Black Lion Microclock

[invinco]

So I've been recording on a Motu 828mkii for some time, and it's becoming apparent that I might want some better converters in the near future. I'm pretty much intent on eventually being able to mix entirely in analog, which will require a whole mess of D/A conversion channels in addition to good a/d. In other words, expensive.
The Black Lion analog mod seems like a good place to start, but evidently they've stopped modding clocks in favor of selling this new thingy:
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/microclock.html
Since it costs about a third of what I'd pay for a Big Ben on ebay (and maybe half of what one might pay for a secondhand mytek clock) I figure I can't go wrong spending the money I save on better mics, pres and such.

So does it seem like a worthwhile purchase? I suspect that apogee/etc. would be more of an improvement in sound quality, but since I haven't had any experience comparing different clocks I have no idea how subtle the difference is. I assume some would say that the analog bits of a converter make more of a difference than the word clock, others would take the opposite viewpoint, and so on.

In any case, it looks like I'm going to be daisy-chaining MOTU boxes to get all the I/O that I need, up until the point when I can save up $6k or so for the appropriate higher-end equivalents. So would I be better off with the mod and black lion's new clock, or should I just save up for a nicer external clock?
Or would it make more sense to hold off on the whole upgrade idea and save up for something nicer? I'm not expecting perfection or anything, I just want conversion quality that might be considered competetive with Protools HD or what have you.

[Albert]

You are making a lot of assumptions in your thinking. At this point you simply do not know if this Micro Clock is better or worse than the Big Ben or any other WC device on the market. You are assuming that because the Big Ben is more expensive it must be better. Perhpas it is, perhaps it isn't. The only way to know is to A/B them.

Since BLA offers a 30 day money back guarantee, it seems like a no-brainer that you just give the thing a tryout.

[yellowrobin]

Well I can tell you one thing for sure, When I had my Motu Traveler upgraded by Black Lion Audio it went from a "semi-pro" sound to a "Pro- sound" because of the their clock upgrade.

[Reza]

Give Black Lion a call.

I spoke to them a few weeks ago on the phone about all this.

They said they are working on an external clock themselves that they claim will match units like the Big Ben, and be far, far cheaper.

I'd call them and have a chat about your set-up.

Cheers,

Rez

[Strobian]

I have used a Motu 2408 MK2 for awhile myself. I was looking to get a Mytek digital interface, because of their quality and their clock is much superior to most units. I decided to give BLA a go, and I have to say that the upgrade is top notch. They replace the entire analog stage in the unit and it sounds as it should now. Also talking to them for the last few months about the micro clock their intent was to shoot for the quality standards of something like a Mytek. I personally will buy this clock now, because the clock they previously offered is not available. So for an extra $650 I got a unit that easily is as every bit as good or better than a rosetta now(my opinion), which also can clock other items in the studio. They told me they A/B their interface modifications in comparative to a Rosetta, and shoot higher. What I experienced was quality work.

Turns out my mastering engineer had the same thing done to his 24/IO by Motu, and in typical form here, he has the Neve, Focusrite ISA, Universal Audio, and an array of higher end audio products and says its some of the best money he spent.

[jaysunice]

I have the "supposedly" 2nd MicroClock built (for customers) sitting next to me. Very solid and simple looking -- although the font is a little smudged, likely because of its very small size. Unfortunately, I won't be able to test it out until my BNC cables come in -- moreover, I sent my MOTU 896HD to get the converter upgrade this morning. So I'll first try and do some tests with the just the converter upgrade and then some A/B-ing with the MicroClock as soon as my baby gets back from Chicago.

[Elogical4now]

Spoke with BLA a few months ago. I've been waiting for this unit to drop.

Please post your reviews asap.

Can't wait to hear what you think.

[Ackman]

I went through the same delima months ago. This is what I did. I got the BLA upgrade and my 828 sounded much better post mod.

I think the upgrade is definetly worth the money. I then purchased the AD16x - which sounded better than the motu with the upgrade which I expected. Just an overall better converter.

That left me in a quandry when I moved toward analog mixing. I felt a bit of a let down going DA using my 828 BLA mod and I couldn't afford to shell out another 3K+ for the DA16x so I sold my AD16x on ebay and bought the Aurora 16 with AES 16 card. That solved my problem and I did not see a drop off in sound quality. I still use my 828 as a summing/mixer sometimes for quick mixes because it is so convenient to use with CueMix.

