjoyed my time there and I learned a great deal.

I paid a huge amount to go there.

Only one person in my class got a job.

I wrote to or visited every studio within 200 miles and continued to pester them for a couple of years. There were no jobs and no internships available.

I do record people now - but only because after a few years of working in IT I could afford to set up my own studio.

Regardless of which college you go to (I don't think S.A.E. is the worst by any means), more people take audio engineering courses each year than work in the entire industry. The vast majority of people will not get jobs. So if you have the cash to spend a year or two doing something enjoyable its great, but if you want a job as a sound engineer that's another matter.

[Roland]

The real problem is that there is little point teaching people to use SSL9000J's or Neve 88's, as very few studios have them. The "big" boy's i.e. broadcasters, BBC, etc, use different types of kit. With the exception of a few big studio's still left, most operations are producer/engineer owner led, who may or may not hire an assistant, depending on how they like to work. Personally I do think that there is some value in training in our industry, however, it has been so badly fragmented, or misdirected to the actual needs of the employers, that much of it is of little worth. Additionally, many of the "so called" sound recording schools are privately run and therefore are likely to put profit before quality, even in the government run public sector, almost all Universities and Poly's offer Media Studies courses as it is much easier to get people to sign up to them rather than a quality Mathmatics, English or Physics degree.

IMHO education has got to start reflecting real world uses or a whole generation is going to get "screwed".

[pongmaster]

education has become a big business, not only audio, its a real problem.

[LeMauce]

Originally Posted by Roland

The real problem is that there is little point teaching people to use SSL9000J's or Neve 88's, as very few studios have them. The "big" boy's i.e. broadcasters, BBC, etc, use different types of kit. With the exception of a few big studio's still left, most operations are producer/engineer owner led, who may or may not hire an assistant, depending on how they like to work. Personally I do think that there is some value in training in our industry, however, it has been so badly fragmented, or misdirected to the actual needs of the employers, that much of it is of little worth. Additionally, many of the "so called" sound recording schools are privately run and therefore are likely to put profit before quality, even in the government run public sector, almost all Universities and Poly's offer Media Studies courses as it is much easier to get people to sign up to them rather than a quality Mathmatics, English or Physics degree.

IMHO education has got to start reflecting real world uses or a whole generation is going to get "screwed".

BINGO. Thats why I was a intern in a studio that had a 9000K 72ch, 48ch Neve V2 + 16side stereo car, 48ch SSL4000 and a Sony Oxford. To learn all the biggies that are around. You can't not learn that at SAE. Neither with a producer watching your back, demanding clients and sometimes world class artist. There so much more then SAE only. Like I say... SAE diploma is like a driver license, the real experience you learn on the road. Only the diploma helps you to not to crash that quick or not...

[muziekschuur]

I went to SAE Rotterdam.
I learnd alot. I should have bought gear instead.

6000 euro is the amount you can buy a nice console for. Maybe that would be a good investment. Buy some decent stuff. Fun stuff about that is you can sell it after you learnd.

At this time bands do everything themselves. I don't think there is a big future in audio engineering. But audio and video will allways be there...

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by muziekschuur

But audio and video will allways be there...

Focus on video/editing if you want to make a living.

Boring as hell, but that's where the jobs are.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

Focus on video/editing if you want to make a living.

Boring as hell, but that's where the jobs are.

That's been hit too.

I have a friend that is a BBC director, done some of their major shows, often now he is required to write, direct, film and (if he want's to get it done) edit the piece himself. Ok these are special interest items on regional TV, but as he told me, a few years back there would have been a crew of 4-5 to do the job, not any more.

If you really want to make money, financial services, accountancy, doctoring, politics, certain area's in computing. It's a small elite in Music that make any real money.

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by Roland

That's been hit too.

I have a friend that is a BBC director, done some of their major shows, often now he is required to write, direct, film and (if he want's to get it done) edit the piece himself. Ok these are special interest items on regional TV, but as he told me, a few years back there would have been a crew of 4-5 to do the job, not any more.

Only the last of those examples is Post production.

At least here in the U.S., with the prevalence of hundreds of cable networks (History channel, Animal Planet, Discover, Nat Geo, Travel channel, etc., etc.), there's lots more grunt editing work than before those channels existed.

Long hrs, (entry) pay sucks, but it's work and work that you can't get doing 'just' music.

[AcoosticZoo]

Selling the dream/sizzle: Just becos graduates don't get straight into a paying job, doesn't mean that schools like SAE/Fullsail are completely a waste of time. I think for those that can afford it, it's a good step for "self" education. But note that upon graduation, you're journey has only just begun.

Getting a graduate degree in any field isn't a guarantee to a job anyway - audio/music field is no different. What you "gain" from a formal education is up to you. No doubt that all creative arts industry poses some serious challenges to gain a successful career.

I think students should be aware that these audio/mixing/engineering degrees are for self education and the piece of paper/professional recognition doesn't give you any edge in getting a job.

I guess the lesson here is not to do music/audio/mixing with the sole purpose of making money or a professional career out of it. If your motivation to do music/audio engineer is for the love of it then you're on the right path. Do it cos you love it.

Personally, I believe everyone's path to success is unique - and doing a course like SAE could benefit you (in terms of knowledge).

Good luck with your decision and may you find success/happiness in everything you do.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[joeq]

Originally posted by saeshit
Words such as the “f word” the “b word” are openly spoken by the teachers in lectures....

Not only that, but some of the students are so abusive as to use the "s" word in their online names!

The student lobby is always noisy, where even the staff use abusive words and laugh out loudly.

HA HA HA , what the f*ck is wrong with those shitheads?

How are students supposed to prepare for the dignity, decorum, and somber reality of recording rock and roll bands, metal heads, punk rockers and crazy hipster jazz musicians if jocularity is permitted in the lobby?