Guitar heads. Point to point?

[ChristopherDawn]

So I'm looking at this Fender head that was made "custom."

The guy selling it (whom I know and trust not to be a sleaze about sales and rip me off) says that it was a custom made tube head, and that everything is point to point with no circuit board?

Anybody know what difference this would make in the sound or anything else?

[Meriphew]

If it's a modern day Fender then it's got to be a Tone Master head.

[ChristopherDawn]

I think it's older.

I'm taking my cab and guitar out there today to test it out.

All I really know about is it's custom made, point to point instead of a circuit board, tube, and it's red.

[Meriphew]

I know the Pro Sonic's came in a lot of custom colors, but I didn't think they were PTP. I can't recall any old Fenders being red.

[juniorhifikit]

For fun, I gutted a 70's Marshall MKII Master Volume that was in bad shape, and hand wired point to point a Marshall Plexi. Kind of apples to oranges, but the tone was richer, the individual notes of complex chords were clearer, and the high end was less harsh.

Bottom line, if the amp sounds good to you, buy it! Who cares if it's a digital model gerbil wheel!

[ChristopherDawn]

Yeah yeah, I know the whole 'buy it if you like it' thing. That's why I'm trying it out tonight. ;)

But I was just wondering if there were any BIG differences for the point to point. If that would be a selling point or anything.

Thanks for your info.

[alphajerk]

easier to fix.

[toledo3]

Originally posted by ChristopherDawn
Yeah yeah, I know the whole 'buy it if you like it' thing. That's why I'm trying it out tonight. ;)

But I was just wondering if there were any BIG differences for the point to point. If that would be a selling point or anything.

Thanks for your info.

Custom Shop made a number of one off amps when they first opened. See if the guy has documentation. I have a custom shop doubleneck that came with a certificate,

Point to point is ABSOLUTELY a selling point. Much easier to work on- it's REAL tool, made to be repaired.

[bloodsweatfire]

PTP does have a sound that is more organic, organic in the way we think of audio anyway. They sound 'filterless' for lack of a better word. Upfront. It's always that last 10% that makes it magic.
I can hear the difference no question. Unfortunately I sold my 63' deluxe. Now I have a Pod, a J-station and I bought something else that has no lasting value. Live and learn.

Blood

[toledo3]

The percieved tonal difference will be sweeter clipping, and overdrive. When the notes decay, you will hear more complex overtones, and the natural harmonics of the guitar will be preserved...

Have you ever notice when you strum an acoustic, how the note eventually decays into octave, fifth, and fourth harmonics, if it is a really good guitar? Well, a point to point amp will tend to preserve that characteristic in an electric and enhance it. Also, when notes feedback, the overtones are generally sweeter.

The likeliness is, also, that if this is a Fender point to point amp, you will have the tube power rectifier, or it will be extremely easy to swap in the tube rectifier ( in some recent Fender designs that use a solid state rectifier, it is literally a device that plugs into what would be the tube socket). A tube rectifier gives "sag" and "bloom". Have you ever had that effect, when you hit a low note on a vintage amp, and it kind "sags" for a second, and then "blooms" up? I hate to use esoteric terms like that!!! It is almost like a limiting effect. Anway, people have varied preference, but I LOVE tube rectifiers for anything having to do with classic rock, blues or jazz.

The new fender amps done on pcb don't even come close. They are certainly useable, and "not awful" sounding, but do not equal a good tweed/white/blonde/brown/black/silver edition fender.

[ChristopherDawn]

Thank you everybody so far for the replies.

I called the dealer and found out about this.

It is a Pearl Sonic custom built head (not the 2x10 combo). I guess it has one more tube than the combo and is all hand built in the custom shop.


Can't wait to try it out.

[Gone Fission]

Feh, ptp only became a big thing becase Eddie Van Halen sought them out in preference to pcb Marshalls. Why? Easier to work on and modify. The biggest ptp propagandist, Gerald Webber of Kendrick, started building pcb amps and didn't issue dire warnings about their sound. I wonder why.