I will eventually replace it with the SPeck Xtramix when I get the dough, but it sounds good enough. I feel that the audio upgrade was significant for me because I don't feel I losing much if anything going through it. I sync both my Aurora 16 and 828 to my Big Ben, but I don't hear a big benefit - and I'm thinking about selling my BigBen. I A/B the Aurora and I'm just not hearing a difference, so I'm 90% putting it on ebay.

I think the BLA is worth it the money based on the jump in quality,but if I had to do it over, I would have put that money towards the Aurora + Xtramix and not buy Big Ben because of the clean integration of Aurora in my setup and the additional channels (16 AD + 16DA). My two cents.

[Autocrat]

Hey Ackman - I had my 896HD modded as well (no clock) last year. I'm thinking of getting the Microclock or possibly re-look at converters.

What did you notice as an improvement when you went from the BLA 828 to the Aurora? Are you using PT or DP?

Thanks

[invinco]

Interesting... I've thought about the Aurora as well (definitely enticing since I need lots of a/d AND d/a)
Can you use all of the channels of the 828 and Aurora at the same time with your setup? What recording software are you using?

Originally Posted by Ackman

I went through the same delima months ago. This is what I did. I got the BLA upgrade and my 828 sounded much better post mod.

I think the upgrade is definetly worth the money. I then purchased the AD16x - which sounded better than the motu with the upgrade which I expected. Just an overall better converter.

That left me in a quandry when I moved toward analog mixing. I felt a bit of a let down going DA using my 828 BLA mod and I couldn't afford to shell out another 3K+ for the DA16x so I sold my AD16x on ebay and bought the Aurora 16 with AES 16 card. That solved my problem and I did not see a drop off in sound quality. I still use my 828 as a summing/mixer sometimes for quick mixes because it is so convenient to use with CueMix.

I will eventually replace it with the SPeck Xtramix when I get the dough, but it sounds good enough. I feel that the audio upgrade was significant for me because I don't feel I losing much if anything going through it. I sync both my Aurora 16 and 828 to my Big Ben, but I don't hear a big benefit - and I'm thinking about selling my BigBen. I A/B the Aurora and I'm just not hearing a difference, so I'm 90% putting it on ebay.

I think the BLA is worth it the money based on the jump in quality,but if I had to do it over, I would have put that money towards the Aurora + Xtramix and not buy Big Ben because of the clean integration of Aurora in my setup and the additional channels (16 AD + 16DA). My two cents.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by Autocrat

Hey Ackman - I had my 896HD modded as well (no clock) last year. I'm thinking of getting the Microclock or possibly re-look at converters.

What did you notice as an improvement when you went from the BLA 828 to the Aurora? Are you using PT or DP?

Thanks

Just got back from Cali - no internet access.
I'm using Cubase 4.
I noticed an improvement on the low end - but not dramatic - the biggest benefit was the number of ins/outs and integration with AES-16 card.

I hear the 896HD BLA Mod (with clock) sounds killer - I would recommend the clock, but only if you're not syncing to other clock. BLA uses a free running clock - which works well as an internal clock but doesn't take direction well.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by invinco

Interesting... I've thought about the Aurora as well (definitely enticing since I need lots of a/d AND d/a)
Can you use all of the channels of the 828 and Aurora at the same time with your setup? What recording software are you using?

I use the 828 as a mixer/summing box (at times). For my final mixes I by pass my 828 and go straight to a CD-RW900 to avoid further conversions.

So to answer, I use both at the same time but independently. Using 828 as a mixer gives me flexibility and facilitates a comfortable workflow when I'm mixing. Once I have the mix how I like it - I remove it from the chain. Since every thing is set to unity gain I have very little if any adjustments after I remove it from my chain.

I want to go to a smoother process - not having the extra step of removing my mix/summer from the chain before I print - but I'll have save some nickles to get the XTRA-Mix.

My set-up sounds a bit more complicated than it is - because the 828 is easy to move in and out of the chain. But all of my conversion from recording to final mixdown is done through Aurora 16.

