okay Brad ... A/B'd the Korby and Elux 47/251

[lucey]

Spent a few days here and there on it ... flutes, harmonica, various voices male and female. Eventually became very clear on the whole picture.


ELUX 251: more raspy hair, more bottom, less top air, less detailed tone, more distant.

Korby 251: cleaner image, more immediate, more top, less bottom, less 251 rasp but still some.

winner - Korby.



Korby 47: rich botttom/dark, clear

soundelux 47: not as dark, hyped top (10-12k way hyped). more distant

winner - Korby.



Manley Ref Card (w/ cryo 6072): slight rasp, bright/hard top, slight bump on the bottom

Korby 251: a hair less rasp, less hyped top, softer bright top, less bottom overall could be better in a mix, or not

winner - tie



the Ref Card was better than the Soundelux 47 at it's own game, with a similar curve and clearer. The Manley was similar yet different to the Korby 251. Turns out the ref card is a great mic with this tube (not as great with the stock tube. see tubeworld.com for nice tubes.)


the Korby set is great ... 4 distinct sounds with custom capsule cases and a nice (heavy!) hardshell case, plus a custom shock mount that is easy to use. A modern, artsy looking mic set and packaging, not a vintage copy package as both Soundeluxes were. i found myself thinking ... "why would i buy a glossy new mic made in the style of an old mic? Why not buy an old mic or buy a new mic with a new style?"

The Korby C12 and U67 (modified) caps were lovely. C12 was bright and sweet as expected. The 67 was silky with less bottom than their 47 and had some added top to the 67's I've used before (as advertised). All 4 Korby caps were very clear as in 'not there' with both vocalists and instruments. Only the 251 had any distortion to the tone ... the other 3 are different clean sounds,

rich/dark (47),
some lows, some highs - middle sound (67),
a little thinner, brighter and a touch raspy(251)
bright/clear/thin (12)

I loved the ELUX 251 years ago when i first heard it but it was no good, too much hair and not enough detail. Sorry but neither Soundeluxe was as clear (as in: sounded as high quality) to any of us there. Maybe that's the "vintage" sound you're selling?

Yet if so, I'd thought a vintage 47 was dark? So what's with the hyped 47? Not just a little top added, like the 67, it's waaaaay bright.

[bjornson]

Glad to see somebody else appreciating what Tracy is doing. He's right in my backyard and a great guy to boot!

[Meriphew]

Yeah you're right Lucey, the Soundelux mics just suck.

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Meriphew
Yeah you're right Lucey, the Soundelux mics just suck.

Honestly, it is true that the Soundelux mics are not exactly like the models that they are reminiscent of.... and in general have more top end. I don't know if it is fair to characterize it as harsh though. They are distinct tools.

Meanwhile, I have not tried the Korby's, but someone I know very closely that tested the system out-thought the midrange was a little boxy on one of the models- the 47 I think. So, maybe "warm" to Lucey, is someone else's "boxy". Others might like the high end extension.

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by lucey


the Ref Card was better than the Soundelux 47 at it's own game, with a similar curve and clearer. The Manley was similar yet different to the Korby 251. Turns out the ref card is a great mic with this tube (not as great with the stock tube. see tubeworld.com for nice tubes.)

Thanks for that, Lucey, I always love to read reviews, despite the fact that a chance of personal comparison would best naturally.
Since the Korby convertible was released I am lusting for it ( almost bought it before they raised the price significantly ), hopefully one day I can get my hands on it and at best after comparing it.

It is very interesting though how different we judge sonics.
Here is the quote that I bookmarked for the Manley Ref mic ( although very likely related to it with original tube inside ) at the time that I was researching for my first ( and yet only ) decent microphone.

"IN CONCLUSION
Three grand is a lot to cough up for a cardioid-only tube mic. In a marketplace
where the Neumann TLM 103 FET cardioid is $995, quieter and has about the
same output, you really have to WANT a tube mic to spend the extra money. The
merit of the Manley Reference Cardioid is its extreme openness and high-end
response. If you normally reach for the "air band" when EQing tracks, you
probably won't have to with this mic. If you're shooting for a more open sound and
24-bit, 96KHz audio, the Manley should capture that well, and, provided the sound
source is of a reasonable level, tube noise won't be a problem."

Ruphus

[lucey]

Originally posted by Ruphus
... It is very interesting though how different we judge sonics.
Here is the quote that I bookmarked for the Manley Ref mic ( although very likely related to it with original tube inside ) at the time that I was researching for my first ( and yet only ) decent microphone.
Ruphus

No offense but I think it's silly to compare the manley to the 103 ... the 103 is not a high end mic.

The Manley comparison to the S47 only works because of the hyped top of both their 47 and the Manley's bright curve. Both also had a low end from the tranny that was audible. The Manley to the K251 was only mentioned as it was the closest of the Korby's to the Manley, and after the Korby beat the Soundeluxes I wanted to hear it against my faithful baby. Yet they did not share the low end tranny sound and the Korby was softer on top with less midrange hair.

