The art of triggering drums

[SLy_drums]

How do you proceed when it comes to trigger some real drums with samples ?
Do you use Aptrigga, Drumagog, Sound Replacer ?
Do you always use multisamples with different stroke volumes ?

It's always a PITA to deal with mistriggering, when the drummer isn't very consistant, what are the tips here ? Do you gate the track first ?
Do you guys use automation on some weak hits to get the trigger to work ?

[nerogtr]

APTrigga is my preference (having used all 3 that you mentioned). I don't use multisamples since I don't like to 100% replace a drum sound (except for the kick on some projects). I usually use a single sample mixed in with the original signal to increase consistency and 'punch' of that drum. APTrigga's trigger EQ allows you to filter out unneeded frequencies and boost the dominant/characteristic frequency of the drum to help facilitate more accurate triggering (I believe drumagog has the same feature). I prefer not to run APTrigga (or any other triggering plugin) in in real time because of latency (and wasted CPU power), so I'll usually record the triggered signal 100% wet to a new track, fix any mistriggers (if any), time align it with the original, and mix the two together to taste. The ability to run APTrigga in real time really helps with auditioning different samples, which is why I prefer it to Sound Replacer (in addition to $$) Recording the output of an actual drum trigger and using that to trigger the sample instead of the mic (and the mix the triggered sample in with the mic sample as usual) is also supposed to cut down on mistriggers. I'm planning on making the investment in some DDrum triggers myself.

For $50 (+ the cost of a VST to RTAS wrapper if you are a PT user like me), you get some serious triggering functionality. If you need multisamples for 100% replacement with multisamples, Drumagog might be the way to go (cue Steven Slate...). Steer clear of Sound Replacer...not sure why anyone would use that over the other options currently available other than 'being used to it'.

[Rufuss Sewell]

I personally do it all in Logic. First I strip silence say the snare drum. Then I double check to see if any snares were inadvertently deleted or if a kick was left in. Then I use Logic Audio to Score function.

I use DFH superior for the samples. Works great.

[jbuntz]

Something odd I've noticed about drumagog is that the phasing is often tighter when in simple mode with the accuracy down. It doesn't track dynamics or snare fills as well though. I usually print a few different versions and edit between them. Also try to keep you samples as close to the original tuning when mixing with real drums. It can make in tune drums sound out and can do some weird phasing otherwise.

[SLy_drums]

Thanks guys ! Any other tip ?

[trigger]

I use a trigger plug-in called KTDrumTrigger. I insert this plug on a snare track for example. Then I create a midi track and select KTDrumTrigger as midi input and record a midi track of all snare drum hits. At this point, the trigger plug-in is not needed anymore so I remove it and set the output on my snare midi track to a drum sampler plug-in and load up my replacement samples in there. The best thing about doing it this way is the possibility to edit the midi track and have separate samples (midi notes) for ghost notes and rim shots.

[David-Morpheus]

I am using drumagog. When I track drums I always create a drum sample session where we records solo hits of every instrument (more hits from soft to hard of course). I use theese later to create custom gog files which I am using later.

I edit the individual tracks - cut or mute out any rumble that might fire the trigger, evening out some hits (cut them out and use the GAIN plug in PT) untill drumagog responds only to the "real" hits.

it takes some time but the result is worth it.
most of the times i'll blend somewhere between 50-80% the recorded samples with the "live" sound. in metal productions sometimes up to 100% with the kick drum to have it even in the whole song

[Gear Tramp]

I use apTrigga.

I have no problems with mistriggering or flamming. It works wonderfully.

I too, used to edit, and edit, and edit, and edit,. and edit... just so Drumagog could replace accurately. The above poster is right: Drumagog works much better in "Simple" mode with the slider all the way down... but that basically turns it into a more expensive version of apTrigga.

apTrigga always trgiiers with very minimal tweaking. It has multi-sample capability: 9 vs. 48 for Drumagog. If you're completely replacing snare, especially intricate snare tracks with rolls, rimshots, etc., you really have no choice except Drumagog combined with lots of editing and tweaking.

But I don't replace anything, except when doing metal. Even then, the only part of the kit I will replace is the kick. Everything else receives reinforcement. Multi-samples are not needed for this, in fact they defeat the purpose. The purpose in metal: consistent hard-hitting drums.

I hate the idea of editing so that a drum replacer can work. I could manually replace all the hits 20x faster than it takes to manually edit the track to play nicely with a replacer. Granted, they wouldn't be multi-samples, but like I said... I reinforce.