Old Fender heads have been a popular platform for customization historically because they provided a solid platform for pretty low dollars. Many of them were non-reverb, making them less appealing to many people shopping for their idea of what a Fender amp is. I'd guess this "custom" amp is someone's tweak or rebuild in an old chasis, especially if does look older. Probable platforms would be Bassman heads (including Bassman 100 and Bassman 135), Showman and Dual Showman heads, and Bandmaster heads. (Some Showman and Bandmaster amps were reverb equipped.) For valuation, basically the amp is considered a hack job unless whoever did it has a reputation for quality work, thought an unknown might have done a great sounding amp.

Bear

[ChristopherDawn]

Originally posted by Gone Fission
For valuation, basically the amp is considered a hack job unless whoever did it has a reputation for quality work, thought an unknown might have done a great sounding amp.

It was Fender.

[Gone Fission]

The ProSonic? If memory serves, it was a semi-customshop affair from the mid 90's - printed boards, flying leads, kind of midway between modern Fender production and Fender Custom Shop amps. Head and combo configurations. Switchable rectifiers and lead modes. This would be a distortion leaning amp, not a classic Fender clean amp. Check the Fender Amp Field guide for more: http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/

Bear

[ChristopherDawn]

Originally posted by Gone Fission
http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/

Bear

Awesome link. Thanks!

[Jay Kahrs]

An amp with a good PCB layout and quality construction shouldn't sound any better or worse then an amp that's PTP wired. A lot of modern amp builders are doing amps that are half & half. They'll put the tube sockets and pots on the chassis and run wires from the main PCB to them. I think a lot of the "PCB tube amps are evil" stuff came from companies like Crate doing dumb things like putting the tube sockets on the board. The board would heat up and flex and the traces would get pulled and sometimes even crack from pulling and installing new tubes.

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
An amp with a good PCB layout and quality construction shouldn't sound any better or worse then an amp that's PTP wired. A lot of modern amp builders are doing amps that are half & half. They'll put the tube sockets and pots on the chassis and run wires from the main PCB to them. I think a lot of the "PCB tube amps are evil" stuff came from companies like Crate doing dumb things like putting the tube sockets on the board. The board would heat up and flex and the traces would get pulled and sometimes even crack from pulling and installing new tubes.

It may not sound any better or worse to your ears, but you would probably agree that it sounds DIFFERENT. To my ears, generally not as good.

I think that anyone that knows something about design will tell you that physical layout is a big deal in the sound of amps, especially in tube designs.

To clarify, I have had direct experience a/b-ing amps with the same circuit done in point to point vs. pcb- fender blackface super, twins, bassmans, and deluxes etc., the vox ac-30 and ac-15, and the marshall reissues.

[Gone Fission]

Originally posted by toledo3
To clarify, I have had direct experience a/b-ing amps with the same circuit done in point to point vs. pcb- fender blackface super, twins, bassmans, and deluxes etc., the vox ac-30 and ac-15, and the marshall reissues.

There are plenty of changes involved in those amps in the different eras besides just pcb. We're talking about different transformers, speakers, different tube complements, different voltages, different rectifiers. It's not apples to apples.

Actually, Marshall made some absolutely killer Super Leads on pcb in the 70's, and those in the know will seek them out. I forget the years that are supposed to be coolest, but there's an era when they had it down.

The association of bad pcb amps is mainly due to the fact that it's the cheapest way to build them, so surprise that some of the crappiest amps are built that way. Also keep in mind that ptp is generally considered to be prohibitively expensive to do in the industrialized world, so there has to be a way to turn the extra expense into a selling point. "Leo did it!" Yeah, well pcb was prohibitively expensive when those amps were designed.

It might be a factor, but I doubt more than 2% if even close to that much. There's much more variation between two new Celestion speakers of the same model.

Bear

[toledo3]

Gone Fission,

I do agree with many of your points. However, a circuit designed point to point was tweaked given all of those variables... to transfer that direct does not necessarily work without some extra tweaking.

I am not necessarily talking about modern versus vintage either. You can get a vox ac-30 using pcb OR point to point. That comparison is telling.

When I have done comparisons on modern vs. vintage I try to at least a/b the speakers as well- that makes a big difference. I am sure aging of components effects sound. However, some things are not even in the ballpark. An interesting thing to listen to is an old super reverb vs. a new super reverb. Same with the Marshall heads.

