High End adat machines

[Mark107]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

And guess what? Both the blackface adat and M20 adat use the exact same s-video tape, yet the M20 sounds much better.

Explain that.

The M20 had better convertors. Did you think there was another reason?

Wow.

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by Mark107

The M20 had better convertors. Did you think there was another reason?

Wow.

??

Did you understand my response in the context of his confusion? Or are you just confused?

Or am I just confused at the meaning of your post?

Maybe you meant to respond to sae grad on this....(yet he never answered my post you quoted)....

[Mark107]

You are correct, I was responding to him.

[Mark107]

Since we are talking about "high-end" adats, I can shed some light on this.

In addition to owning a 2" machine for the past 17 years, I also went through 40 or 50 adats throughout the 90's. Seven of them were M20s. Like Lynn said, you needed to own at least one extra if you planned on using them on any given day. At the end of a year, I would sell the current batch, and buy new ones. Own an adat without a warranty? No thanks.

On my last round of four XTs, within four months the transports had failed on two of them, and the main board had failed on two of them. That was even worse than usual, so I called Alesis and complained. They asked me what I wanted them to do. I said I thought they should sell me some M20s real cheap, because after being in adat hell for several years, I deserved them. A bit to my surprise they called me back the next day and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Within a week I received four machines, the new remote, and the meter bridge. Pretty much from day 1, they had none of the mechanical problems of the other adats. However, the software hardly worked at all. Which of course was the exact opposite of the XTs.

What I didn't know was they I had volunteered to be in the beta program. For real. Over the next year and a half, I went through more software versions than I can remember. By the time it was done, they worked great, but it was too late for the market place. But like I said, they were everything the xt's (and prior) weren't.

For example, with the regular adats, they seemed to need cleaning all the time in order for them to work correctly. During the 2-3 years I ran the M20s, I never cleaned a single one of them even once. Tapes recorded on the M20s ALWAYS played back fine. Tapes that were fussy on the older ones were less fussy on the M20, thereby proving that the M20 wrote better data. The transports locked way faster, audio from all machines came on at the same time, the wind speed was more like a 2" machine, etc. Separate input buttons, AES/EBU, XLR connectors, timecode, etc. Lots of pro features.

They were a huge improvement. Fortunately for Alesis, they sold very few of them early on, because they flat-out didn't work. Had these sold early on, they would have been in BIG trouble! Their problem was that they DIDN'T KNOW that they didn't work. That was my job. For example, they didn't know that loading in saved auto-locate data would render the machine unable to lock to timecode. Crazy stuff like that.

The convertors were better by several magnitude. Even after I stopped running tape in them, I had three of them hooked up to a 2408 with lightpipe. The convertors were 24-bit, even though the machine itself wasn't.

All that said, I am very happy to be out of adat hell. PTHD suits me fine. And I still have my 2" of course. But if you are talking "high-end" adat, that would be the M20.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Sae_grad

everyone hurt my feelings, so i didnt buy them!!! lol

then you are both wise and a quick learner!

[thenoodle]

......."everyone hurt my feelings, so i didnt buy them!!! lol

The power of our massive, collective negativity has triumphed yet again! Long live Gearslutz !!!

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by narcoman

then you are both wise and a quick learner!

Apparently the Gearslutz curriculum has trumped SAE's attempt (the school that is) on this matter, and a free course at that.

Considering the value of gearslutz? Extensive archives at the touch of a search button and many top engineers/producers as guest moderators, plus much more....all friggin free and practically uncensored.

Schools like SAE, full sail, etc., should be shaking in their power supplies with forums like Gearslutz, psw, tape-op, etc. around. Especially considering that you could buy an fully equipped commercially viable studio (equip) with the tuition they charge.

Next course: Analog mixing through a digital console, myth or reality?

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by Mark107

The convertors were better by several magnitude. Even after I stopped running tape in them, I had three of them hooked up to a 2408 with lightpipe. The convertors were 24-bit, even though the machine itself wasn't.

Heh, nice! So you're saying the converters passed 24-bit 8-channel through to the lightpipe out unless you recorded to tape? Or simply that the converters were specced for 24 bit, but the machine threw away the bottom 4 bits and gave you 20?

[esaias]

Maybe I need to save my Mackie 24-8 and 3x Fostex RD-8 machnies and pull them out of the closet in 2025 and start selling "that definitive 90's demo sound".

