modern R&B drum sound

[chb]

guess ?uestlove playing and russell elevado mixing might help.
jokin aside if someone has technical details of how that record was done in electric lady, 'd be much appreciated...

[1nation]

I know someone out there know's how to get these sounds out of a kit.

If someone doesn't chime in soon I'll start a bunch of "Which is better" threads.

[chb]

i know ahmir used to endorse yamaha maple custom drums and played on a 26'' kick and a 3 1/2'' david garibaldi signature piccolo, guess the room at electric lady sounds pretty good and russell is a top notch mixer.
i don't know what pres/eqs/comps they used, but all of this doesn't really matter if your room sounds like shit and the player's not tight.

heard a few tracks of brian mcknight's latest, it was all programmed, that's a very different story then

[Teacher]

isn't the modern RnB drum sound usually electronic/sample not live?

[tunesmith]

I actually have it on good authority that D'Angelo's Voodoo record was the product of some serious soul selling. Either that or he's God's favorite human being.

That album is sick sick sick. It's the only CD i've worn through and bought again. I hear new layers in the mix EVERY single time I listen.

Come to think of it, scratch the part about being from God. It must be from the devil because of the dirty dirty things I want to do after I hear it.

I am pretty sure I am a parent of a 7 month old because of that record. Of course, then we are forced to reconsile that fact with the above, since she (my daughter) is the most delightful of all things. So perhaps Voodoo is God masquerading as the Devil...

Anyways, it's good. It's very good. And I have no idea how they did it.

Tunes.

[1nation]

Originally posted by Teacher
isn't the modern RnB drum sound usually electronic/sample not live?

Most of the radio stuff is. However, ?estlove started a new vibe a couple years back. Live drums that have the impact of programmed drums.

My drummer is phenomenal, (he's actually done a couple tours with ?est, my room's cool (well, it is what it is). His drums are great and they sound awesome in the room.

We're working on some adult contemporary pop type of stuff right now and getting great results, but I want some tips to getting a voodooish stick sound... I'm nowhere close right now.

I have a couple songs that will sound great with that sort of thing. My drummers on tour right now but when he gets back next week I want to get started and it would be helpful if I had some direction. It's tough experimenting for hours with mics and positioning... He's got a short attention span.


Some of the Brian McKnight songs are sequenced... The better ones are not. Have another listen.

[Russell Elevado]

Hello Paul,

Russ Elevado here.
This looks like an old thread, but maybe you'll get it.
Good mics and pre's are a start, then a great drummer like ?uest Love is always a huge part of the way the sound ends up. He tunes his drums like no one else i've seen.

Most of the drums we tracked for Voodoo were tracked on a Focusrite console.

Well if get this trhead, hit me with a reply.

All the best,

Russ

[Surfkat]

I am doing a modern R&B/eclectic project now with a bunch of real players from Phille, a city that knows R&B, modern & classic. One drummer brought in a snare with wooden hoops. You can't believe how fat the stick sound was with those wooden hoops. Maybe that's what you heard?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by fluxoneous

Hello Paul,

Russ Elevado here.
This looks like an old thread, but maybe you'll get it.
Good mics and pre's are a start, then a great drummer like ?uest Love is always a huge part of the way the sound ends up. He tunes his drums like no one else i've seen.

Most of the drums we tracked for Voodoo were tracked on a Focusrite console.

Well if get this trhead, hit me with a reply.

All the best,

Russ

Welcome to GS, Russ...

Any info you could provide us on how the drums on "Untitled (How Does it Feel)" were tracked/ mixed (mics, compression, etc) is greatly appreciated.. I've always thought they had a great sound, and would love any info.

[Steamy Williams]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Welcome to GS, Russ...

Any info you could provide us on how the drums on "Untitled (How Does it Feel)" were tracked/ mixed (mics, compression, etc) is greatly appreciated.. I've always thought they had a great sound, and would love any info.

Ditto!

[chb]

thank you for taking your time to post here!
your work is inspirational to say the least and had me reopening the same mixing session 8 times continuing tweaking...

Originally Posted by fluxoneous

Hello Paul,

Russ Elevado here.
This looks like an old thread, but maybe you'll get it.
Good mics and pre's are a start, then a great drummer like ?uest Love is always a huge part of the way the sound ends up. He tunes his drums like no one else i've seen.

Most of the drums we tracked for Voodoo were tracked on a Focusrite console.

Well if get this trhead, hit me with a reply.

All the best,

Russ

[Russell Elevado]

Good morning,

It's really nice to know people are trying to record real drums these days.
It's no real secret as far as the mics i used for the snare. I used an SM57 and an AKG 451. I would alternate them from top to bottom depending on the snare.
You should always check your phase between the 2 mics and 80% of the time they will be out of phase from each other.

Another part of the overall sound comes from the overhead and other mics that i put around the kit that captures the sound as a whole. So i would put an old ribbon in front, a tube 47 overhead and maybe another ribbon or condesor behind the kit. And all this i'll combine together with some nice compression to create the overall sound.

