Black Lion Microclock

[starfighter]

Originally Posted by peeder

Or that any beneficial effect would be even better with a combination you might think was worse when you looked at it. I.e. clocking your fancy converter to your cheapo would sound better overall. Etc.

oh, really? So there's actually a chance that something might sound better, or at least different when you actually listen to it rather than just reading a paper? Hmmmm....

m

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by puff

YES! Thank you, Max! IMO, it has to do with the type of jitter (whether random or deterministic), and the frequency band it occupies. I think that an amplitude-based jitter of certain harmonics (such as the excitation of a harmonic) within the clock signal can actually have a pleasing impact on the sonic characteristic of the sound if it's done correctly.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

Hey Matt....Check your PM...Thanks!

[jazztone]

Anyone clocking a Fireface with the microclock? Describe the differences. Thanks

[chetatkinsdiet]

...my head hurts...

I never tend to read these techy threads, but since I'm very interested in purchasing not only BLA's new clock, but get their upgrades to my two MOTU 1224 boxes. So, after reading all the counter arguments here where lab type tests are being asked for, it just made me think about all the Chinese mics and such that were hitting about 5-10 years ago. They all had specs that were "the same as a Neumann" or whatever gear it was they were trying to emulate. We all soon found out that this was not the case. Whitepapers can lie.

later,

m

[dfzero]

*noob's first posting... beware*

First off I should note that I decided to mod my 828mk2 with BLA. They will give you a discount on the microclock with a modding, so why not?

In my mission to find out why not, my research led me here.
Thanks to peeder for riling up matt and max, I got what I think is my answer.

Perhaps I will get monkey-stomped for this over-simplified interpretation but here goes what I gained from this thread:

The master clock is not really making your a-->d conversion jitter-free, but rather "tuning the jitter" to produce better results. Thickening freq $a, making freq $b more prominent, etc... inducing or massaging the more pleasant harmonics into the recorded signal.

Like how one of the many touted preamps will color the tone, evoking characteristics like "punchier bass", "clearer this", "wider that", and most importantly "better".

Basically, syncing my modded (or un-modded) motu 828mk2 to one of these hyper-cool, tuned master clocks will alter the converted audio in a way that is generally interpreted as "better".

Ah well perhaps "better" is all psychological and based on external feedback playing on internal insecurities, but then if 20 out of 25 _other_ people say that it sounds better, and the 5 say no difference, waste of money;
** 0 people are saying that it sounds worse **

One of my goals as a producer is to make the music brought to me to record and mix appeal to as many listeners as possible.

Ha! No brainer...
---
to: info@blacklionaudio.com
subj: Re: Schedule a motu 828mk2 upgrade

Hi please add the microclock to my order!
---

For context I should also add that a friend of mine (the local master of electronics) said to not waste my time with the mod, save up and invest in quality gear, rather than "tricking out my tricycle".

[retrosynth]

You want pink or blue streamers for your tricycle?

:)

[louieo]

Hello, looks like it's been a while since this thread was active, but I was researching the BLA microclock recently and the discussion in this forum was helpful. It seems that the conclusion people finally agreed (or disagreed) on was that the microclock made things sound "different," and subjectively better to some. What's odd though is that I haven't seen any A/B type audio samples posted here or elsewhere to support this one way or the other. So I decided to post some (at archive.org on account of their free disk and bandwidth):

Internet Archive: Details: bastards-clock-test-A
Internet Archive: Details: bastards-clock-test-B

Here's the setup. I have an unmodded MOTU 828mkII, and Cakewalk Sonar 4.0.4. I recorded this song 24bit 96K, with the internal clock. I'm using the MOTU's 8 analog outs to feed an old Tascam M-320B console for summing/external effects.. note that there are 15 tracks to this song so I had to choose some tracks for internal summing (like the drums) but some other tracks (vocals, bass) have their own channel on the console. I routed the stereo mains of the console back into the motu/sonar and hit record. I did this once with the motu set to internal clock, and then I did it again set to the microclock. These files are the downconverted result, 16bit 44.1KHz at 192Kbps mp3. Can you tell which is the internal clock and which is the microclock?