But hey, I think these RD-8's have kind of similar sound if you had thrown your stuff into some 90's sampler. Which is not a bad thing!

-Tomi

[drundall]

There is nothing high end about having to copy all your tapes in triplicate because they keep getting eaten.

OMG dude, get a laptop and an interface. This is 2007. If you want vintage get a tape machine. No backups but tons of maintanence.

This is pure insanity.

[phoketztight]

A Friend Of Mine Gave Me One...Lord Knows Why I Didnt Leave That Thing With Him..Sitting In My Closet Like A D*mn Cynderblock

[Fleaman]

Here's what many don't realize (or remember): ADAT's started the whole home recording wave and move away from commercial studios. At the time ('91?), the price and quality was unprecedented....they started a revolution.

Times have changed of course (super cheap hard drives), yet in the early '90's ADAT's were all the rage and ruled project studios, leading to commercial studios getting them, etc. DA88's ruled post production (since smpte was striped to tape). The attitude was much different towards them back then...many comparing them to the troublesome $100,000+ Mitsubishi digital multitracks (or DASH), etc.....it was quite an achievement.

But anyway, that's old news now

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

Here's what many don't realize (or remember): ADAT's started the whole home recording wave and move away from commercial studios. At the time ('91?), the price and quality was unprecedented....they started a revolution.

Times have changed of course (super cheap hard drives), yet in the early '90's ADAT's were all the rage and ruled project studios, leading to commercial studios getting them, etc. DA88's ruled post production (since smpte was striped to tape). The attitude was much different towards them back then...many comparing them to the troublesome $100,000+ Mitsubishi digital multitracks (or DASH), etc.....it was quite an achievement.

But anyway, that's old news now

I agree but at the same time, I had my Tascam MSR16 and was getting better sounding recordings out of it so was very happy I didn't "upgrade" like many people I know did.

[Duardo]

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I was directed to it by a link in another thread and couldn't resist commenting...

ADATs and DA-88's are probably MORE unreliable than a MCI deck

I wouldn't lump ADAT and DTRS machines into the same category...other than the fact that they were both modular digital mulitrack machines they had little in common...and one of the biggest differences was that the DTRS machines were, in fact, quite reliable, which is why they took off in Hollywood.

out of all the MDMs i don't remember which sounded the best. the Best ADAT was the Blackface ADAT by Alesis. Tascam had the DA98HR, i'm sure the studer is good.

It's certainly a subjective thing, but I don't think you'd find many people who agreed that the blackface ADAT machines were the best...they were the first generation and I'd say were surpassed sonically by every subsequent ADAT machine as well as the various flavors of DTRS machines. I'd guess that most would agree that the better-sounding machines were the later 20-bit ADAT machines (like the M20 and the Studer machine) or the 24-bit Tascam models (they're even still making them).

Tapes recorded on the M20s ALWAYS played back fine. Tapes that were fussy on the older ones were less fussy on the M20, thereby proving that the M20 wrote better data. The transports locked way faster, audio from all machines came on at the same time, the wind speed was more like a 2" machine, etc.

As I understand it that was because the M20 actually used a professional video transport rather than a cheap consumer one running four times as fast as it was supposed to. Their hope was to get a piece of the post production market that Tascam owned but it didn't happen, mainly because the ADAT tapes still could only hold forty minutes of audio and it was really too late anyhow.

[anteupaudio]

This is really funny... We get at least 3 calls a year (at my studio) asking if we have ADAT machines because they want that "warm tape sound". Next thing you know, we'll be mixing to 8 track cartridges... Tape doesn't always = analog guys!

01010101010101010101

Originally Posted by Sae_grad

well the main reason I posted this is because , i can get 3 alesis xt machine practically new for under 600. and i like the fact im tracking to tape. I think the tape gives it a better sound , than tracking to digital, its different. I am curious really how the adat machines worked. I know its digital tape and everyone complained how the converters werent that good. Were there many records done with adat, like with the studer or the alesis?????

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by Duardo

I wouldn't lump ADAT and DTRS machines into the same category...other than the fact that they were both modular digital mulitrack machines they had little in common...and one of the biggest differences was that the DTRS machines were, in fact, quite reliable, which is why they took off in Hollywood.
.

