Firewire upgrade path for Mini-Series?

[chris5s]

So we hear that Firewire versions of Mini-Me and Mini-DAC will be available "before the end of the year". Since the Mini-DAC can be ordered with our w/out USB interface, I'm wondering if I could buy a Mini-DAC right now and then add a Firewire interface later? And what would be the cost for the additional FW interface?

Cheers
Chris

[Max]

Originally posted by chris5s
So we hear that Firewire versions of Mini-Me and Mini-DAC will be available "before the end of the year". Since the Mini-DAC can be ordered with our w/out USB interface, I'm wondering if I could buy a Mini-DAC right now and then add a Firewire interface later? And what would be the cost for the additional FW interface?

Cheers
Chris

We do not have pricing for the Mini Firewire card yet, but indeed you can get a Mini-DAC now and add Firewire later.

[chris5s]

Originally posted by Max
We do not have pricing for the Mini Firewire card yet, but indeed you can get a Mini-DAC now and add Firewire later.

Max,
that is good news, 'cause USB isn't really an option for me. What about powering the Mini-DAC via Firewire and daisychaining to other FW devices? Will that be a feature of the card? If the answer is yes and there is an according official announcement on the Apogee website, you've won another customer ;-)
Chris

[Max]

Originally posted by DrBoom Judging by the size of the hole for the existing USB option, it looks like you won't be able to get more than one Firewire port in the case. I hope Firewire hubs are part of the testing program.

Lack of Firewire is what's keeping me from buying one (or both) of these, btw...

It would be *really* nice if the whole box could be powered by the host machine, but I suppose that's asking a bit much, eh?

Yes, powering from Firewire is asking a bit much for the quality we are talking about. As for Firewire hubs, they are part of the testing program and will work fine in conjunction with these units.

[jobi7]

Originally posted by Max
We do not have pricing for the Mini Firewire card yet, but indeed you can get a Mini-DAC now and add Firewire later.

Does that mean that if you have the USB option that you can swap it with Firewire later? Thanks.

[Max]

Originally posted by jobi7
Does that mean that if you have the USB option that you can swap it with Firewire later? Thanks.

Yes, there will be an upgrade path for USB to Firewire. This will not be an even swap, as Firewire is much more expensive than USB, but it will be less expensive than buying the card outright.

Again, we have no pricing yet on these cards, so it will be awhile before I can tell you what an upgrade is going to cost. (in case anyone was about to ask.... )

[Saudade]

Hi Max,

Does that mean the same for the Mini-me? Can I get a Mini-me without the USB option and get a firewire card when it comes out?

How do I fix on the firewire card then? Can I do it myself? The place I live is kinda out of the way (some corner of the world), probably I will be ordering from online retailers.

[Max]

Originally posted by Saudade
Hi Max,

Does that mean the same for the Mini-me? Can I get a Mini-me without the USB option and get a firewire card when it comes out?

Yep.

How do I fix on the firewire card then? Can I do it myself? The place I live is kinda out of the way (some corner of the world), probably I will be ordering from online retailers.

You can do it yourself, yes. Like the USB option, it is simply a daughter card that connects easily to the main board. You will have to replace the back panel on both units as it will have a different configuration to accommodate the Firewire connectors.

[Hydropanic]

Can we expect 24 bit 96kHz with FireWire?

[chris5s]

or even 192?

As for the higher price of the FW-interface, what is the difference compared to USB? I guess there are plenty of off-the-shelf components around to convert the FW signal stream to something the Mini-DAC can digest and only after that conversion is the Apogee black magic applied. No? Can you elaborate?

Cheers
Chris

[relen]

On the face of it, USB and 1394 are just two different methods of hooking up peripherals to a computer.

But it's not as simple as that. USB is certainly best thought of as a peripheral interface, like a successor to RS232. But 1394/FW is much more sophisticated: it's a complete networking system with all the attendant benefits and pitfalls. The big problem is that data is packetised so you have to build a pseudosynchronous link from one end of the path to the other, which can make latency a challenge you have to overcome. Plus jitter is a major pain, that also has to be dealt with, due largely to packetisation. The necessary software pushes up the cost of a FW interface.

Add to that the fact that, while the components are cheaper than they were, they are way more than USB parts. Thus a FireWire interface costs more than USB to implement and to build.