Some things to note: firstly, since I didn't record originally with the microclock, some might say this is not a valid test. However, by using an external analog console for summing I'm relying on the motu for one additional D/A conversion and another A/D, as opposed to internal summing. If the clock is going to affect the performance of A/D/A conversion as advertised, we should notice it here.

Secondly, I mixed the song using the internal clock, and changed nothing for the external clock mixdown. If the sound quality is radically affected by the clock source then that could affect my mixing decisions. If this is the case one might notice that one file has a better mix but worse sound and vice versa for the other file.. Personally, I don't notice this. In fact, I'm not sure I notice any difference between these two at all.

Thirdly, I'd like to do this again with a different song (one with kick drum this time) but with three files, one summed "in the box," and the other two with external summing but the different clock sources. Mixing/summing via the console is useful to me when using outboard effects but I'm not at all convinced it results in improved sound quality.

And finally, experiments don't mean anything until they're reproduced. If you have an external clock for DA/mixing purposes, as opposed to syncing a bunch of digital gear, then this is an easy thing to test. Let's hear some internal/external clock A/Bs already.

Louis

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by louieo

Hello, looks like it's been a while since this thread was active, but I was researching the BLA microclock recently and the discussion in this forum was helpful. It seems that the conclusion people finally agreed (or disagreed) on was that the microclock made things sound "different," and subjectively better to some. What's odd though is that I haven't seen any A/B type audio samples posted here or elsewhere to support this one way or the other. So I decided to post some (at archive.org on account of their free disk and bandwidth):

Internet Archive: Details: bastards-clock-test-A
Internet Archive: Details: bastards-clock-test-B

Here's the setup. I have an unmodded MOTU 828mkII, and Cakewalk Sonar 4.0.4. I recorded this song 24bit 96K, with the internal clock. I'm using the MOTU's 8 analog outs to feed an old Tascam M-320B console for summing/external effects.. note that there are 15 tracks to this song so I had to choose some tracks for internal summing (like the drums) but some other tracks (vocals, bass) have their own channel on the console. I routed the stereo mains of the console back into the motu/sonar and hit record. I did this once with the motu set to internal clock, and then I did it again set to the microclock. These files are the downconverted result, 16bit 44.1KHz at 192Kbps mp3. Can you tell which is the internal clock and which is the microclock?

Some things to note: firstly, since I didn't record originally with the microclock, some might say this is not a valid test. However, by using an external analog console for summing I'm relying on the motu for one additional D/A conversion and another A/D, as opposed to internal summing. If the clock is going to affect the performance of A/D/A conversion as advertised, we should notice it here.

Secondly, I mixed the song using the internal clock, and changed nothing for the external clock mixdown. If the sound quality is radically affected by the clock source then that could affect my mixing decisions. If this is the case one might notice that one file has a better mix but worse sound and vice versa for the other file.. Personally, I don't notice this. In fact, I'm not sure I notice any difference between these two at all.

Thirdly, I'd like to do this again with a different song (one with kick drum this time) but with three files, one summed "in the box," and the other two with external summing but the different clock sources. Mixing/summing via the console is useful to me when using outboard effects but I'm not at all convinced it results in improved sound quality.

And finally, experiments don't mean anything until they're reproduced. If you have an external clock for DA/mixing purposes, as opposed to syncing a bunch of digital gear, then this is an easy thing to test. Let's hear some internal/external clock A/Bs already.

Louis

Louis,

Thanks for posting. Cool song.

Any chance you can put up some wavs? You don't even need the full song, just the first 30 seconds would work.

[louieo]

Hello Norman,

that's a good idea, here are some wavs:

Internet Archive: Details: bastards-partial-clock-test-A
Internet Archive: Details: bastards-partial-clock-test-B

I forgot the fades on the second one but you'll get the idea. I don't know if archive.org defaults to an mp3 in their "player" on that site or to the file I uploaded, but you'll see wav as one of the download options.

