Why do people pass off pop music as though its less...

[Tempest19]

work?

This probably doesn't belong here but whatever.

I was just reading a thread where somebody asked about Nsync production, then JT was mentioned and a few people said his songs were shit.

How come people always refer to songs recorded by bands as proper songs?

Its funny too cos I was reading something else about concerts especially pop ones which are over produced.

I saw JT in concert last night and its the best £50 I've ever spent.

From my personal experience when I go into university and play one of my songs people including the lecturers seem to brush them off. As if to say yeah thats alright for what it is. Then another student will play a track which sounds terrible in every way and the majority including the lecturers will give them nothing but praise.

They're all from a rock background. Pop and Rock people always seem to clash.

A good song is a good song. The guy in the other thread said he'd challenge anybody to write a song that could keep up with anything from Justified. I write and write and I've never got close. Regardless of budget, somebody has to write those songs. It's not easy.

Anyways, not much point to this thread, just it would be nice to see people give pop a little more credit.

Thanks,

Chris

[luctellier]

I agree with you, nowadays, it's becoming harder and harder everyday to write a good AND original song that doesn't sound like any other previously released.

Most of the lyrics subject, metaphores, guitar chords and beat sounds like deja-vu because there is soooo many songs released. I always admire an artist that break-through and sounds fresh-new.

So many factors in that big pop packadge... the "image", the sounds, the production, the "voice" of the artist", the promotion, music videoclip, etc... So many things that sculpt our vision of a "song". But everyone will agree on that: a good song will always be good song.

I agree with you on the fact that any song writer or artist that creates a good "original" song deserve recognition.

[jchas]

Mainly because pop tends to be written around a very simple 2-chord structure and tends to have very little lyrical value (3-minute loops of a neat vocal hook).
Of course this is a pretty generalized statement and probably only pertains to 95% of pop music - but it is the norm.
It isn't to say that the production, engineering, and such isn't well done, or that the singer totally sucks - only that it's far easier to sing/scat/play around a very simple chord structure than it is around a complex progression. That being said - find a jazz officienado that thinks that ANY form of rock is good music...
At least pop has a leg up on most rap where single chord progressions are the norm - and no melody/singing is required.

[warhead]

There are only 12 notes.

The english language hasn't expanded much since the 1950's.

It's hard to be original these days, as stated by luctellier.

The music my 12 year old daughter listens to, in my opinion, lacks originality entirely.

She loves it!

War

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by Tempest19

work?

This probably doesn't belong here but whatever.

I was just reading a thread where somebody asked about Nsync production, then JT was mentioned and a few people said his songs were shit.

How come people always refer to songs recorded by bands as proper songs?

Its funny too cos I was reading something else about concerts especially pop ones which are over produced.

I saw JT in concert last night and its the best £50 I've ever spent.

From my personal experience when I go into university and play one of my songs people including the lecturers seem to brush them off. As if to say yeah thats alright for what it is. Then another student will play a track which sounds terrible in every way and the majority including the lecturers will give them nothing but praise.

They're all from a rock background. Pop and Rock people always seem to clash.

A good song is a good song. The guy in the other thread said he'd challenge anybody to write a song that could keep up with anything from Justified. I write and write and I've never got close. Regardless of budget, somebody has to write those songs. It's not easy.

Anyways, not much point to this thread, just it would be nice to see people give pop a little more credit.

Thanks,

Chris

Because these more recent "pop" groups tend not to be artists/musicians/songwriters, but rather pretty faces with occasionally decent talent manufactured into a look/package by a label or promoter, who play other peoples' stuff, and it's generally more "fun" than "deep".

Most people serious about music in any way, either as musicians or as dedicated listeners (at least from my experience in the 'States), don't usually have a very high tolerance for cheesiness (unless it is done with tongue firmly planted in cheek), and this can be an obvious problem with regard to pop.

That said, some of the best production going on today is in this particular genre. Which makes sense, as it takes some real skills to make nice-sounding records out of some of the "artists" they have to work with. Max Martin for example. I'm not a fan of most of the groups he produces, but I can really appreciate what he's able to do.

[Tempest19]

I still find that hard to comprehend.

Their songs just have something else.

I try to write songs everyday around a very simple chord progression, or make a couple chord beat and try to get that catchy hook but its just nothing like those songs in question. Even if it was produced to an extremely high standard.

I mean, with the concert last night, of course there was a lot of backing tracks but at the very end he went off stage and came back on to play 'All Over Again'

No tracks this time, he played piano with the band, the band stopped and he sang the last few lines solo.