And as i said in my 1st reply, i tracked 90% of the drums (as well as the rest of the band) on a Focusrite console which was custom built for Electric Lady Studios. And i also had some Neve 1081's to run through as well. There were only 3 or 4 of thsoe consoles ever built. It had amazing sounding EQ's and pre's.
I didn't EQ anything to tape, just mic placement and the pre's. It's worth the investment to buy some high quality pre's. Don't go for the "pro-sumer" shit.
Oh and by the way, all of it was tracked to 2" analog tape using Studer A800's.

Then there's the tuning. I'm not exactly sure which snare we used for "Untitled" (this song was specificallly asked about) as we had around 5 to 7 snares we would select from during the recordings. But ?uestlove would tighten up those snare pretty high and we'd just keep tweaking until we had what we wanted. and that snare sound is pretty original to ?uestlove because i've never heard that sound from anyone else before.

I'll be back with more stuff, specifically the use of tape. Analog is the key!
Please try and be general when asking questions because it could get pretty exhausting trying to be specific and trying to remember exact details. Remember i tracked most of the basic tracks for the voodoo album in 1997 and 1998.
I will try and get to everyone's questions within reason.

All the best,

Russ

[Albro Swift]

Hi Russ,

Thanks so much for posting! A couple more questions, if you have the time...

What about the kick sound, did you close mic it? Is it all from that ribbon in front? As far as the tape goes, did you track at 30 ips?

And I know you want to keep it general, but could you talk a little about the song "Africa", especially the drum sounds -- that low tom/kick sound is so freakin' cool!

Also, thanks so much for your work on "Game Theory" -- I've probably listened to that CD ten times in the past two days...

Take Care,
Josh Evans

[Russell Elevado]

Hello Josh,

Yes i close mic'd the kick. But i didnt usually get inside very much.
I dont like a kick that has too much of a clicky attack. I like it to be more of a round attack. Therefore i tried to stay just outside the kick. I would use 2 mics and would usually be a combination of either: RE20, U87, D12, and Fet47. Most of the time we used a vintage 26" kick. I dont remember the make though.

It was definitely a combination of the 2 mics at the kick and the ribbon in front.
Placement is a big contributor. And always check your phasing between your mics.

And yes, i tracked at 30 IPS.

Regarding Africa: I think the 421 is one of the best tom mics there is. But on the floor tom i will often use an RE20. That sound comes from the compression i used. Again, i don't remember exact details on that, though I definitely used a Fiarchild 670 on a lot of the mixes for that album. It definitely had the bottom on it when i tracked it so all i had to do was enhance it with compression.

Hope this helps...

Russ Elevado

[Steamy Williams]

Great to have you here, Russ!

Do you mic the hi-hat often, if at all, and was this something you did on the recording of Voodoo? If so, what mics do favour for this task?

What sort of tracks might you have run through the 1081's (you don't have to be too specific, I'm just curious)?

Are there any interesting stories that you would care to tell us about the Voodoo recording sessions - anything at all?

Cheers.

[Albro Swift]

Russ,

Thanks so much for answering our questions -- you may have opened pandora's box though!

It's interesting to learn about albums like Voodoo because so much of the music press and internet chatter is so rock focused...

Thanks again,
Josh

[Russell Elevado]

hello,

It's nice to be here, thanks.

On hi hats i usually go for a (vintage) km84 and sometimes a 421.
And sometimes i wouldnt use the hat mic in the final mix as there might be plenty coming from the room mics.

I would run the kick mics or the room mics and bass through the 1081's.
I'll think of a story and post it later on.

Cheers,

Russ

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To all,

Thanks for all the interest. It's quite flattering to me to know people are still referencing Voodoo for drum sounds. I get a lot of compliments on that recording to this day. I was lucky to meet D'Angelo as his music is a perfect vehicle for my (old school) style of engineering and production. I knew that Voodoo was my chance to let people know that the art of engineering is still a valid art form and can be attained. I continue to use tape for recording and mixdown. I never use plug-ins (more on that later) and I have an extensive collection of vintage gear that is priceless to me.

Keep the faith alive.

All the best,

[Steamy Williams]

That's great info, Russ!

Oh boy, I can think of all sorts of questions to ask but I'll try to restrain myself.

So just these two... What do you think of modern outboard, like the Distressor for instance, which has become a bit of a modern studio standard?

Also, if you don't use plug-ins, does that mean you also tend to avoid digital reverbs, be they algorithmic or convolution?

Obviously a DSP process is the same regardless of whether it is in the form of a dedicated piece of hardware, a plug-in, or a plug-in running on a dedicated piece of hardware (ala TC PowerCore), so it makes no difference to eschew plug-ins in favour of hardware in this case. Unless, of course, you prefer vintage digital reverbs that used quite a different implementation of DSP from that of today, with gate array processors and the like (ala the AMS RMX16).

Personally, I would definitely prefer to use plates and echo chambers a lot of the time, if they weren't so impractical to own.