Not true. The reason the DA88's succeeded in the post production field was because smpte was stripped onto the tape where as ADAT's you needed a BRC and notes to set the smpte code and drop frame, etc.

W/O smpte on the ADAT tapes it made it confusing and difficult to deal with in post-production...compared to the Tascams. It didn't hurt that the Tascam tapes were smaller too, especially when dealing with a lot of tapes. With DTRS you just dropped the tape into the machine and the smpte came up, essential in post-production. This was why Alesis implemented smpte striping direct to tape in the M20, no BRC or other external smpte clock needed....yet it was too late for that market and probably the last nail in the coffin for Alesis.

[ddageek]

The M20/V8 was the high-end adat and what the aat should have been from day one!
The original ADat Black face was based on a POS discontinued JVC SVHS transport that was functional at best at regular speed! JVC had tons of these tramsports when good old Alesis came calling with the idea For the ADAT others had come xalling with simialr Ideas but Akesis times it right JVC said sure we will licence you for this transport!
The M20 was based on a Panisonic AGds series ""pro" (if you considered SVHS pro) editing decks transport! It ran much smoother synced well and the converters sounded pretty good at the time! However Panasonic couldn't deliver the AGDS Decks in a timely mannner so I once asked Alesis how they thought they would ever get enough transports ther was no reply!

The ADAT was too the late 80s early 90 what the Digideign 002/003 is today a Consumer multitrack that crept into the pro market because it was so much cheaper than the real thing! Those who tried to use them as pro machines were always crying yet hey look what that big old sony DASH Machine costs!
The Thing about aadat and DA88 based machines that alot of poeple never understood was that a major part of the tape transport was the cassette its self and it was never concived to run at these speeds not to mention the tape its self! Cleaning one of these with a cleaner tape was equivalant to placeing a hand granade inside yet 90% of the owners did so (why not just sand paper the heads)!

But yeah the M20/V8 were the highend ADAT finding M20 albums could be hard because most ended up in video houses because they would actually sync up!

[aarowsmith]

Yea' ADAT is so horrible that most machines still work today is somewhat testimony to their build quality. You think ?

Yes I know this thread is old and dead, but I still use ADAT tape based machines, and why?

ADAT's have the physical input/outputs connections for recording anything and is a hell of allot cheaper today than using anything else, that comes even close in features to track demo songs, drums or whatever from room to room live recording and both fast setup time.

I find ADAT's easier to use and have more real world connections for live recording than any of the new 8 track little plastic SD media recorders that compress the sound and are way more money than ADAT tape based machines that do not compress the sound, another words using no digital compression or lossy recording formats.

SVHS ADAT machines have eight 1/4" connecters ins/outs, where do you get that for the same money? ADAT's have both +4 and -10 db recording ins/outs level possibilities built in, unlike the more expensive computer sound cards that usaully just have two ins and maybe 8 outs maybe and at -10 db only. With ADAT you can use both -10 and +4 db level ins/outs at the same time.

Plus you can slow or tune down the tempo or speed up or tune up the tempo to tune to a off key instrument, or adjust tempos. Also you can delay tracks for vocal doubling effects, drum timing etc.
And you don't have to have a computer with ADAT, everything you need to record with is there already, except mics and preamps and your talent. And a BRC is highly recommended too.

I find SVHS ADAT machines reliable even today, because I find many machines now used with low hours still in great shape with allot of life left in them. I do all my own up keep and servicing to them from time to time. I save allot of money that way, and I assure the ADAT machines will work smoothly for me and they always do.

People that do have problems with ADAT tape machines need to have their machines serviced by an excellent caring technician, which is you. But maybe you can find a good tech, but learn how to service them yourself, and do it right correctly by contacting me, and or learn it by Google.

As far as people claiming long ass rewind times and fast forward times on ADAT machines, it is not that bad, I feel ADAT tapes are allot faster than reel to reel and sympte sync up times. I know People today don't have time to scratch their but, pet their cat and record at the same time.

With ADAT tape, I just record a mono scratch track if I want to use just one ADAT machine to record more than 8 tracks to for faster tape response time, and then on final mixdown playback only I can use two ADAT machines in sync for more than 8 tracks. That way it saves me allot of head wear and sync up time while I am recording more than 8 tracks using just one machine. Unless you record more than 8 tracks live, this will save allot of time and wear on your ADAT tape machines.