[Swansonic]

slightly off topic but...
My set up is HD24>analoge mixer>828>wavelab>828>mixer>near fields.
I have been thinking of better converters to get my mix into the computer lately.
But $$ has me thinking of doing the mods from BLA instead.
The price seems right for the mods and I can't see myself dropping big $ for converters.
Is the mod something that will improve the 828 for the long term or just make me want to go get better converters that much sooner.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by swansonic

slightly off topic but...
My set up is HD24>analoge mixer>828>wavelab>828>mixer>near fields.
I have been thinking of better converters to get my mix into the computer lately.
But $$ has me thinking of doing the mods from BLA instead.
The price seems right for the mods and I can't see myself dropping big $ for converters.
Is the mod something that will improve the 828 for the long term or just make me want to go get better converters that much sooner.

1. the mod will definitely improve the 828 - noticeably so - worth every penny!
2. all improvements to your set up is like "a good drug" - the first hit is the best - you feel great satisfaction - and will leave you wanting more.

Your second question is a conundrum for all slutz - the better you get - the better you want to get - and there's always a better converter until you get to an extremely high price point (way above BLA mod, Lynx,etc...) - So my point is - you will always want more - but that shouldn't stop you from taking a significant leap in quality with a BLA mod - which is probably the most bang for the buck. If you need more channels - wait and get the Aurora 16.

I hope that helps.

[peeder]

1) What is this doing in "High End?" Anyway, since it's here...

2) External clocks only help with synchronization issues with multiple otherwise independent devices. They do not improve the sound of converters, other than in very specific (and increasingly rare) circumstances. There are numerous reasons for the mythology of jitter that Bob Katz' book covers quite well. For nearly everyone with fewer than, say, four or five digital devices that must run simultaneously, a dedicated clock is a waste of money and has a better than even chance of decreasing sound quality.

Your best bet is to have your most critical ADC as master during tracking, your most critical DAC as master during mixdown, and for the remainder of your digital work, to stay ITB, where there is no clock. Signal can interfere with clock, so use word clock cable when available.

3) The Black Lion company runs on a common psychological pitfall called "the sunk-cost trap." This is also known as "throwing good money after bad." People feel they need to make good on their existing investment in an interface...they are loathe to take a loss on it, since interfaces are basically disposable like 1GB hard drives and CRT monitors. So everyone dearly wants to believe that somehow they will come out ahead plowing more money into outdated technology. Meanwhile the cost and quality of new interfaces continues to improve dramatically, powered by the scale economies of consumer audio.

Really the best justification for arguing in favor of these mods is enticing someone to buy your old interface off of you for top dollar and have it modded and think they are coming out ahead. That way you get to put that money plus the money you might have spent on a mod into a new device that will far exceed the potential of the old one. Too bad for the other guy of course.

4) I think it's our responsibility to call bullspit on crap we see online, as we see it. Online forums must not become havens of hucksters and shills, however subtly (and even innocently) they may operate, if online forums are to have value. But of course people making legitimate products aren't going to be the type that hound online forums looking to make money off the unsuspecting: they naturally have faith that their products will speak for themselves. And it's just too tedious to go around debunking the crap people get all breathless about all the time. A handful of deluded fanatics will call me on this and I'll throw my hands up and walk away.

So go ahead and waste all your money and fund the development of effective marketing practices and ineffective products that people convince themselves "make a huge difference, dude. trust me."

[invinco]

Fascinating. Are you entirely convinced that much of the positive attention Black Lion has been receiving on this forum is due to one or more "shills", as you call them?

I have to admit that it's difficult to trust the opinions of those who have had experience with Black Lion's hardware, considering that they will understandably try their hardest to justify their own choices and purchases. On the other hand, to dismiss all user testimony as psychological self-gratification would defeat the purpose of visiting a gear-oriented online forum in the first place.

Unfortunately I seem to have missed some backstory here... you are saying that Black Lion are not legitimate manufacturers because they make use of shills to sell their products and services. Admittedly I'm not particularly adept at spotting shills or distinguishing them from "satisfied" (or "insecure and desperately seeking to protect their bruised egos in the light of money wasted" as you might say) customers.
On the other hand your tone would imply that you don't believe there is any difference.

In any case, a number of technical experts on the subject seem to be convinced that syncing a low-end converter to a high-end clock will have either no effect or a detrimental effect on sound quality.
On the other hand, it seems a number of engineers/users have taken the opposite standpoint.
The point of question for me is that Dan Lavry and Bob Katz have stated that an external clock will only improve the situation if your converter is defective to begin with. Their idea of "defective" might simply be the same as poor/budget design on a consumer level. Haven't read their thoughts on the motu 828mkii in particular, though I'm sure it wasn't made with the best possible components.