[Bob Olhsson]

I'd sooner find a great drum sound with a unique character than trying for any vintage or modern cliche.

[Steamy Williams]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'd sooner find a great drum sound with a unique character than trying for any vintage or modern cliche.

I can appreciate why you would feel that way Bob, but you have the satisfaction of having been there and done that before they were a cliche.

[Russell Elevado]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'd sooner find a great drum sound with a unique character than trying for any vintage or modern cliche.

No worries Bob. I've been a fan of your Motown recordings. But you should listen to my work with artists like "The Roots", "Roy Hargrove- the RH Factor" or "Erykah Badu".

All the best

[Russell Elevado]

Originally Posted by Steamy Williams

That's great info, Russ!

So just these two... What do you think of modern outboard, like the Distressor for instance, which has become a bit of a modern studio standard?

Also, if you don't use plug-ins, does that mean you also tend to avoid digital reverbs, be they algorithmic or convolution?

Personally, I would definitely prefer to use plates and echo chambers a lot of the time, if they weren't so impractical to own.

Hey Steamy,

Regarding modern outboard:
As far as the Distressor goes, I don't favor the sound too much. I like some of the stuff coming out these days. Like the Chandler EMI limiter is really nice. The Mooger pedals are sweet too. I own some newer gear, but for the stuff that i do, i just prefer the sound of the older gear. The only problem can be the maintenance.

I started in 1987 and back then the coolest toys on the block was a Lexicon 480L and the AMS DMX/RMX. And since then there hasn't been any giant leaps in the reverb world except for the Lexicon 960L, Sony DRE-777 and TC Electronics M5000. And i like the way the 480L or even the 224XL sounds and i can tweak it enough to sound natural to me. But i've had the luxury of having access to EMT plates which is what i prefer. But when i don't have access to a plate i use the 960 or 480L. Or if I'm in a studio with a good live room, I'll use the studio as a live chamber.

I'm not completely against plug-ins some of them are cool, like the Lo Fi or sound replacer. But i don't think you can compare a real 1176LN or better yet a Fairchild 670 to the plug-in version. There is just no competition.

Best

[chb]

hey russ -
i have often wondered how this record was created initially. was the recording process based on traditional songwriting? i have read somewhere that you recorded a bunch [that must have been hellofabunch] of jams and then the mixing process turned out to be so painstakingly slow that everyone bailed out and left you and d cutting and pasting parts together - any truth in this?
chris

[Russell Elevado]

Originally Posted by chb

hey russ -
i have often wondered how this record was created initially. was the recording process based on traditional songwriting? i have read somewhere that you recorded a bunch [that must have been hellofabunch] of jams and then the mixing process turned out to be so painstakingly slow that everyone bailed out and left you and d cutting and pasting parts together - any truth in this?
chris

hey chris,
no truth to that rumor at all. there was some pre-production involved with D writing a bunch of songs and laying down a demo version of it. And the players would play the song over together with D for a live take. Other songs came out of jams that sparked idea's and they formed an arrangement, etc. But there was definite songs from the beginning. And there were only 4 or 5 instances that i remember copying/pasting anything on the album. D'Angelo would sing all the parts down, rather than copying them and putting them in places. 95% of the chorses you hear are sing every time.

best

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by fluxoneous

hey chris,
no truth to that rumor at all. there was some pre-production involved with D writing a bunch of songs and laying down a demo version of it. And the players would play the song over together with D for a live take. Other songs came out of jams that sparked idea's and they formed an arrangement, etc. But there was definite songs from the beginning. And there were only 4 or 5 instances that i remember copying/pasting anything on the album. D'Angelo would sing all the parts down, rather than copying them and putting them in places. 95% of the chorses you hear are sing every time.

best

WOW........

[paultools]

and welcome!

I know this thread is about the drum sound, but the BASS on that album is borderline infrasound! I don't know how you did it!
thumbsup

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by fluxoneous

...you should listen to my work with artists like "The Roots", "Roy Hargrove- the RH Factor" or "Erykah Badu".

I have and it's absolutely wonderful!

I just like to always encourage creativity and original thinking.

[Threshold]

808, 909, & SP12, or 1200, with a taste of ethnic, & latin percussion instruments(for todays Hot 100 R&B). The more things change the more they stay the same for everything else R&B(D' Angelo is somewhere else not like what's heard on the radio these days though). Also alot of Roland drum brain, & rack module drums. For D' Angelo I'd heard he used he ASR 10 for some things in his earlier work. Where the samples came from is anybody's guess. Maybe 'fluxoneous' can elaborate there as well.

[Russell Elevado]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I have and it's absolutely wonderful!

I just like to always encourage creativity and original thinking.

Yes , I agree, imagination and trying new things are key. I'm still finding new ways to twist sounds around and not just drums. But drums are fun to play around with.
?uestlove has been my main inspiration for finding new ways to process drums. He's been the one that's allowed me to experiment with no boundaries or judgements.

BTW, how old were you when you were recording for Motown?