Louis

[ghetto3jon]

very interesting, so which is which?

[louieo]

Do you have a guess? The experiment is to see if anyone can tell which is which without knowing in advance. According to what I've read in this thread, the differences should be "night and day." One of these should have more defined highs and lows, a "wider soundstage," and a bunch of other good stuff. If it's not obvious from actually listening to examples, then either I'm not using the clock right or the benefits of buying one are imaginary.

Anyone on this thread who has reported "night and day" type results using an external clock (and who isn't a clock manufacturer): please post some blind A/B type examples. Science, or psychology, or whatever, can contribute to the debate better than a flame war.

[ghetto3jon]

i'm just checking on some cheap cans, but it's not "night and day" for me. maybe studio monitors would reveal something else...B might sound slightly better. but it's slight, and it could be psychosomatic. so i suppose my guess is B is the microclock.

[DONNX]

I can definitely hear a difference by using a microclock and using the internal clock of protools. Everything that was smeared, is more focused and tighter sounding.

Whatever its doing, its worth the $300 I spent.

[karmicrevolution]

I have recently purchased a Micro Clock. A small thing to do for what it's really worth. I have done a lot of research on the Micro Clock and have read a lot of the night and day stuff but believe me on this, with two MOTU HD192's with the BLA Clock against internal clocking and there is a small subtle difference for the better when using the BLA MC. I never expected big night and day improvements.

I have hurt my hearing during my live sound stints and the Walkman in the 80's didn't help either. But I wasn't looking for big night and day improvements. I have read a lot of Matt's opinions and the facts about what he sells. Those of you who do know about external clocking and jitter should understand well enough to know that it's an endless topic. Far two much debating for a well worth it $400 piece. I've paid twice as much for mics that I barely even go to while recording anymore. And this piece is in my chain all of the time.
When I started purchasing gear for my studio, I went and purchased a core system and have been upgrading ever since. Small subtle improvements in sound quality and workflow was all I ever experienced in any purchase. I love it when a saleperson always tell me that I'll hear a big night and day improvement in this or that always right before I whip out the credit card. I've never heard it. I have heard differences in quality and better improved frequency response but never that wow effect. It's cumulative. You purchase gear and over time, you notice an improvement. Well, I do anyways. I've heard the A/B difference between a Big Ben and the Micro Clock and they're subtle differences to me and I liked the BLA piece better IMO. That's why I purchased it. I don't have 10k in funds to drop in a moments notice so I have to make my purchases count. I don't have a bunch of Neve this or that or a giant SSL console to work with.

So I make my decisions carefully and do research accordingly. BLA is doing a great thing. Take the shot and spend the small money before you turn around and find they come to their senses and charge ya for what it's really worth. I also like to read all of that tech stuff and I try and put it into practice whenever I can but at the end of the day, I have to record, mix and master stuff and put my head in the art of it all. I have worked in some big studios and found that you can have 3 million dollars in gear and it won't do a damn bit of good if the engineer doesn't have his head in the game or even good ears to do so. Support the small guy who is just looking to improve something that should have been done to begin with for the money your spending on it anyways. I'm a skeptic too for that matter and I try to research something if I don't understand what it is I am being told. BLA has proven their worth and are selling it for dirt cheap IMO. Some of you talk about quantifiable tests and if you prove it, I'll let ya have my $400. Cheapskates are all you are. Morons too. There is proof and it's out there for all to see and still the ego gets in front of the pocketbook. I'd rather spend the money hearing even less of a difference but knowing that I'm supporting the small and honest business owner. Get your head out of the science once in a while and enjoy the art of recording. Have a little trust once in while or go work in a lab. There are others out there that will try and take your money and run but have a little trust in the audio community because someones gonna cry foul when that happens and post it on a forum like this. My opinion is we should buy tons of BLA gear and mods. Why not? It works, it's proven, they're honest and knowledgable and they care about quality. That's more than can be said for some.

