Lyrics - Simple vs Abstract

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by C Heat

Oh man, don't get me started.

I've been extrememly focused on writing 'clever' and 'abstarct' lyrics. Maybe not for the whole song, but parts of it. I hate nothing worse than derivative-cliche-telegraphed lyrics.

Perhaps I'm getting simple mixed up with derivative-cliche-telegraphed.

You're right though. Simple is best IMHO. But the trick is writing GREAT simple lyrics.

It IS a fine line, and not as easy as it looks.

That's the key, right there.

When I was writing my first songs after I picked up the guitar in college, I was coming from a background in academic poetry ( ) and felt compelled to jam my musically primitive songs (I was greatly influenced by the middle section of "Down by the River" -- Two chords! I can play that! ) with as much arcane imagery and convoluted metaphors as I could jam in syllables sideways... (thoroughly half-baked) references to Hindic literature, obscure philosophers and mystics, esoteric sexual practices, the latest intellectual fads...

Basically, I was a mess until I started really appreciating people like Hank Williams... people who could tell a whole story or explore an emotion in a few verses and a chorus.

It's not the only way to write, of course, and there will always be a place for good -- or at least intriguing or amusing -- arty, esoteric lyrics.

But for me, it was a matter of stripping away all my youthful pretense and bluster and ambition and letting the song tell me where it wanted to go instead of continually trying to steer it into my somewhat overcooked idea of hipness...

[Extramission]

I don't like it when people say that songs should only be performed by the people who wrote them. That belief began in mid 1960s and has plagued us since. There was a time when the belief was the opposite. Songwriters almost never sang their own songs. Who would you rather hear sing, Frank Sinatra or Irving Berlin? Bing Crosby or Cole Porter? Elvis or any of his songwriters? There was once a wonderful market for songwriters and skilled interpreters that has now died because people believe that a performer singing someone else’s song is insincere.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

But as I said, if you want to make money with your music, you have to do it pretty much full-time. It's the only way to have a realistic shot.

I agree but I think a better way to think about it is that there are "lifers" and there are "dabblers".

I think that wanting to be a "lifer" is key to becoming a good songwriter.

Dabblers can hit one out of the park once in a while, but creating a track record is a different thing, whether you're talking hits or just writing good songs in general.

Originally Posted by theblue1

But for me, it was a matter of stripping away all my youthful pretense and bluster and ambition and letting the song tell me where it wanted to go instead of continually trying to steer it into my somewhat overcooked idea of hipness...

It's like whittling. And sometimes I think it's the most "zen" part of the music-creating process.

Also, isn't it kind of hard to believe that some of the greatest pop songs were written by people who were basically kids at the time? I mean, "A Day in the Life" was written by a 26-year old, right? WTF did I know when I was 26?

[JP11]

Originally Posted by Extramission

I don't like it when people say that songs should only be performed by the people who wrote them. That belief began in mid 1960s and has plagued us since. There was a time when the belief was the opposite. Songwriters almost never sang their own songs. Who would you rather hear sing, Frank Sinatra or Irving Berlin? Bing Crosby or Cole Porter? Elvis or any of his songwriters? There was once a wonderful market for songwriters and skilled interpreters that has now died because people believe that a performer singing someone else’s song is insincere.

I agree with that. Said something similar on some other thread not too long ago.

And blamed The Beatles, who busted open the door to artists writing their own material.

The difference though, between The Beatles and that general era through the 70s, and those following starting maybe in the 80s, is they were still connected to that old craft of songwriting. Grew up on it, influenced by it.

Bob Dylan's best songs have crafted melodies and crafted lyrics and could be sung by anybody and still be great songs.

Many of the singer songwriters of that time were songwriters first, learning the craft, trying to get their songs covered.

Now, everyone is a "songwriter", and the bar has dropped way way way down as to what makes a great song or a song great.

There's nothing more awful to me than some non song with a non melody and some meaningless personal lyrics from some "sincere artist".

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by JP11

Now, everyone is a "songwriter", and the bar has dropped way way way down as to what makes a great song or a song great.

Actually, I think there are more people who can write a good song today than there ever have been. But most are not on commercial radio.