But yeah, its gonna be hard to write songs that haven't been heard before. Even when the 'concept' of the song is terrible. 3 chords in a loop with a bad talentless singer sounds so good.

Recently say a song such as Avril Girlfriend may have a terrible concept but its light years ahead of most amateur and unsigned artists I've ever heard. The songs are always something else. I don't care what anybody says. Its not easy to write a song or produce a song anything like that.

Everybody is always talking about 'making real music man!'

I could care less, music is music. I'm hoping to make music for my career, if it doesn't sell, what would be the point. You can be as politically correct as you like but just staying true to music and writing a proper song, if it doesn't sell, what have you accomplished.

Thats not to say that writing a JT style song would be forced to make money. Quite the opposite.

[luctellier]

And then again, I can predict that this thread is going to be BIG!

jchas said: "At least pop has a leg up on most rap where single chord progressions are the norm - and no melody/singing is required".

There will always be arguments between different music genre because the reason why people like a certain type of music is simply different.

For example, I personnaly listen to/for:

Pop: Catchy'ness of the song, not much for the lyrics, more for the melodies.
Rock: I listen to it for the drive, the loud sound, catchy chorus, dynamic.
Metal: Technicality, The raw sound, guitar tones, rage, feelings, the solos, etc.
Hip-Hop: The beat, the vibe, the lyrics.
Jazz: The soft side, to relax.

That's why, IMHO, many people listening to metal will never understand why certain people love listening to hip-hop or why Jazz people will never listen to metal... Because they don't connect with the music style and can't relate to the main aspect of those type of music. This is one of my daily frustration... I hate when someone says "this band sucks". If only people would rather say "I don't like this band", things would be much easier. We can't debate about "tastes" but we can debate about opinions.

Just my 2 cents.

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by Spectacle

Because these more recent "pop" groups tend not to be artists/musicians/songwriters, but rather pretty faces with occasionally decent talent manufactured into a look/package by a label or promoter, who play other peoples' stuff, and it's generally more "fun" than "deep".

Most people serious about music in any way, either as musicians or as dedicated listeners (at least from my experience in the 'States), don't usually have a very high tolerance for cheesiness (unless it is done with tongue firmly planted in cheek), and this can be an obvious problem with regard to pop.

That said, some of the best production going on today is in this particular genre. Which makes sense, as it takes some real skills to make nice-sounding records out of some of the "artists" they have to work with. Max Martin for example. I'm not a fan of most of the groups he produces, but I can really appreciate what he's able to do.

See this is the trouble.

And I'll say this without trying to offend anybody. A lot of older men, I'm 20 have this opinion.

All I can say is, I'm not sure JT is marketed for over 40's

People who dont appreciate this music or even a good tune which is 'cheesy' pop I sometimes think are resentful because they're not cashing in on these hit songs.

I'd never say a song has to have real structure and to be 'deep' just to make it a proper song.

This isnt an argument, more so I get annoyed when I put a lot of hard work into a song and I feel my lecturer doesnt give me the credit for it because its not a 'proper' song.

Of course my songs aren't great, but I'm working on it.

[luctellier]

Talking about pop and Avril Lavigne, anyone knew that Avril Lavigne's Girlfriend single is a ripoff from a great powerpop band from the 1970s called The Rubinoos?

Regarding POP music, creating a good catchy (but not cheesy and original) song is an art. An art that only real artist can achieve. That's why when you look at any pop album's credits you see so many names for a single song!

Link to Avril ripoff: Hey Avril, the Rubinoos Called. They Want Their Song Back - A Beautiful Fraud | TVGuide.com

This thread should have been posted in the moaning zone!

[Gear Tramp]

Their ego is jealous of the attention and success.

Agree or not, it's true.

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by luctellier

And then again, I can predict that this thread is going to be BIG!

jchas said: "At least pop has a leg up on most rap where single chord progressions are the norm - and no melody/singing is required".

There will always be arguments between different music genre because the reason why people like a certain type of music is simply different.

For example, I personnaly listen to/for:

Pop: Catchy'ness of the song, not much for the lyrics, more for the melodies.
Rock: I listen to it for the drive, the loud sound, catchy chorus, dynamic.
Metal: Technicality, The raw sound, guitar tones, rage, feelings, the solos, etc.
Hip-Hop: The beat, the vibe, the lyrics.
Jazz: The soft side, to relax.