OK. I'm done

[vrockob]

I am a fan of black lion I had my 002 modded and was extremely happy with it. Now I primarily use logic and bought a Presonus and though I am surprisingly impressed with it I was wondering if the Black Lion micro clock will make a significant difference in the overall sound? Thanks in advance for any input.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by vrockob

I am a fan of black lion I had my 002 modded and was extremely happy with it. Now I primarily use logic and bought a Presonus and though I am surprisingly impressed with it I was wondering if the Black Lion micro clock will make a significant difference in the overall sound? Thanks in advance for any input.

It helped my PreSonus LT when I clocked to it. I don't know which PreSonus you have tho. I think the clock, converters, etc. is supposed to be better on the newer PreSonus stuff, so the BLA clock may not appear as helpful, as they say you hear less improvement on better designed clocks/converters......

[vrockob]

I have the Firestudio Project.

[Jon Nolan]

....listening on earbuds. they definitely sound different. "B" sounds less veiled to me, and clearer. I think that's the BLA clock...

[louieo]

I was hoping this experiment would generate some A/B samples from other people with external word clocks, but it looks like this thread is pretty much dead, so I'll finish up. The two of you who guessed "B" were right, that was the microclock. Counting my friends who guessed offline the results are about even. Myself, I've tried hard to hear a difference and I can't really, but when mixing "in the box" I do think that's better than either A or B, so I decided to go that route with my setup. Hats off to Jon Nolan and ghetto3jon: let me know if you're in the market for a used BLA clock, I'll sell you mine.

[Scott Reiber]

I haven't read through much of this thread so if I say something someone else already said, I apologize. This is a long post.. sorry in advance.

I had Black Lion mod my Motu 896 HD recently and I also purchased the micro clock and their "high end" word clock cable (they have two different ones that they sell) They told me that I WOULD hear a difference in the two cables so I decided to go with their best one. When I received my order (the modded 896 and micro clock) Black Lion forgot to ship me the high end word clock cable. I called them and they of course apologized and said they would get one right out to me. I am a rather impatient person when it comes to waiting for gear so I decided to go to Guitar Center and buy a word clock cable to use in the meantime. I bought a Monster one for like $40.

Well when I plugged it all in and really listened I heard a nice difference in everything I played. The Motu "blanket over the speakers" sound was gone. It even sounded better than my Apogee Duet (which is a great portable interface)

I don't really use the MOTU Pre's at all (Love my Chandler and Manley Vari- Mu chain), but the modded pres really do sound much better.

Just when I thought my system couldn't sound any better.....
When I finally received the Black Lion word clock cable and plugged it in the sound of my system really blew my head off. Their cable really makes a huge difference. So to anyone that buys their micro clock. BUY THEIR HIGH END WORD CLOCK CABLE!!!! IT IS AMAZING.


Cheers,
Scott Reiber
Baltimore, Maryland

[_barnee]

flag

[ickefes]

I have a Micro Clock mkI and i hear nada difference. I tried a voltmeter and see if that might find some strange results. The Multiface II WC out sent 2.75 DC volt and 71mA while the Micro Clock almost got no readings. Weird that my Multiface II syncs to it though. I have sent BLA a mail and I hope to get an answer because this thing is useless to me. Hate to have payed about $550 for it. I also hadto send it back to BLA when recieved it since it did not work at all. No devices found any signal from it.

I really hope to hear from BLA asap and to find a solution.

Edit:

The readings I got are:
Focusrite ISA828 WC out: 1.87 DC volt, 15.6mA
RME Multiface II WC out: 2.45 DC volt, 71 mA
BLA Micro Clock mkI WC out: Just some jumps between 0 and 1 at all readings.

Someone who can explain why my reading is like nada on the Micro Clock and still my Multiface II sync from it but I hear no improvement?

Regards