[JP11]

Originally Posted by max cooper

Actually, I think there are more people who can write a good song today than there ever have been. But most are not on commercial radio.

Okay, I'm full o shit!

Point me to a song (as good as The Beatles best, or Dylan's best, or something better than Somewhere Over The Rainbow) and I'll go listen to it.

[amberience]

Originally Posted by JP11

Okay, I'm full o shit!

Point me to a song (as good as The Beatles best, or Dylan's best, or something better than Somewhere Over The Rainbow) and I'll go listen to it.

Visit any forum with a music cafe where people can upload their own music, and you'll find hundreds of great tunes.

[JP11]

Okay, I'm full o shit, and I'm lazy!

Point me to a hundred hidden gems that should be standing along side the great standards.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by JP11

Point me to a hundred hidden gems that should be standing along side the great standards.

That's not actually what I said. I think there are more people who can write a good song today than there ever have been.

Standards usually don't become standards right away. Exceptions, yes.

I don't have time to give up a hundred, but:

Cat Power "The Moon"
Elliott Smith "Angeles"
Blonde Redhead "Anticipation"
Garbage "Milk" (way underrated song)
Mark Lanegan "When Your Number Isn't Up"

[dreamsongs]

There is some good music out there but you have to search hard to find it. The web is a vast galaxy....

I can write a hit song tonight post it on the web somewhere and it'll take you 20 years to find it. This is why my hopes for making money thru the internet has gone out the window. I know many artists and bands with music on the web who don't even make enough to pay my studio's monthly electric bill. But that's another story...

Unfortunately, we're all at the mercy of Viacom and Clear Channel. That's pretty much who control what we hear and what the majority of the kids listen to and buy...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by max cooper

I agree but I think a better way to think about it is that there are "lifers" and there are "dabblers".

I think that wanting to be a "lifer" is key to becoming a good songwriter.

Dabblers can hit one out of the park once in a while, but creating a track record is a different thing, whether you're talking hits or just writing good songs in general.




It's like whittling. And sometimes I think it's the most "zen" part of the music-creating process.

Also, isn't it kind of hard to believe that some of the greatest pop songs were written by people who were basically kids at the time? I mean, "A Day in the Life" was written by a 26-year old, right? WTF did I know when I was 26?

"A Day in the Life" really knocked me out when I was 16 but I'm afraid it's just about as enigmatic to me today as it was then but not necessarily as compelling -- much as I very much like the song. (It's emblematic, for me, of a time when I was giving rock "one more chance" after rejecting it when I became an insufferably iconoclastic teen. It was a great time when I discovered not just wild ass rock but... girls.)

But I think "A Day in the Life" works best for me as an impressionistic series of images, Antonioniesque, as we used to say, anyhow.

That said, I think some of his/their earlier songs are just dynamite, brilliant craftsmanship, timeless stuff.


One of my favorite examples of the kind of thing you're talking about: "I've Been Out Walking" by Jackson Brown. The lyrics are world weary, melancholy, nostalgic... and they were written by a guy who was maybe 17 at most. (He had, no doubt, by that time seen a lot. He was, after all hooked up with and hanging out with Nico and the VU crowd.)


Sometimes I hear a very young artist and they just seem way older than they should... I've heard some girls singing torch songs that could break your heart, the yearning and anguish seems so genuine -- yet they're, like, 14.

Or once in a great while I'll hear an instrumentalist with extraordinary, jaw-dropping command of his idiom and tone... the kind of thing that really should take tweny or thirty years to develop... and they're in junior high.


Me... it's taken me three and a half decades to get to a point where I sound like a teenager who's forgot to practice for the last three weeks.

I think sometimes early success can be a burden -- as is often said. But in rock and pop -- and now what passes for country -- that's usually how it goes.

I was thinking about this earlier when I was contrasting some of Duke Ellington's stuff from the 1920's -- which I can't hardly get enough of -- with some of his beautiful, superbly crafted, elegant "serious" music from the 60s...

I mean, I LOVE the old bawdyhouse stuff. It freakin' rocks. But how sad would it have been if Ellington had just kept on giving folks what they thought they wanted, delivering the same good time music over and over for the next four decades?

So I'm glad he found a way to transcend the traps of commercial success and early fame.