Assuming that the theory regarding "sunk" cost marketing is at all correct, one has to wonder why Black Lion has taken the plunge into actual hardware design, factoring in extra costs such as chassis and power supply construction. They are not stating in the microclock's literature that it will "improve" the sound of any given converter... I suppose hype has taken care of that marketing aspect for them.
But why did they discontinue their internal clock modification? Technically speaking this should have much, much more of a positive effect than an external clock, and it stands to reason that it might even cost Black Lion less money.

Anyways... if the 30-day guarantee stands, then I'm just glad to have the option of returning the clock if it doesn't suit my purposes.

Originally Posted by peeder

1) What is this doing in "High End?" Anyway, since it's here...

2) External clocks only help with synchronization issues with multiple otherwise independent devices. They do not improve the sound of converters, other than in very specific (and increasingly rare) circumstances. There are numerous reasons for the mythology of jitter that Bob Katz' book covers quite well. For nearly everyone with fewer than, say, four or five digital devices that must run simultaneously, a dedicated clock is a waste of money and has a better than even chance of decreasing sound quality.

Your best bet is to have your most critical ADC as master during tracking, your most critical DAC as master during mixdown, and for the remainder of your digital work, to stay ITB, where there is no clock. Signal can interfere with clock, so use word clock cable when available.

3) The Black Lion company runs on a common psychological pitfall called "the sunk-cost trap." This is also known as "throwing good money after bad." People feel they need to make good on their existing investment in an interface...they are loathe to take a loss on it, since interfaces are basically disposable like 1GB hard drives and CRT monitors. So everyone dearly wants to believe that somehow they will come out ahead plowing more money into outdated technology. Meanwhile the cost and quality of new interfaces continues to improve dramatically, powered by the scale economies of consumer audio.

Really the best justification for arguing in favor of these mods is enticing someone to buy your old interface off of you for top dollar and have it modded and think they are coming out ahead. That way you get to put that money plus the money you might have spent on a mod into a new device that will far exceed the potential of the old one. Too bad for the other guy of course.

4) I think it's our responsibility to call bullspit on crap we see online, as we see it. Online forums must not become havens of hucksters and shills, however subtly (and even innocently) they may operate, if online forums are to have value. But of course people making legitimate products aren't going to be the type that hound online forums looking to make money off the unsuspecting: they naturally have faith that their products will speak for themselves. And it's just too tedious to go around debunking the crap people get all breathless about all the time. A handful of deluded fanatics will call me on this and I'll throw my hands up and walk away.

So go ahead and waste all your money and fund the development of effective marketing practices and ineffective products that people convince themselves "make a huge difference, dude. trust me."

[Brad McGowan]

I read the Bob Katz book as well and it does say that the best clock source will be the internal one. But Bob is not referring to cheap prosumer gear like MOTU stuff. The MOTU clock is absolute crap. Everyone knows it. That gear is designed to hit a price point. I would wager that anyone with two ears and a brain between them can easily hear the improvement made to the MOTU converters by a) syncing their MOTU gear to the clock of a higher end unit and/or b) upgrading the analog stages of the converters with the BLA mods. I've had my Traveler modded. I own a Mytek 8x192 as well. I did extensive tests pre and post mod with extreme rigor and the sound clips I made were actually up on the BLA site for a while.

It would be great if MOTU just hired Matt and implemented his design tweaks into their gear. In the meantime though if you get a used 828 on Ebay for $500 and a get the BLA mods for $300 then you're coming out way ahead of anything in the $1k-$2k price range. Granted the Aurora is a good deal but you do need to buy a Lynx AES card or similar to use it.

Even Slipperman has BLA modded MOTU units I think.

Brad

[Jules]

Originally Posted by peeder

I think it's our responsibility to call bullspit on crap we see online, as we see it. Online forums must not become havens of hucksters and shills, however subtly (and even innocently) they may operate, if online forums are to have value.

The moderators of this forum are keen to get reports of shills / bogus posters - if you do have such info - please alert one of the moderators, who will be happy to look into it.

[invinco]

Thank you, this is precisely what I was wondering about. Lavry and Katz seem to have stated previously that clocking your converters externally will only help if your converters are broken to begin with... but I think if those guys had to work with a MOTU unit for a while then they'd come to the conclusion that MOTU's converters pretty much ARE broken.