That's why, IMHO, many people listening to metal will never understand why certain people love listening to hip-hop or why Jazz people will never listen to metal... Because they don't connect with the music style and can't relate to the main aspect of those type of music. This is one of my daily frustration... I hate when someone says "this band sucks". If only people would rather say "I don't like this band", things would be much easier. We can't debate about "tastes" but we can debate about opinions.

Just my 2 cents.

For those reasons exactly I love all types of music. I can find a good tune in any genre yet people always seem to single out 'pop'

Anybody can do pop. That seems to be the jist. Give them a PT rig and a Motif 8 and you've got a song. I have both and I've yet to find that 'song'

I suppose this goes for other genres too. When I try to right a rocky song, it never comes out as good as anybody whos big in rock. Then again most of the 'rock' songs I listen to are probably pop anyway.

A lot of people have a hate for mainstream music and prefer local bands etc. All I can say to this is, I can never find tune nor talent in any of them.

Heh, I've got a lot of opinions.

Apologies.

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by luctellier

Talking about pop and Avril Lavigne, anyone knew that Avril Lavigne's Girlfriend single is a ripoff from a great powerpop band from the 1970s called The Rubinoos?

Regarding POP music, creating a good catchy (but not cheesy and original) song is an art. An art that only real artist can achieve. That's why when you look at any pop album's credits you see so many names for a single song!

Link to Avril ripoff: Hey Avril, the Rubinoos Called. They Want Their Song Back - A Beautiful Fraud | TVGuide.com

This thread should have been posted in the moaning zone!

I thought I might have posted in the wrong place, I'm not on the forum much.

I saw that posted in another thread.

The original song is catchy. Avrils people have taken it up a notch. Such a rip off I hope somebody is taken to court.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by jchas

Mainly because pop tends to be written around a very simple 2-chord structure and tends to have very little lyrical value (3-minute loops of a neat vocal hook).
Of course this is a pretty generalized statement and probably only pertains to 95% of pop music - but it is the norm.

I think it's the exact opposite. I may be completely out of date here with what is considered "pop" these days. But most pop music I think of has chord progressions and has some sense of melody, which make it "cheesy" to some listeners.

I think the lowest common demoninator applies to what is considered "good" these days.

This is how out of touch I am. JT? Justin Timberlake? James Taylor? Someone else?

I've always liked pop music. I'm a pretty hard core JAZZ musician. Not that relaxed, kick back kind referred to earlier. At least not all the time. Pretty uncommercial stuff. Just a disclaimer.

[Tempest19]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I think it's the exact opposite. I may be completely out of date here with what is considered "pop" these days. But most pop music I think of has chord progressions and has some sense of melody, which make it "cheesy" to some listeners.

I think the lowest common demoninator applies to what is considered "good" these days.

This is how out of touch I am. JT? Justin Timberlake? James Taylor? Someone else?

I've always liked pop music. I'm a pretty hard core JAZZ musician. Not that relaxed, kick back kind referred to earlier. At least not all the time. Pretty uncommercial stuff. Just a disclaimer.

I saw a brilliant Jazz band called Yellowjackets at the Sage.

The best gig I've ever been to. Those guys can really play!!!

JT - Justin Timberlake

[luctellier]

People should not waste their time bitching what they don't like and they should instead spread the word about the music they like. I prefer to use my energy in a positive way. thumbsup

[mahasandi]

originality is not the pinnacle

its how its all brought together.

you can't please everyone so pick the music your into and go

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by luctellier

People should not waste their time bitching what they don't like and they should instead spread the word about the music they like. I prefer to use my energy in a positive way. thumbsup

100% in agreement!!!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by luctellier

People should not waste their time bitching what they don't like and they should instead spread the word about the music they like. I prefer to use my energy in a positive way. thumbsup

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

Yea there is SO MUCH great music out there, sure do wish people actually went out to see it more.

Glenn

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by Tempest19

See this is the trouble.

And I'll say this without trying to offend anybody. A lot of older men, I'm 20 have this opinion.

All I can say is, I'm not sure JT is marketed for over 40's

People who dont appreciate this music or even a good tune which is 'cheesy' pop I sometimes think are resentful because they're not cashing in on these hit songs.

I'd never say a song has to have real structure and to be 'deep' just to make it a proper song.

This isnt an argument, more so I get annoyed when I put a lot of hard work into a song and I feel my lecturer doesnt give me the credit for it because its not a 'proper' song.