And you can get new amps that are made exactly like the old Marshall point to point. To compare them to the new reissues is quite telling as well.

To clarify, I think you can get a good quality out of pcb, obviously. I just think that designs done point to point do not necessarily directly transfer without some fidgeting.

[Gone Fission]

Toledo,

The only one of those comparisons that seems to really hold water for me is the pcb vs ptp modern Vox. (I thought the ptp was a different design, though, with an extra gain stage and other changes.) Anything else, the power and output transformers are probably more of a factor. And with the Vox, if they're going to charge a premium for hand-wired, well, damn, it had better be better. I'd assume there are other measurses taken to ensure this as well. (You did make sure you didn't put Alnico Blues up against Greenbacks, I presume?)

The problem is, with the possible exception of the Vox (which I have reservations about), no one builds amps with both wiring styles that are otherwise equivalent. There is no way to isolate the boards as the only factor.

Bear

[juniorhifikit]

Ever try to remove the PCB from a Marshall to replace a component? You have to remove most of the wires from the board just to flip it over and de-solder. PtP is WAY easier to fix.

Some manufacturers make the foil traces too small and too close together, resulting in weird capacitance and poopy ground path - same as in pro audio stuff. Old PCB Marshalls sound fine. Very fine. They have fat traces that are far apart.

Guitar amps are pretty simple to make, but finicky to get right. They take some tinkering - that's half the fun! If you want to tinker, go point to point. If you just want to plug in and rock, buy with your ears.

[toledo3]

I totally agree about the pcb marshalls from the seventies. My good friend has a 50 watter, and I think it is pretty damn good.

[alphajerk]

hows this then?

[jbuntz]

It's kind of hard to say unless you compare two amps with identical schematics, tubes, capacitor age etc. with one PTP and one PCB. Anybody compare the PTP AC30 with a PCB AC30? I do know that vintage plexis (not sure if they were PCB or not) I've heard sound notably different from the reissues (are they PCB?) I've heard but theres so many other varibles involved. It doesn't seem likely that a PCB is going to change the color of the same components.

[Meriphew]

The newer Vox AC30 TB's/TBX's and Vox AC30 HW's are two totally different designs. The TB/TBX model uses has three channels while the HW has a single top boost channel as well as reverb and is a Tony Bruno (of Bruno amps) design.

AC30 HW

[juniorhifikit]

Originally posted by alphajerk
hows this then?

What IS that? It looks to be built like a tank. I wish I had the patience to make my projects look like that!

[toledo3]

Originally posted by juniorhifikit
What IS that? It looks to be built like a tank. I wish I had the patience to make my projects look like that!

It looks like the inside of the Hi-Watt.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by toledo3
When I have done comparisons on modern vs. vintage I try to at least a/b the speakers as well- that makes a big difference. I am sure aging of components effects sound. However, some things are not even in the ballpark. An interesting thing to listen to is an old super reverb vs. a new super reverb. Same with the Marshall heads.

You can't really compare an old amp to a reissue unless the old amp has been totally rebuilt from the ground up. 25-40 year old components have a different sound & tone to them, normal wear & tear will make it sound completely different. Now, I'd love to grab a reissue JTM45 and hop in a time machine and compare that to a brand spankin' new JTM45 from '68.

[Thermionic]

AJ's link displays a MATAMP which uses their patented "P-T-P PCB" whereby you get the service-ability of a PTP with the ease of manufacture a pcb offers.

IMHO a good PCB will outperform a poor P-T-P and vice-versa. There is no law of physics that states one method can be superior, any subjective observations would have to be based on individual implementation in that amp, not a water-tight argument for either approach.

PCB layouts make an ENORMOUS difference to the sound, a poor layout will introduce parasitics / crosstalk / extra impedance etc. You can design the same circuit / same components on different layouts and they will measure / sound different. P-P introduces a similar challenge although crosstalk will tend to be less of an issue due to space between components.

A good layout in either discipline will perform well, P-P is a "mojo" / service advantage IMHO. I can't see any law that states it will sound superior, although craftsmenship tends to be higher on P-P units therefore they invariably perform well compared with pcb mass-produced units (as stated earlier in thread).

Cheers,
Justin

[alphajerk]

tis a Matamp... the power run on the PCB and audio on the p2p.