[tommy pee]

if im going to be using triggers for the snare, once its recorded i'll print it to a new track and filter it so that the snare hits are coming through really clearly. then i'll add in drumagog with the sample of my choice (usually a good hit from the same session) and let it do its thing.

i'll do the usual compression/eq on the original snare track and bus them both to the same reverb, maybe a seperate compressor as well.

any tricky fills i'll simply mute automate the trigger track and maybe brring up the overheads a little as well.

remember to only blend this lightly underneath the original track. never simply just replace

[kenevill]

i normally start of by using a real drummer and just leave it at that. seems to work fine for me

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by kenevill

i normally start of by using a real drummer and just leave it at that. seems to work fine for me

that works fine for a lot of genres, but not so much for a lot of metal / hardcore IMHO- especially with the kick. even an extremely skilled drummer is going to be hard pressed to play 32nd notes on the kick with the same intensity as their hardest hit.

[Led]

I don't use multisamples but most of the stuff I use is more ambience with the hit trimmed off like room mics that blend in under the live drum, more like a reverb effect.

[kenevill]

Originally Posted by nerogtr

that works fine for a lot of genres, but not so much for a lot of metal / hardcore IMHO- especially with the kick. even an extremely skilled drummer is going to be hard pressed to play 32nd notes on the kick with the same intensity as their hardest hit.

maybe they should practise then. i know people that can do it - Parkway Drive from Australia for example (they're on youtube) who are playing on the Warped Tour this year... their drummer is a nutter. if musicians are that dedicated they will practise and pull it off. oh, and 32nd notes? i don't think many people ever could do that nor should they try. 16th is a little more standard. you'll rarely see drummers doing 32nd notes outside of marching bands, and that's on a snare

[Gear Tramp]

Originally Posted by kenevill

maybe they should practise then. i know people that can do it - Parkway Drive from Australia for example (they're on youtube) who are playing on the Warped Tour this year... their drummer is a nutter.

Are you saying there aren't any samples on their album?

Because it sure sounds like it to me.

Sounds like it has seen Beat Detective too...

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by kenevill

maybe they should practise then. i know people that can do it - Parkway Drive from Australia for example (they're on youtube) who are playing on the Warped Tour this year... their drummer is a nutter. if musicians are that dedicated they will practise and pull it off. oh, and 32nd notes? i don't think many people ever could do that nor should they try. 16th is a little more standard. you'll rarely see drummers doing 32nd notes outside of marching bands, and that's on a snare

Hey dude, what's that drummers number? Ill just hire him every time I do a session with a drummer who "can't play"...arrogant ass-hat. 32nd notes...yeah, listen to 94 hours by as I lay dying. Guess what, its VERY rare to find a drummer who can play that fast and that hard, which is where triggering helps. I don't use triggers on every rock act that I record, its just helpful for certain genres and drummers. I'm an engineer, not a drum teacher and im going to get the best sounds I can, however I can given what I have to work with.

[Gear Tramp]

Parkway Drive's drum sound makes me think of samples and quantization.

But, maybe it's just the drummer's practice regimen that makes it sound that way...

[Gear Tramp]

Originally Posted by nerogtr

32nd notes...yeah, listen to 94 hours by as I lay dying. Guess what, its VERY rare to find a drummer who can play that fast and that hard, which is where triggering helps.

Jordan is a ****ing berserker on the kit, and he can put it down live.

[egan]

Originally Posted by nerogtr

Hey dude, what's that drummers number? Ill just hire him every time I do a session with a drummer who "can't play"...arrogant ass-hat. 32nd notes...yeah, listen to 94 hours by as I lay dying. Guess what, its VERY rare to find a drummer who can play that fast and that hard, which is where triggering helps. I don't use triggers on every rock act that I record, its just helpful for certain genres and drummers. I'm an engineer, not a drum teacher and im going to get the best sounds I can, however I can given what I have to work with.

It's funny to me how everyone assumes sample replacement is a crutch when in modern metal it is a production style choice as well. Folks can choose not to like that style but it is part of the sound and something clients often want for metal.

[dropblacksky]

Sorry dude, but I'd be willing to bet the Parkway drive sound is samples...and likely gridded as well. As was mentioned by the last poster, it's not a crutch, but a production technique to obtain a certain sound. Most of the big time drummers CAN throw it down live and in the studio timing wise, but dynamic inconsistencies will show through in the recording and a dynamic kick isn't popular in modern metal...each hit needs to hit you in the stomach. A lot of those drummers are triggering samples LIVE as well...so just cuz you saw so and so rip it up live doesn't mean samples aren't being used there as well.

[dbbubba]

I was replacing kick drums with an Alesis D4 when they came out in 1991.
In fact, I used a Roland sampler to replace snare hits as far back as 1988.
Build a trigger track and then spend a few hours with the drummer erasing the mis-triggers. This was all on analog doing the erasing by rocking the 2" reels and marking the ins and outs. Hand pulling tape over the erase head.