Of course my songs aren't great, but I'm working on it.

Sorry, my friend, but I'm a young guy too. Most of the people I know who have difficulty with pop music are usually either serious, accomplished musicians (whatever their age), and American guys in their teens and twenties who think it is just cheeseball stuff (it's totally different in Europe, where this kind of music is often seen as acceptably "cool" by young men -- not usually so in most circles in the 'States).

And when it comes to cheese, I really don't think it's a matter of simple melodies and chord progressions. After all, there's plenty of stuff out there with this that very few people would consider cheesy in any way. The Beatles and, well, just about every other critically-acclaimed rock band are all about this, without being cheesy.

But the ability to play one's own instruments is part of it. Actually writing the songs yourself is also a key part. And then there's the lyrics. If it's pretty shallow stuff to just go over the top of a beat and a catchy hook, that's gonna inspire a pretty healthy dose of disdain from a lot of people (or at least they might not care much either way, but would have a difficult time being particularly impressed or inspired by them). Add to this a manufactured image, or the fact that it isn't even a group of guys who grew up knowing each other, but were rather carefully chosen from different places by some group-creator in order to maximize profit-potential, and you begin to see how such an act might be taken a bit less seriously.

But as War said, his 12-year-old daughter loves a bunch of this stuff. Pop promoters really know their business model.

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by Tempest19

I saw a brilliant Jazz band called Yellowjackets at the Sage.

The best gig I've ever been to. Those guys can really play!!!

JT - Justin Timberlake

Absolutely. Those guys in the Yellowjackets are virtuosos, write their own stuff, and they put on a great show!

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Spectacle

Sorry, my friend, but I'm a young guy too. Most of the people I know who have difficulty with pop music are usually either serious, accomplished musicians (whatever their age), and American guys in their teens and twenties who think it is just cheeseball stuff (it's totally different in Europe, where this kind of music is often seen as acceptably "cool" by young men -- not usually so in most circles in the 'States).

Totally disagree with this. At risk of offending everyone here, I'm probably the most accomplshed musician here, and I like pop music. You cannot generalize this way. That's completely bogus.

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Totally disagree with this. At risk of offending everyone here, I'm probably the most accomplshed musician here, and I like pop music. You cannot generalize this way. That's completely bogus.

As much as I respect you Henry, and your long list of posts that I have read and been enlightened by, I said "most of the people I know". You can't disagree with what I say my experience has been unless you know something about my experiences that I don't. What I said is true, and to go ahead and generalize, I do think it is a significant point for much of America's young men, particularly those who are musicians. Does that mean that there aren't plenty of people in the US, even decent musicians, who like pop music? No, of course not. Does that mean that these people who don't like pop are even necessarily "right" in any way (if we can even use that word to describe something so subjective)? No. But do they exist? Yes, absolutely.

I also like a lot of what is considered "pop" music (though usually not the most manufactured of groups/sounds). In fact, I come to appreciate more and more of this stuff the older I get, as I learn to overcome whatever remnants of clique-ish closemindedness that still remain from my days growing up in American public school.

But there's a big difference between humming along to something, or dancing to it in a club, and saying, "hey, that's a really fantastic artist there, one of the people/groups I have been most impressed/inspired by". Doesn't mean the stuff sucks; just don't expect it to get as many props as, say, a singer/songwriter or band who has the same positives as the pop group, but also adds inspired or intelligent lyrics, can play his/her/their instrument(s), and comes across as more geniune, and not just the product of a label. That shouldn't be any surprise, really.

Yet, some fantastic talents have indeed come up through the pop ranks over the years. I remember a thread you were posting on awhile back where I totally agreed with you about Christina Aguilera. Wow, what a voice (and yes, the girl has soul). I'm just trying to get at some basic reasons, in response to our OP, why it is that many people don't respect a lot of pop music that's out there.

[theblue1]

I think one can appreciate the skill and craft that goes into a product without finding the product of any personal value.

I mean... I can appreciate the skill and craft in a machine gun... but it's still something I'd like to see each and every single copy of dropped into the mouth of hell.

Much like...

... oh never mind.

[gsilbers]

because pop music sucks, although it sells more, and more poeple listen to it.

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by Spectacle

Because these more recent "pop" groups tend not to be artists/musicians/songwriters, but rather pretty faces with occasionally decent talent manufactured into a look/package by a label or promoter, who play other peoples' stuff, and it's generally more "fun" than "deep".

This is hardly a "recent" trend.

