ITB mixes too "clean" - Do you add distortion to Drums and Percussion tracks ITB ?

[Rockman]

Hey guys,

Simple question. When mixing ITB (without any outboard gear), my pop/rock mixes tend to sound too clean when compared to commercial CDs. It's hard to put my finger on what it is exactly... But maybe mixing on an SSL adds that "almost on the verge of distorting" aggressive sound, which makes all the difference.. and is lacking in ITB mixes.

So I was wondering.. Do you guys ever run your drums and percussion tracks (shakers, tamb, etc) through a distortion plug-in? Is that a good idea? And if you do, do you process the actual tracks? or do you do parallel processing?

Thanks for any advice.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Hey guys,

Simple question. When mixing ITB (without any outboard gear), my pop/rock mixes tend to sound too clean when compared to commercial CDs. It's hard to put my finger on what it is exactly... But maybe mixing on an SSL adds that "almost on the verge of distorting" aggressive sound, which makes all the difference.. and is lacking in ITB mixes.

The SSL does give you a little "edge" on the sonics but what you are really hearing is the mixers interpretation & vision for that song. And that's usually a combination of different tools not just the SSL. It could be different compressors and EQ's layered together to get a certain effect.

Originally Posted by Rockman

So I was wondering.. Do you guys ever run your drums and percussion tracks (shakers, tamb, etc) through a distortion plug-in? Is that a good idea? And if you do, do you process the actual tracks? or do you do parallel processing?

Thanks for any advice.

I would say if you are working ITB its worth it to try to add distortion(its pretty easy to take off if you don't like it).

Actual tracks or parallel?

I am big proponent of layering things on the parallels and making the actual tracks the best they can be. Its easier to control the effects this way. Unless the actual track needs and edge and then its all gloves off.

[drBill]

Check out Massey Tapehead and Cranesong Phoenix plug-ins.

[DeathMonkey]

I picked up a few tips here on GS for roughing up tracks to get a little more aggression on em. I like to dupe my drum loops especially and run them through a Sansamp plug and put them behind the original. I heard a track recently where they ran a send to a light Sansamp preset then into a heavy plate reverb and ran that fairly far back in the mix, and it sounded pretty neat. Added some depth and edge without cluttering up the detail of the part.

Be careful, tho - I went a little bonkers on a track where I wanted that old Stooges/VU feel and ended up with a ton of weird crossing distortions. I went back through and took about half the plugs out and ended up with a much better mix. So be judicious, maybe just add grind to a few key tracks to get that aggro flava?

[Stiff]

Yea, all the time, either on a drum sub or on individual or on both. Analog Channel or Digidesign Reel Tape Saturator. For rock type of stuff I usually go with parallel compression with helps to achieve a more aggressive sound as well...

[Rockman]

Thanks for the replies guys. I wish I could use the Mc DSP plugs, etc. I'm running Pro Tools 5.1 on OS 9. I don't think they're compatible. So I think I'm limited to Amp Farm, for the time being.

[Andreas G]

I've had good results with DUY Valve and DUY Tape plug ins.

[DeathMonkey]

Originally Posted by Rockman

So I think I'm limited to Amp Farm, for the time being.

One of my favorite Sansamp plugs for vocals and drums is a SRV sim - so maybe try something like a Vibroverb or Deluxe program? I think the Bassman sims may be a bit dark, maybe you could also try a light JTM45 type amp sim? I'd be interested in hearing how it works :)

[not_so_new]

Distorting tracks ITB? Yep, all the time... I guess I can't say on EVERY mix but I also can't tell you when the last time was that I didn't do this for a rock mix.

Also it's not just ITB either, I do it with digital and analog, ITB or hybrid, drums, percussion, vocals, bass almost anything. I do agree with Thrill, most of the time it is a parallel type of thing. A little goes a long way but use the distorted track tucked under the main sound and things tend to jump out at ya.

My favorite trick as of late has been to take a stereo drum sub and slam it through my Chandler TG-2, inputs CRANKED and outputs way down. The TG-2 distorts in a really really cool way for drums. Blend that under the rest of the drum tracks and it adds some excitement to them without having to make them louder in the mix.

[yrlk]

Generally, it seems like you've gotta find the sound you want based on the mic, mic placement, and preamp. Making huge adjustments after that means you didn't get what you wanted to begin with. *Here's a prime example: floor toms. If you want the beef, you've gotta aim down towards the side of the drum. If you want more of the attack, you aim toward the middle. Of course, more attack means more highs and more beef means more lows... typically, anyway.