It's a shame there's not a way for more musicians to do it.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Day in the Life really knocked me out when I was 16 but I'm afraid it's just about as enigmatic but not necessarily nearly as compelling to me today -- much as I like the song. I think it works best for me as an impressionistic series of images, Antonioniesque, as we used to say.

This is exactly the kind of stuff going through my mind these days (bonus points for the Antonioni reference).

I think "Day in the Life" is totally about the quiet desperation of everyday people, kinda like "Eleanor Rigby". Not just a series of images. Which is where I think impressionistic lyrics do the best; but sometimes they're nonsensical and I like that too.

Mind if I put up a couple of lyrics for comparison?

Cry Baby Cry

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better.

The king of Marigold was in the kitchen
Cooking breakfast for the queen
The queen was in the parlour
Playing piano for the children of the king.

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry.

The king was in the garden
Picking flowers for a friend who came to play
The queen was in the playroom
Painting pictures for the childrens holiday.

The duchess of Kircaldy always smiling
And arriving late for tea
The duke was having problems
With a message at the local bird and bee.

At twelve o'clock a meeting round the table
For a seance in the dark
With voices out of nowhere
Put on specially by the children for a lark.

Can you take me back where I came from?
Can you take me back?
Can you take me back where I came from?
Brother can you take me back?
Can you take me back?
Oooh, can you take me where I came from?
Can you take me back?

Anyone got a clue what that means?

And then Bowie's Quicksand (which I think must have been written after listening to Sympathy for the Devil).

I'm closer to the Golden Dawn
Immersed in Crowley's uniform
Of imagery
I'm living in a silent film
Portraying
Himmler's sacred realm
Of dream reality
I'm frightened by the total goal
Drawing to the ragged hole
And I ain't got the power anymore
No I ain't got the power anymore

I'm the twisted name
on Garbo's eyes
Living proof of
Churchill's lies
I'm destiny
I'm torn between the light and dark
Where others see their targets
Divine symmetry
Should I kiss the viper's fang
Or herald loud

the death of Man
I'm sinking in the quicksand
of my thought
And I ain't got the power anymore

CHORUS
Don't believe in yourself
Don't deceive with belief
Knowledge comes
with death's release

I'm not a prophet
or a stone age man
Just a mortal
with the potential of a superman
I'm living on
I'm tethered to the logic
of Homo Sapien
Can't take my eyes
from the great salvation
Of bullshit faith
If I don't explain what you ought to know
You can tell me all about it
On, the next Bardo
I'm sinking in the quicksand
of my thought
And I ain't got the power anymore

These are both songs that I love. I aspire to the former more than the latter. The former seems more inspired to me, whereas the latter seems more about craft.

What do you think?

Writing lyrics is damn hard for me. I can write the chords and melody all day long. The words get stuck in my throat.

[JP11]

Originally Posted by max cooper

That's not actually what I said. I think there are more people who can write a good song today than there ever have been.

Standards usually don't become standards right away. Exceptions, yes.

I don't have time to give up a hundred, but:

Cat Power "The Moon"
Elliott Smith "Angeles"
Blonde Redhead "Anticipation"
Garbage "Milk" (way underrated song)
Mark Lanegan "When Your Number Isn't Up"

I was talking about great songs, not good ones. Songs that are pretty much universally considered the cream of the crop. I agree that there are more songs than ever, but I'm not sure there are many, or any, that are much better than good.

I listened to Cat Power. Hmmmm. I mean, it's just my opinion, but.... The lyric is okay. Didn't really go anywhere. Nothing particularly earth shattering (or moon shattering).

But the music. Just miserable. 3 miserable chords. A tortuous melody. And the vocal. Just terrible.

This is exactly the kind of non song I was talking about. If this is the best of now, to me, it just proves my point.

I would be surprised if others here listened to this song and thought it was even close to being as good as The Beatles' best (or worst even), or songs that Sinatra or Nat King Cole sang, or classic Paul Simon songs, etc. etc. etc.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by JP11

But the music. Just miserable. 3 miserable chords. A tortuous melody. And the vocal. Just terrible.

Who cares how many chords? Some great songs only have one chord... Ever heard of John Lee Hooker? One of the best songs I've ever written doesn't really ever change chords either, you might say it has a change in the chorus but not necessarily.