I'd usually end up piping the kicks back out into he studio through a pair of monitors and recording a stereo ambience track. This was to make the kicks seem as if they were part of the same performance.
These days the kicks are insanely triggered sounding!

My real problem was never the kick drums, but the snare and toms.
When guys would play that 100 mph circus beat stuff liike in the intense parts of speed metal stuff THERE WAS NO WAY THE SNARE WAS GOING TO HAVE A CRACK TO IT!
The drummer didn't have time to raise him stick far enough off of the head to whack the drum hard!

Sometimes I just went for a "feel" of what was being plkayed because there was NO WAY to get everything the guy was playing to cut through the GTRs and bass! Getting the BASS ITSELF to cut through was difficult enough!

These were mostly mid to late '80s Texas metal bands like: Gammacide, Morbid Scream, etc...

DrumaGog, APTrigga or Sound Replacer sound like a fantasy to me because I have not had to trigger anything since then! I have been blessed to use ONLY a very good studio drummer for years.

I am about to replace the kick on six cuts I am mixing and I will have to delve into the world of those programs. The recorded kick drum sound needs to match and the drum tracks we cut at A&M Studios is better sounding and on more tracks. Six were from my room anmd twelve were cut at A&M.

My next mix project will require me to replace the kick AND snare on ten cuts.
This is mostly because they were not well recorded in the first place.
I didn't record them!

APTrigga or DrumaGog sound like the answer for me!

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I was replacing kick drums with an Alesis D4 when they came out in 1991.
In fact, I used a Roland sampler to replace snare hits as far back as 1988.
Build a trigger track and then spend a few hours with the drummer erasing the mis-triggers. This was all on analog doing the erasing by rocking the 2" reels and marking the ins and outs. Hand pulling tape over the erase head.

I find this incredible!! One slip of the hand and your in big trouble, there is no undo button!!!! Thank God I'm in the Digital generation, my hand are far too shaky for the kind of carry on

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

[fastlane]

Oh yeah, almost forgot!! It's way to early for me!!

Drumagog here too. I use it to trigger audio to midi and record a midi version of the kick and/or the snare. I usually run the audio track through a gate and a compressor(ITB)(not actually compressing just adding a few dBs of gain as I track at fairly low levels and a-5 or -6 peak translates to around 80 in midi velocity)

Then I route the midi tracks through BFD and go through the each one making sure drumagog has done it's job and fixing an errors in velocity or miss hits.

Me Happy = Drummer Happy = Band Happy = Me Happy = Girlfriend Happy = Me Happy

[sleeps]

Apple C (copy), tab to transient, shift apple V (paste to next transient).

Every kick hit. Every snare hit. Every tom hit. Tedious task, but I enjoy the results!

[neujan]

yep, tab to transient here as well, tried soundreplacer and it´s just not accurate enough to mix it with the original which i like better than just replacing...

maybe i´m just doing it wrong; any ideas, how to get more accurate results with soundreplacer?

thanx and cheers jan

[kenevill]

Originally Posted by Gear Tramp

Jordan is a ****ing berserker on the kit, and he can put it down live.

yes, he can put it down live. i'm a drummer so i've listened every time i've seen them (which was years ago when not many people had heard of them) and he does pull it off flawlessly

[SLy_drums]

It's funny you talk about Parkway Drive, we played with them in France with my band Stillrise. They are amazing live and I'm going to see them again in june at Pressure Fest in Germany

The drummer can play but doesn't really hit hard, but that doesn't mean he isn't good at what he does.
However there are CERTAINLY a lot of triggering on thei last album, produced by Adam D. of Killswitch Engage. Especially the kick drum which doesn't sound natural at all. And it's quantized, no doubts.

[adamcal]

I also like to make a midi track out of the triggers via a program like KTtrigger or drumagog, then sent it off to my sampler of choice, that way I have full control of everything, editing, timing, miss hits, missing hits, velocity, and sound.

I like to be able to dial through sounds in real time as they are triggering, hearing how they suit the song and rest of the kit.

[adamcal]

Originally Posted by kenevill

i normally start of by using a real drummer and just leave it at that. seems to work fine for me

I thought this tread was about the art of triggering drums, not the art of not triggering drums.

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by adamcal

I thought this tread was about the art of triggering drums, not the art of not triggering drums.

Amen haha. I normally avoid flame wars, but I'm sorry, kenevill's comments were too naive for me to resist. In fact, they annoyed me enough to provoke me to reply on my blackberry in an airport. I was roaming after i landed so i had no data connection / internet until today. I'm glad a few others agreed with me on the subject. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh.

Originally Posted by egan

It's funny to me how everyone assumes sample replacement is a crutch when in modern metal it is a production style choice as well. Folks can choose not to like that style but it is part of the sound and something clients often want for metal.

I have to explain this to people far too often.

[b3player]

V Drums! Audio. Midi. Easy.

g