This is one reason that the consumer audio industry (where I now work) is tending to go for HDMI rather than FireWire - FW was all the rage at CES the other year, and now it's gone. HDMI cheap, and it can take multiple channels of audio plus uncompressed HD digital video down one long cable. I am not seeing it in the pro field yet, but manufacturers should be looking at it. In the meantime, FW is a mature, high-quality, though more expensive interface for pro applications, which generally outperforms USB.

Best,
-_Richard Elen
(former Apogeean)

[Max]

Good to see you Richard!

[TJ Rizing]

Do I really need FW if im recording track by track with Minime. will USB be fast enough on PC???

Cheers

[Max]

Originally posted by TJ Rizing
Do I really need FW if im recording track by track with Minime. will USB be fast enough on PC???

Cheers

As long as you are not using higher sampling rates than 48K, USB will be fine.

[James Lehmann]

Originally posted by chris5s
So we hear that Firewire versions of Mini-Me and Mini-DAC will be available "before the end of the year".

This is a great bit of news - it was obvious that the consumer USB interface was limiting (no pun intended) the pro appeal of these great little products. The Mini-Me was on my shopping list already, but a Firewire version means it leapfrogs several spaces up the priority scale! Of course, first I've got to get that new Powerbook...

[chris5s]

Max,
3 months have passed since you said there would be a firewire version of the Mini-DAC. Is there any further information available in the meantime? (Like max resolution/sample rate via firewire, pricing, timeframe for official announcement/shipping, etc.)

Can't believe YOU are under NDA ;-)

Cheers
Chris

[TJ Rizing]

does it really metter using 192Kh if the CD you are burning the finnal master on is 44.1???

will 192Kh be noticable in sample based production if you are not working with acoustic instruments like chello and so on???

thanx

[chris5s]

Originally posted by TJ Rizing
does it really metter using 192Kh if the CD you are burning the finnal master on is 44.1???

will 192Kh be noticable in sample based production if you are not working with acoustic instruments like chello and so on???

thanx

TJ rizing,
Well, I don't do pure sample based productions, I'm using softsynths as well and these are capable of running at higher resolutions. Aside from that, Apogee is labeling the Mini-DAC as a 192kHz unit, but I won't be able to use that resolution with USB digital input. So I guess it is legitimate to ask whether firewire will allow me to exploit all the capabilities of the Mini-DAC. Regardless of whether it makes sense to do so with my setup. Otherwise I might as well get an M-Audio USB DAC for 99$, right?
Cheers
Chris

[Max]

Originally posted by chris5s
TJ rizing,
Well, I don't do pure sample based productions, I'm using softsynths as well and these are capable of running at higher resolutions. Aside from that, Apogee is labeling the Mini-DAC as a 192kHz unit, but I won't be able to use that resolution with USB digital input. So I guess it is legitimate to ask whether firewire will allow me to exploit all the capabilities of the Mini-DAC. Regardless of whether it makes sense to do so with my setup. Otherwise I might as well get an M-Audio USB DAC for 99$, right?
Cheers
Chris

Yes the Firewire option for the Mini-DAC will allow you to pass up to 192K to and from the Mini-DAC to the computer. Why you would want to use 192K in the first place is a different conversation altogether, but if you need it, the capability will be there.

[chris5s]

When?
How much?
Before or after X-mas? ;-)

Cheers
Chris

[DukeTogo]

I am also very interested in the status of the FireWire upgrade for the Mini-DAC. No update on this forum in a while - and the resellers I spoke to hadn't heard anything either. USB 1.x seems a little dated - even if that is just in one's head - so an updated interface would be nice.

I noticed from some internal pictures that the Mini-DAC USB daughter-card has a "Mini-Me" label on it. Could one assume that if a FW interface is released for the Mini-Me, that it will also work in the Mini-DAC?

I ask because, I see in the FAQ for the Mini-Me, that a future FireWire card should be an option. So at least there is some formal acknowledgement (other than this forum) that it is under active development. Because there is no such information under the Mini-DAC FAQ itself.

I don't mean to disparage any efforts Apogee has made towards a FireWire interface, but it's now like a year and half later. My big concern is that I might purchase the Mini-DAC now with the expectation that a FireWire interface is coming, and then perhaps Apogee internally decides to scrap the project. Sometimes these things just happen, which we should all acknowledge as reality.