I never use more that 24 ADAT tape tracks, three ADAT tape machines for mixdown is rarely used live 24 tracks at one time, any more than that, well it gets into a rats mess of cables and complexity and maintenance. You might as well at that level of pro use, just buy and use the Alesis HD24 hard drive machine. Keep your older 8 track ADAT machines for studio live drum tracking and extra ADAT inputs/outputs for your sound card.

I personally do not like computer DAW's, they seem to slow/restrict/distract my creative flow in recording my linear music tracks I want to get down fast and recorded already. I love ADAT tape machines for getting musical song ideas down fast.

All with out the computer distractions of a million ways I can get lost in computer software, soft synths, grandma's email and etc. Too many choices like Las Vegas', I just want to get my musical ideas down fast to tape or ADAT, then play ADAT digitally back into my sound card through my ADAT light pipe to master back up and edit my ADAT recordings.

If I want to have more editing choices and mix mastering choices then I use the computer definately and with out hesitation. But you can mix down to analog with out using a computer at all. I think analog summing ADAT mixing sounds better than in the computer DAW box digital mixing.

You can not find a less expensive way now to add more recording and ADAT connections to your home studio and give your recession beaten wallet a a break, you just get allot more for your recording money using ADAT and its many interfaces.

How many people listen to older recordings and say they love the way it sounds? It's how you use the recording gear you have with out getting in debt.

I think people can still use ADAT tape machines, and get allot of use out of it.

It helps to learn to play your instruments in a linear fashion, playing it all the way through the song rather than just having Pro Tools cutting, pasting and looping static dead sounding music. But if you like that sound ??? ADAT tape machines can help you to play your instrument all the way through your song, great for live practice sessions'.

Out of all the ADAT machines I have used, only one machine ever ate tapes, why? Because the ADAT rubber idler wheel inside needed to be cleaned and the transport lubed and that was the problem. After servicing it, I had no further problems.

If you know how to service ADAT machines they will work reliable, I just find most Technicians don't really know how to work on ADAT machines, let alone how to tie their own shoes? Another words, like mechanics and tech's, most do not know what the hell they are doing, and do not care or give the little time to do it right. How many of you had good examples of this, outside of ADAT repair, like bad car mechanics anyone ?!?

I know these ALESIS ADAT tape based machines are not made anymore, but parts are plenty because of the numbers game of used machines being sold/DUMPED. And you should stock up on ADAT rubber idler wheels for your model of machine, its the only part that usually wears out after 1,000 head hours or so. The rotory heads should last you up to 6,000 head hours. Allot of recording life left in most used machines.

So why would you use them, because they work great, sound great, easy to use and set up for live use, similar gear with similar features and less connections cost allot more money.

Retailers are still trying to sell even new 16 bit plastic box compressed sounding crap recording gear now to new ignorant suckers. The old blackface sounds even better than the new 16 bit SD media compressed crapola' recorders they are trying to sell to ignorant buyers and their not even 8 tracks in and out !!! Let alone +4 db recording level inputs/outputs and don't have descent level meters.

I think ADAT's are still useful today, and yes I am not embarrased by using my old Ancient before Christ LS400 Lexus from 1992, I can still blow the doors off any new Toyota car and not have the accelerator stick on me.

[Melgueil]

ADAT's were fine in the day. SVHS was simply a storage medium for 1's and 0's -that's it.

You could and still can make good recordings on them. But then of course a prerequisite for that would be that you are a good engineer. That, helas, is one thing that has not and will not change.

Today we have 24 bit 192 blah, blah. People are still churning out crap - and go on to blame the tools they are using if they fall short. That also has not changed.
cdlt

[depulse]

Originally Posted by thenoodle

AH-HA !!!!! SEEEEE....I TOLD YA GUYZ !! The incoming kids of the next ten years are gonna think tracking to an adat is the same thing as tracking to tape ...because....well...heck...there IS a tape in there by golly.

Man, now I'm REALLY gonna go grab a bunch of used Adats to re-sell in 2012. The kids of 2012 are going to think that 3 adat machines equals a Studer A824.

I guess I better buy a few crates of vhs tape too while they're still here. I can sell those for $69.95 each in 2012.

Fast forward to 2012 - Here we are! Blackface ADATs can still be found for $100. You need to hibernate at least another 5 years.