It's still bugging me that Black Lion seems to no longer offer the internal clock mod for MOTU. Obviously this should bolster sales of their external clock, but as far as audio quality goes I have a hunch that the external clock is an inferior solution.

What's weirder is that they seem to still be offering to replace the internal clock in the 002 (maybe because 002 doesn't have BNC in, so their external clock would be useless?) and possibly the 003 though I'm not positive about that one.

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

I read the Bob Katz book as well and it does say that the best clock source will be the internal one. But Bob is not referring to cheap prosumer gear like MOTU stuff. The MOTU clock is absolute crap. Everyone knows it. That gear is designed to hit a price point. I would wager that anyone with two ears and a brain between them can easily hear the improvement made to the MOTU converters by a) syncing their MOTU gear to the clock of a higher end unit and/or b) upgrading the analog stages of the converters with the BLA mods. I've had my Traveler modded. I own a Mytek 8x192 as well. I did extensive tests pre and post mod with extreme rigor and the sound clips I made were actually up on the BLA site for a while.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by peeder

3) The Black Lion company runs on a common psychological pitfall called "the sunk-cost trap." This is also known as "throwing good money after bad."

So if a guy wants better sound quality, he can either spend $300 on the mod, or throw away $500 by selling the motu, and then spend $3k on an Aurora? What if that guy skipped the Aurora, spent the $2.7K ($300 goes to the motu mod) on a couple of better mics or pres? Wouldn't this combination produce better sound? At some point, we must look at the big picture, rather than just one isolated component. For a guy trying to work within a budget, spending $3k on an Aurora, and skimping on the rest of the recording chain, would be a perfect example of 'throwing good money after bad'.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

I read the Bob Katz book as well and it does say that the best clock source will be the internal one. But Bob is not referring to cheap prosumer gear like MOTU stuff. The MOTU clock is absolute crap. Everyone knows it. That gear is designed to hit a price point. I would wager that anyone with two ears and a brain between them can easily hear the improvement made to the MOTU converters by a) syncing their MOTU gear to the clock of a higher end unit and/or b) upgrading the analog stages of the converters with the BLA mods. I've had my Traveler modded. I own a Mytek 8x192 as well. I did extensive tests pre and post mod with extreme rigor and the sound clips I made were actually up on the BLA site for a while.

It would be great if MOTU just hired Matt and implemented his design tweaks into their gear. In the meantime though if you get a used 828 on Ebay for $500 and a get the BLA mods for $300 then you're coming out way ahead of anything in the $1k-$2k price range. Granted the Aurora is a good deal but you do need to buy a Lynx AES card or similar to use it.

Even Slipperman has BLA modded MOTU units I think.

Brad

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that supplying an external clock source removes the internal clock from the picture.

In reality, trying to sync to an external clock source will likely make a bad implementation deliver even less accurate timing and produce more jitter, as it struggles to sync itself to the external source.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by peeder

1) What is this doing in "High End?" Anyway, since it's here...

2) External clocks only help with synchronization issues with multiple otherwise independent devices. They do not improve the sound of converters, other than in very specific (and increasingly rare) circumstances. There are numerous reasons for the mythology of jitter that Bob Katz' book covers quite well. For nearly everyone with fewer than, say, four or five digital devices that must run simultaneously, a dedicated clock is a waste of money and has a better than even chance of decreasing sound quality.

Your best bet is to have your most critical ADC as master during tracking, your most critical DAC as master during mixdown, and for the remainder of your digital work, to stay ITB, where there is no clock. Signal can interfere with clock, so use word clock cable when available.

3) The Black Lion company runs on a common psychological pitfall called "the sunk-cost trap." This is also known as "throwing good money after bad." People feel they need to make good on their existing investment in an interface...they are loathe to take a loss on it, since interfaces are basically disposable like 1GB hard drives and CRT monitors. So everyone dearly wants to believe that somehow they will come out ahead plowing more money into outdated technology. Meanwhile the cost and quality of new interfaces continues to improve dramatically, powered by the scale economies of consumer audio.

Really the best justification for arguing in favor of these mods is enticing someone to buy your old interface off of you for top dollar and have it modded and think they are coming out ahead. That way you get to put that money plus the money you might have spent on a mod into a new device that will far exceed the potential of the old one. Too bad for the other guy of course.