The mini-me FAQ says "though we don't have a release date scheduled, it is an ongoing project." ... So... how's that FireWire project going? :-)


Just wanted to voice my interest in the FireWire card so you can count the hands in the air.

I'm seriously considering making a Mini-DAC purchase, but settling the interface upgrade question, could really make a difference to me. (And others I'm sure...)

Even just an idea of ballpark pricing would be helpful... but that's probably too much to ask at this point.

Anyway, thanks for any info, and it looks like you've got a tremendous product on your hands. Not that I can find one for love or money to actually see/try in person, all my local dealers would seem to have to order one in. :-(

[chris5s]

Originally posted by DukeTogo

Even just an idea of ballpark pricing would be helpful... but that's probably too much to ask at this point.

With "end of the year" only 4 weeks ahead, I guess it is not too much to ask at this point. Just my 2 Euro cent
Chris

[Max]

There will absolutely be a Firewire upgrade for both the Mini-Me and Mini-DAC. At this point, we are starting to ship the full production version of the X-Firewire 400. Next on the list is the AMBUS version for Trak2 and AD-8000 and then the Mini's.

[DukeTogo]

Max,

Good to hear from you, thanks for the update. Will the Firewire upgrade, allow for higher sampling rates to be used, and if so, how high? I assume this will be a FW 400 card right?

Any other changes to functionality with the use of the Firewire card over the USB card?

I don't suppose anyone's thought of a little sticker to cover the "USB" on the front? ;-)

[Max]

Sample rates will be up to 96K on the Mini-Me, 192K on the Mini-DAC.

[DukeTogo]

Max,

I believe the Mini-DAC has some bi-directional functionality associated with the USB port (and thus by extension the Firewire port). ie. when "USB" is selected, apparently the first other digital input found is sent out the USB/FW port, and one could then send a processed form of that data (or any other audio) back down the USB/FW to the Mini-DAC for digital->analog conversion and output via the analog outs.

Is the new Firewire card capable of sustaining 192K both IN and OUT at the same time? Or is there some rule like "192K in one direction" or "96K in both directions" that we should be aware of?

Just hoping to clarify.

Max's statement was "the Firewire option for the Mini-DAC will allow you to pass up to 192K to and from the Mini-DAC to the computer. " Just not sure if "to and from" meant "to and from - at the same time" or not.


Thanks!

[matucha]

I have a question about the drivers. The USB drivers for minidac made CPU 2 times slower in the CubaseSX than using M-Audio Delta drivers (with spdif). I understand USB is not exacly good audio protocol (or whatever) so I accept the strain... but I expect FireWire to be more efficient. I also expect minime > minidac > firewire > computer link will work.

good thingies those mini boxes

[davehall6162]

Hi, I also am very interested in the mini-me but im waiting for the firewire option before I buy.
One thing about this little box is that there is barely any info available on apart from a few reviews and the specs. Its sounds like a dream come true for an all in one recording solution to give an edge to project studios but, nobody seems to have one!
It is impossible to find user feedback on this interface.

I'd love to know how it sounds. Anyone know, or better yet have any samples of it in action?

Also, is it possible to drive a set of monitors from the headphone output and the monitor control level. I know it is primarily made for headphones but can this be done without impedance issues?

One might say that this is what the mini-dac is for but if you cant get both at the same time, im sure the dacs in the mini-me are better than your average sound cards dacs.

[DukeTogo]

Reviews of the Mini-DAC are hard to find, but since I've been looking at this for months, I have some to share:

"Small but Serious"
http://www.digitalprosound.com/artic...e.jsp?id=21227

On head-fi.org, User "tiberian" and "jpelg" each have a Mini-DAC. Look for their posts.

Over on Audiogon, user "rsbeck" has one and really likes it. eg.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...7221&read&3&4&


More links:
http://www.creativesynth.com/BLOG/C1...0/E1608758100/
http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_apogeeminime_minidac/
http://www.onhifi.com/product/apogee_mini_dac.htm



Apogee can cut me a cheque to the following address for the free promotion. ;-)

[DukeTogo]

Ah sorry I see you were more interested in the Mini-*ME* ... anyway, some of those URL's discuss both the Mini-Me & Mini-DAC.

And any review of any of the Mini units are good to read, because they all share the same chassis, power-supply (afaik) etc, so there is some commonality. The USB and Firewire bridgeboards seem to be exactly the same in the Mini-series also.