[lazzaro]

To put some context in this discussion ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9pK27lsDtQ

"In a Sentimental Mood"

I remember the first time I heard this. It was when I
read it off of sheet music I borrowed from the public
library when I was 10 (1972).

Then I turned the page of that book, and played Satin Doll
for the first time. Then I took out other books from the
library, and played songs like Stardust for the first time.

Does it make sense to write songs in this style for young
artists? No, of course not. We don't live in the era those
songs were written for. But I do think there is an integrity
of melody and harmony in songs of that era that is harder
to find in today's mainstream popular music than it should be,
given the talents and skills of the writers.

Whenever I see those topics I like to do the following exhibit:

1. Avril's Girlfriend
2. Modest Mouse or Maximo Park song of choice
(both are, roughly, pop)

Now, if you are an musician then you will quickly decide that 2. is in fact better than 1.

Why is that? Because musicians perceive music differently in their brain, analyzing it differently (I don't have the study ready).
This leads to more eliteism - understandable, because the musician knows what is going on and the not-musician does not. He just listens to chord progressions that are "familiar" - they sound good. The musician just thinks "oh boy, not again".

So while I can enjoy a simple pop song, it is always perfectly clear that there are songs - even in pop - that are better because they are more complex and aesthetically more pleasing - songs that combine many elements together so that you have to say "wow", after following it. A pop song is more of a background noise that DOES NOT interfer with anything because it is so known and generic.
This is why people become less and less aware of music. Music that doesn't show innovation will codemn itself to beeing a background noise, something that does not scream for attention, but rather says "hey, look at the video and the story provided on MTV while mildly ignoring the music in the background"

If I listen to music, I will sit down and do only that.
I will try to channel my musical knowledge and emotion into what I am hearing. Am I pleased, surprised, stunned?
The only distraction I want then is a good smoke and a scotch.

Now, if I do this with a Avril Lavigne album, I am insanely bored halfway through.
A Tool album? I will listen it again and again.


I am pretty sure this is not coincidental.

[Guarnanene]

I think they both have their positives an negatives...

like take Justin for example.... this is one of the most incredible rendition of a real song... (listen to the CD recording, than listen to this one: 'Cry Me a River (Live on The Ellen DeGeneres Show)' Video - Justin Timberlake - AOL Music )

now take "fergie"

this is TOTAL CRAP. 'Glamorous (AOL Sessions)' Video - Fergie - AOL Music

I have respect for some pop artist like JT... but most I don't because they are all like fergie.

[Tempest19]

Justin is a multi instrumentalist.

Last night he played guitar and keys. All of the renditions of the songs were to a very very high standard.

I didn't bring up this topic to bitch about the situation, more so just to try and find out why the value of pop music is lower.

I've got one thing that really bugs me.

Everytime anybody talks about a great song, they always mention the Beatles etc, the only trouble I have with this is, I don't look at the Beatles as having great songs. They're not from my generation. I was born in 86. It always seems relative to age. When somebody is asked, "Whats a great song?" nobody ever says, Cry Me A River. They always suggest something old. I'm not saying those songs were bad but they don't have the same appeal to me.

Just because they're old doesn't mean they're great songs.

Also in terms of production, any new album blows them out the water so whats so special about songs like that?

It takes real musicians to play on pop records. Drummers, guitarists, keys, stringists.

[ignatius]

Originally Posted by warhead

There are only 12 notes.

what? 12 note scale? what's that? why limit yourself?

Originally Posted by warhead

The english language hasn't expanded much since the 1950's.

i totally disagree. language is continuously evolving. slang, modern usage. new words are born and die all the time.

as far as pop music. er.. a lot of it is really boring and so many people just copy a hit and keep cranking it out until they have something else to copy.

some pop stuff has a really high production value and is technically innovative. i hate to use BT as an example but several years ago my nephew who was 7 or something at the time.. played an nsync song for me in headphones and the vocal processing/edits etc were just insanse. i guess it was all kyma.

i'm one of those uber picky listeners but i enjoy a good mindless pop song now and then or just a basic guitar/bass/drums/singer cranking out some sing along for me join in on. weezer comes to mind. a good hook etc will always grab me.

i think most people who have a hard time w/pop music get cheesed off w/the actual singer/artist more so than the music which some times has something worthwhile in it but isn't something most people will find themselves listening to 15 years from now. i can't imagine someone pulling out a britney spears record in 20 years and basking in its awesomeness. just my 2 cents.