[astronmr20]

The meter. The temo. The delivery. The images. The feeling the listener gets.


These matter far more than the words themselves. A song can have great poetry, but it's a song first.



A great example;

"you're beautiful" by James Blunt.

Utter drivel when read on paper. Contrived diahrerra. Rediculous tripe bullshit. But his delivery shot it to #1.

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by astronmr20

A great example;

"you're beautiful" by James Blunt.

Utter drivel when read on paper. Contrived diahrerra. Rediculous tripe bullshit. But his delivery shot it to #1.

I wanna vomit when I hear it. I seriously can't listen to it

You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw your face in a crowded place,
And I don't know what to do,
'Cause I'll never be with you.

Wow. All he needed was a 'I can't take it no more, since you walked out the door'

If 'I' wrote that lyric I would have burnt it quicker than I thought it

BUT - you're right, it WENT NUMBER 1 THE WORLD OVER!

Go figure

Good luck to him all the same. He's doin' it. He's livin' it. Makin' money. Famous. I have none of those things, so who am I to comment

I DO have a NEW motto now though: 'Dumb it down'

[JP11]

Originally Posted by Stiff

Who cares how many chords? Some great songs only have one chord... Ever heard of John Lee Hooker? One of the best songs I've ever written doesn't really ever change chords either, you might say it has a change in the chorus but not necessarily.

I agree completely. I said 3 miserable chords. Did you listen to the song?

Btw, while there are many wonderful songs with few chords, or simple chords, or one chord or no chords, and everyone has taken the blues or Tomorrow Never Knows type songs to the hilt, endless repetitive grooves, collages, mash-ups with abstract meaningless lyrics strung together or simpleminded teenage nonsense blah blah blah...yes, it all can be wonderful (and awful, too).

But an interesting musical chord progression with an original melody and inspired meaningful lyrics can be wonderful, too, can't it?

I heard a muzak version of Brian Wilson today in an elevator (God Only Knows). Sounded like f*cking classical music. Like Beethoven or something. It was well constructed, went somewhere, instantly recognizable, and a beautiful melody (yes, I know, how gay).

[astronmr20]

Originally Posted by JP11

I agree completely. I said 3 miserable chords. Did you listen to the song?

Btw, while there are many wonderful songs with few chords, or simple chords, or one chord or no chords, and everyone has taken the blues or Tomorrow Never Knows type songs to the hilt, endless repetitive grooves, collages, mash-ups with abstract meaningless lyrics strung together or simpleminded teenage nonsense blah blah blah...yes, it all can be wonderful (and awful, too).

But an interesting musical chord progression with an original melody and inspired meaningful lyrics can be wonderful, too, can't it?

I heard a muzak version of Brian Wilson today in an elevator (God Only Knows). Sounded like f*cking classical music. Like Beethoven or something. It was well constructed, went somewhere, instantly recognizable, and a beautiful melody (yes, I know, how gay).

God only Knows could be in a polka version and would still rule.

Now THERE is an example of pure brilliance. That song gives me chills.

[astronmr20]

Originally Posted by C Heat

I wanna vomit when I hear it. I seriously can't listen to it

You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
You're beautiful, it's true.
I saw your face in a crowded place,
And I don't know what to do,
'Cause I'll never be with you.

Wow. All he needed was a 'I can't take it no more, since you walked out the door'

If 'I' wrote that lyric I would have burnt it quicker than I thought it

BUT - you're right, it WENT NUMBER 1 THE WORLD OVER!

Go figure

Good luck to him all the same. He's doin' it. He's livin' it. Makin' money. Famous. I have none of those things, so who am I to comment

I DO have a NEW motto now though: 'Dumb it down'

(as far as making money goes, actually he comes from quite a VERY wealthy family to begin with, FYI. funny how his "back story" mentions his militay service, but leaves out interesting tid-bits like that. it's irrelevant, but just sayin').

[Extramission]

Originally Posted by JP11

I agree completely. I said 3 miserable chords. Did you listen to the song?

Btw, while there are many wonderful songs with few chords, or simple chords, or one chord or no chords, and everyone has taken the blues or Tomorrow Never Knows type songs to the hilt, endless repetitive grooves, collages, mash-ups with abstract meaningless lyrics strung together or simpleminded teenage nonsense blah blah blah...yes, it all can be wonderful (and awful, too).