4) I think it's our responsibility to call bullspit on crap we see online, as we see it. Online forums must not become havens of hucksters and shills, however subtly (and even innocently) they may operate, if online forums are to have value. But of course people making legitimate products aren't going to be the type that hound online forums looking to make money off the unsuspecting: they naturally have faith that their products will speak for themselves. And it's just too tedious to go around debunking the crap people get all breathless about all the time. A handful of deluded fanatics will call me on this and I'll throw my hands up and walk away.

So go ahead and waste all your money and fund the development of effective marketing practices and ineffective products that people convince themselves "make a huge difference, dude. trust me."

Totally disagree. Take a $300-$600 interface, but a top notch clock, psu, converter chips and analog section,(and even some low noise pres) for $500 or so dollars? How are you going to beat that with a new interface? You aren't. There is nothing in that category pricewise where the company didn't cheap out in some way.
Note I don't own any of the BLA products, but I've heard them and there is no way to get that level of sound without spending a bundle more money.

[peeder]

No, I don't know of anyone specifically acting as shills. And it's quite OK to be a "fanboi". You could easily accuse me of being a fanboi for the Digi 003, or the ADAM S3A, or the Senn MD-441. I'm not a shill because I'm not in cahootz...I don't get anything from any of these companies in return for my fandom.

So I used the word "shill" for effect. There are certainly hucksters around here of course but most often they offer at least 25% helpful info to offset the sales effort, and they are mostly clearly labeled as sales staff.

It is 100% AOK to make artistic decisions with your opinions, and it's 100% AOK to share your opinions and experiences online. This medium is an interesting blend of art and science. The critical thing is that the art doesn't have to suffer for the science or vice-versa: when both are done correctly, they benefit each other greatly.

My main issue is that there is outright misleading information out there that people here (the "hucksters") are making money off of and know full well they really should be correcting. They are always around to help people buy things that won't help them and I can almost hear them snickering to themselves when people declare "I heard a profound improvement!" when none was in fact possible as a result of the part they sold and may have come from simply re-seating cables or something. That's illegitimate. It's not the way business is done online. Online is the antidote for that crap, provided people are willing to confront it.

It's very unpleasant to confront it, because there's always the risk that you're wrong... I may in fact be wrong about BLA mods. I wouldn't buy one myself to test it. I would love for there to be a "Consumer Reports" for audio that took these scientific aspects of the business and published full reviews. Certainly a given person might prefer a lower-fidelity sound to a higher one, or to have distortion in a different place. But when we're dealing with something that doesn't hit air we can exactly characterize it in comparison to other things, and find truth in audio.

I guess no one does because it's not important enough and anyone who cares enough is able to make their own decisions just fine. But it's frustrating to me because it's an inefficiency and inequity in the market...the money is flowing in wrong directions in places and rewarding the wrong behaviors. Maybe I'm too idealistic about it, or too obsessive.

Anyway, the point about clock has been made, thankfully, and as far as comparing the other mods, compare them to recent-issue interfaces in their price range. Take the M-Audio Firewire 1814, for instance. It sounds better than the 002 from the samples I've heard. I wouldn't be in any way surprised if it sounds better than *any* of the current BLA modded interfaces. Compare the street price. Then look at the RME boxes for even better than that.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by peeder

My main issue is that there is outright misleading information out there ....... I may in fact be wrong about BLA mods. I wouldn't buy one myself to test it.

I agree with you. There is misleading information out there, coming from people with no firsthand knowledge of a product. If you've never compared a BLA modded piece to a comparably priced unit, how are you qualified to dismiss the BLA mod as crap on a stick?
I have a BLA modded motu interface, and even my clients noticed the before and after difference. So, at least I'm qualifed to give an informed opinion on the subject. Hopefully, my informed opinion will help to balance out the misleading information you so disdain, but also perpetuate.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by theblue1

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that supplying an external clock source removes the internal clock from the picture.

In reality, trying to sync to an external clock source will likely make a bad implementation deliver even less accurate timing and produce more jitter, as it struggles to sync itself to the external source.

Have you actually heard a MOTU Firewire interface clocked to something like a Mytek? The difference is pretty audible. Come over and I'll do the A/B for you. I'll give you one guess which clock source yields the best sounding audio.

There needs to be a huge sticky posted someone that says "don't dis something until you've tried it firsthand".