However, if you're doing the best you can with what you've got and still aren't happy, for me... the trick is generally hitting a hardware or software compressor good and hard. It can give it punch, of course, but more importantly - in your case, from the sound of it - is that hitting a compressor hard tends to take off some of the high, super clean sheen, if you know what I mean. So try that, maybe. Also... make sure your overheads aren't too loud... or try this trick... put the overheads through a lot of verb (more wet vs. dry) to give it more of a room, broken up sound.

B

[blaugruen7]

i am testing right now ohmicide from ohmforce.
it can be subtle, but its really fun totally melting things with it.
http://www.ohmforce.com/ViewProduct.do?p=Ohmicide

[Oroz]

A lot info. about adding distortion to tracks here: SansAmp Questions

[Rockman]

Thanks for all the helpful tips guys.

I also just found out that Phoenix is compatible with PT Mix Plus on OS 9. That's good news for me... although now, I have to come up with the money to buy the thing...

[drBill]

Are you sure Massey Tapehead won't work with OS9? THe massey stuff is very inexpensive and works awesome!!

[DSMrehearsal]

forget spending money, sounds like you have time to work on these tracks. I'm assuming you have a guitar amp???, run your tracks out through your amp ..... one .......at ....a ...... time.......it takes a while, but distort each sound to the level/tone you want,,,,, and COMMIT to that sound .....people bitch about AD/DA conversion affecting the sound, **** it . procces and enjoy,

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by yrlk

Generally, it seems like you've gotta find the sound you want based on the mic, mic placement, and preamp. Making huge adjustments after that means you didn't get what you wanted to begin with.

You are kidding right? Sounds like you have been reading too many posts on the internet.



So a good mix engineer will never use and EQ on a pre-recorded track? Or a good mix engineer will never use a compressor..... or a reverb off of tape in a mix? They will capture everything with mic position and preamp choice and never augment any sounds?



There are 1000 and 1 things that a good mix engineer will do to enhance a track even if the "best" placement and the "best" mic was used hen tracking. Distortion is one of these enhancements that can help a track stand up and take notice. Saying that it all has to happen before it hits tape is very short sighted.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

You are kidding right? Sounds like you have been reading too many posts on the internet.

So a good mix engineer will never use and EQ on a pre-recorded track? Or a good mix engineer will never use a compressor.....

And immediately after saying that, the poster being criticized wrote about using compressors in a mix... (maybe they edited it?)

[Rockman]

Thanks for the tip. I'll check out the Massey stuff as well. I'm new to these tape emulation plugs... so I guess I (wrongly) assumed that they were relatively new plugs, and wouldn't be compatible with the older Mix Plus systems. I'm glad I was wrong.

[drundall]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Thanks for the replies guys. I wish I could use the Mc DSP plugs, etc. I'm running Pro Tools 5.1 on OS 9. I don't think they're compatible. So I think I'm limited to Amp Farm, for the time being.

Yeah, we have the plugins and you have the stability.

I remember OS9. Rock solid.

Not very pretty though.

Sometimes Sansamp can be cool on drums, if you have that.

[Pr.tiouz]

then ones i use the most based on how they sound are predhatom (ohmforce) and camel phat (camel audio) wich i use even for mastering (the tube button 1 to 5%), and one secret weapon is Reverence from audio damage, try pushing the in fader, add a very very little amount of verb for the air and tell me if you don't like what you ear (like wow this must be analog tape !!!!) much better than Duy tape IMO.

[beyarecords]

Rockman,

you may find 'Mix it like a record' by Charles Dye of interest in this respect.

He discusses the issue of saturation/distortion within the digital realm and how to achieve a similar effect using plugins like Analog Channel (McDSP), Tape (DUY) and Trash (iZotope).

There are a number of other tips, which have also been mentioned here, which he runs through such as parallel compression.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

So a good mix engineer will never use and EQ on a pre-recorded track? Or a good mix engineer will never use a compressor..... or a reverb off of tape in a mix? They will capture everything with mic position and preamp choice and never augment any sounds?



.

No...a good liar says that

Its always some self aggrandizing beacon of light in the mixing world that says he uses nothing.

The idea being..Im so great I dont need anything to make a mix sound good

[cortisol]

Some things sound great through distortion and some things need dimensions added to them in a more subtle way on parallel chanels mixed way under.

I think tracking to digital and then mixing ITB really shows things up to be that bit more clinical sounding.

I think it is possible to track in a way that doesn't highlight the clinical presentation. Valve chanels and tape emulation are great for adding the harmonics and warmth and softened focus on the sound.

I very much enjoy adding some distortion to tamborine.

Peace,
cortisol

[RusRant]

My favs are PSP Vintage Warmer or the free Blockfish. They work for me in this respect.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Absolute

No...a good liar says that

Its always some self aggrandizing beacon of light in the mixing world that says he uses nothing.

The idea being..Im so great I dont need anything to make a mix sound good

LOL

Exactly....