But an interesting musical chord progression with an original melody and inspired meaningful lyrics can be wonderful, too, can't it?

I heard a muzak version of Brian Wilson today in an elevator (God Only Knows). Sounded like f*cking classical music. Like Beethoven or something. It was well constructed, went somewhere, instantly recognizable, and a beautiful melody (yes, I know, how gay).

These guys like Brian Wilson grew up on Burt Bacharach, Leiber and Stoller, Carol King, and all the other Brill Building song writers. The Beatles grew up on people like Buddy Holly. Both camps grew up on song writers who mastered song form and melody. Dylan grew up on the best folk and blues song craftsman including Robert Johnson and Woody Gutherie.

I would also like to point out that part of the songwriting craft is making lyrics appear autobiographical. Dylan says very clearly in his book that most of his songs were not about him but everyone thought they were and thats one reason people liked them.

As for abstract lyrics, their sucess hinges on the mood on the song's arrangement. If the arrangement sucks than the abstract lyrics will fall on deaf ears.

[Unclenny]

Boy...a lot of folks chiming in on this.

I've got songs...lots of them. I've been writing ever since I realized that I could not do justice to other folks tunes. Mine are all pretty simple.
And I have heard a bunch of good tunes here on GS from folks just like me, and just like John Lennon, and just like Jackson Browne.

If it's all about making some money...good luck. But if it's all about making music, I say just keep playing.

I hear so much stuff that sounds like....all the other stuff. Play your own music. Who knows where it might lead.

SoundClick song info: Rescue Me by Lenny and the Scapers - Song info page with MP3 music downloads

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

Boy...a lot of folks chiming in on this.

I've got songs...lots of them. I've been writing ever since I realized that I could not do justice to other folks tunes. Mine are all pretty simple.
And I have heard a bunch of good tunes here on GS from folks just like me, and just like John Lennon, and just like Jackson Browne.

If it's all about making some money...good luck. But if it's all about making music, I say just keep playing.

I hear so much stuff that sounds like....all the other stuff. Play your own music. Who knows where it might lead.

SoundClick song info: Rescue Me by Lenny and the Scapers - Song info page with MP3 music downloads

It is possible to write great songs you like or music you love and still make money. It's the difference between playing sports as a weekend warrior and being a Professional athlete.

If you set out to be one, you can't be the other...

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

It is possible to write great songs you like or music you love and still make money. It's the difference between playing sports as a weekend warrior and being a Professional athlete.

If you set out to be one, you can't be the other...

I absolutely agree.

If I was trying to 'make it' as a songwriter I would surround myself with as many pros as possible so that I could concentrate on the craft of songwriting. Whether you are keeping it simple or going for something more abstract, a well crafted song will stand out from the songs that just drift out and get captured in the studio.

As a 'weekend warrior' who just needs to play, I just want to put out the best material that I can for anyone who cares to give a listen. For me it's mostly simple stuff.

[amberience]

Originally Posted by JP11

I was talking about great songs, not good ones. Songs that are pretty much universally considered the cream of the crop. I agree that there are more songs than ever, but I'm not sure there are many, or any, that are much better than good.

I listened to Cat Power. Hmmmm. I mean, it's just my opinion, but.... The lyric is okay. Didn't really go anywhere. Nothing particularly earth shattering (or moon shattering).

But the music. Just miserable. 3 miserable chords. A tortuous melody. And the vocal. Just terrible.

This is exactly the kind of non song I was talking about. If this is the best of now, to me, it just proves my point.

I would be surprised if others here listened to this song and thought it was even close to being as good as The Beatles' best (or worst even), or songs that Sinatra or Nat King Cole sang, or classic Paul Simon songs, etc. etc. etc.

Look, you're just mentally archaic ok? You're just deficient in the appreciation glands, and you need to wet them a little.

[JP11]

Originally Posted by amberience

Look, you're just mentally archaic ok? You're just deficient in the appreciation glands, and you need to wet them a little.

Good one.

[-Noodles-]

if you like a line, and it "fits".. then fook it! .. put it in.