Brad

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Have you actually heard a MOTU Firewire interface clocked to something like a Mytek? The difference is pretty audible. Come over and I'll do the A/B for you. I'll give you one guess which clock source yields the best sounding audio.

There needs to be a huge sticky posted someone that says "don't dis something until you've tried it firsthand".

You're one of the cable fanbois IIRC. Go ahead and post shootouts to proove your points. Provide enough information to make them 100% repeatable by others. Develop protocols that use nulling etc. to clearly demonstrate the differences on test tones and program material without relying on subjective listening tests. We should all know by now that test subjects will display a clear preference for one of a set of bit-identical files, that effect has to be corrected for.

You might lose religion if you do. I don't know if that'll make this more or less fun for you. And I think that's the ultimate reason why people don't press these issues: this is all about having fun, and at some level, you're always fooling yourself into having fun.

Although I have an inkling I might have more fun if all the dough always went to the best options, and the various manufacturers had to compete for value that much harder.

[invinco]

There doesn't seem to be any end in sight for this debate.

The definitive technical answer seems to be <b>no</b>, there is no reason why syncing a low-end convertor/interface to a high-end master clock would help anything.

Yet people continue to report an improvement in sound quality. The difference would appear to be purely subjective. Maybe as previously stated it is simply due to secondhand aspects of installing the clock, the adjustment of cables and the like.
Or people could simply be hearing artifacts created by jitter, and actually finding them pleasant.

It should be apparent that a large number of people <i>are</i> in fact under the mistaken impression that an external clock will bypass your device's internal clock. I'm not sure how this misinformation started spreading, but if anything along the lines of "shilling" has occurred I'd blame Apogee or Mytek sooner than Black Lion. (Particularly Apogee... it seems like nobody found word clocks to be all that exciting until Apogee decided they were. And I suppose Lavry has inadvertently contributed to the hype by attempting to debunk them.)

It's kind of sad... Black Lion was really my only hope of ditching the MOTU's weak internal clock, but with their internal mod discontinued I'm apparently stuck with it. I suppose I'll move up to a lynx someday and the 828 will be relegated to headphone mixer duty.

Still I'll give the microclock a shot and learn if it has any of that subjective effect that people have cited from using mytek clocks, big ben, etc.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Have you actually heard a MOTU Firewire interface clocked to something like a Mytek? The difference is pretty audible. Come over and I'll do the A/B for you. I'll give you one guess which clock source yields the best sounding audio.

There needs to be a huge sticky posted someone that says "don't dis something until you've tried it firsthand".

Brad

Read what I wrote.

I'm not "dissing" anything.

I'm talking about the basic facts of ADC operation.


If you like a given sound (or a piece of gear, for that matter) -- how can I argue with what you like? I can't.

[Both Dan Lavry and Digidesign (in their own white paper on clocking issues in multiple ADC rigs) have suggested that if people like the quality of conversion produced by external clocking a standalone ADC, that they may, in fact, prefer the sound of jitter. And why not? People like the sound of tape and it's certainly less accurate by most meaningful measures.]


I'm only talking about basic operational realities. And because of the way ADCs are designed, synching to an external clock is going to decrease internal timing accuracy.

(It is, of course, necessary to synchronize multiple ADCs, but in simpler rigs you'll likely get the best results setting the "lead" ADC's internal clock as the source and using a properly terminated daisy chain.)

[Schmeckitup]

As far as I know, the Microclock was developed in part because the MOTU clocks are so inconsistent even between revisions of the same products (different parts, different setups) that there was no way he could keep up with internal mods. If you like his analog mods, then go ahead with that and get the external clock of your choice (which might just be the Microclock).
I have to say - the BLA customer service is excellent. He doesn't have time for long theoretical conversations, but he is very well informed and willing to explain very precisely what it is they do. Also, I had a problem with shipping damage in my unit and he immediately sent me a UPS label without the endless interrogation and suspicion I usually face from a manufacturer/tech shop....
g

[Gear Tramp]

Peeder, you do not know what you are talking about.

Your long-winded, and highly opinionated posts (in this thread, and many others, I might add) do not help anyone. You are not as knowledgable as you try to act on this board.

Come on, 003 Fanboi. I'd like to hear your productions up against Brad's.

You may think you know everything because you've studied a lot of text. But reading and listening are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Go back to yer little 003 Einstein, I mean Peeder.

P.S. Sorry to patronize you, little brother, but lizard see, lizard do.