Also, keep in mind that every Manley sounds a touch more different than every Korby. Korby is all hand made and hand tuned by a career tweaker. Manley is high quality, and with great results, yet i've heard variations for sure in matched pairs. This Manley was a hair more open in the mids than other Ref Cards I've heard, and has the older tranny as well. I cant speak to the sound of their new mics, but I'm sure it's very close. The 12AX7 and new tranny being different, in new Manley Ref Cards.

As for the boxy/dark reviews by the friend on the Korby 47: I don't know any real U47s yet supposedly a 47 is not supposed to sound like it has top like you might expect from new mics. Especially not supposed to have the 10-12k cranked up and 400 down that I needed to match the Korby to the S47. According to Korby, this negative reaction comes up a lot. Talking to them now, it's their view as vintage mic tuners that a 47 with a ton of top is at a certain line in the sand not really a 47 anymore. The trend today is a bright top ... so there we are. Generally a good thing, yet not always. The Korby 47 for female jazz vocal was terrific.

As for noise with any high quality tube mic, it's not an issue. The beckman 5 star GE 6072 tube I added to th Manley did something to smooth the mids and did nothing i could hear or measure for noise from the stock tube, which Manley hand selected for noise.



As for the Soudelux line in general ... look smartasses, I dont think it's crap and did not imply anything that extreme. But I grew out of wanting to own it with each passing use as far as tone goes. And I grew distant with the visual aesthetic as well. If I want a vintage look and sound, best to get a vintage mic, me thinks.

To each their own, however and if you love your Soundelux ... great

[kevinc]

Originally posted by lucey


And I grew distant with the visual aesthetic as well. If I want a vintage look and sound, best to get a vintage mic, me thinks.

Then why would you get the Korby mics ?

From what little I`ve heard Korby is more faithful to the original sound than Soundelux is.

I`ve gotten smacked here a couple of times for comparing Soundelux to the original.

They`re not really going for an exact copy they`re just giving us a frame of reference.

I`m not sure you were planning on buying either but I think you got it reversed as far as who`s more of the copycat.



Your comparisons themselves are very interesting though and thanks for sharing.

[toledo3]

Well, I don't think that the comparison is that interesting, b/c there is not info on what the recording gear was, nor any kind of info about characteristics of the room. On top of that, I find you usually just have to hear things for yourself.

[lucey]

Originally posted by kevinc
Then why would you get the Korby mics ?

From what little I`ve heard Korby is more faithful to the original sound than Soundelux is.

the Korby is a new mic and sounds new ... although it may be more true to the sounds of the originals when new, it lacks any vintage coloration from aging or abuse. so why buy one? i might want one for the value, the quality, the 4 options and the service from the manufacturer... and in 30 years, it may sound vintage. mostly i'd buy one because it doesn't get any better than this for immediacy and clarity ...all 4 heads were clear, for their tone style.

also most mics seem to have a hyped top and the korby does not. in addition to the korby's transparency, the no-sizzle thing is seeming pretty cool at this point.

as for "what was the room and recording gear used?"... that info is not important in a comparision. the only thing that matters is if i can describe the mics well enough in a vacuum of sorts, so that you you can get a sense from the words of the silimarities and differences between somewhat like objects in normal uses.

if you have that, you pick and try one for yourself, etc, etc.

the whole "this mic sounds great on a guitar cab" thing is far less useful as there is no reference to anything else's sound.

[par]

Thanks lucey! Interesting reading... Have you, or anybody else, compared the Korbys with the Lawson's?

[oklaSTAR]

Thanks for the review.
I have a Korby mic, and I love it.

[Carlos Boll]

I've got both the E47 and Korby 4-head mic.

Regardless of what they are 'based' on, I find them both to be quite usefull - particularly on vocals.

I find the Korby has a more 'intimate' sound while the Soundelux is more laid back although a tad bit brighter.

If I had to choose all over again - I would get both.

They are both wonderful and big sounding.

[lucey]

Originally posted by par
Thanks lucey! Interesting reading... Have you, or anybody else, compared the Korbys with the Lawson's?

no ... but i am willing to learn

[lucey]

Originally posted by toledo3
someone I know very closely that tested the system out-thought the midrange was a little boxy on one of the models- the 47 I think. So, maybe "warm" to Lucey, is someone else's "boxy". Others might like the high end extension.

i dont mean to pick at you, but this friend was naive to say "boxy" ... and to have not heard it makes it naive to say anything.

everyone who has heard the 47 says that it's the best cap of the 4. it's the one that sticks in their minds the next day. it's the one that can be eq'd to fit any song.

just because every modern mic tends toward a 'pre eq'd ' sound dont make it right.



BTW ... i've asked for a Lawson set of 47/251 as there was a mention of that ... does anyone really care for a further shootout?

(it would be Korby v. Lawson, as I've returned the Soundeluxes.)

[jameslugo]

I had the Korby convertable for a week about three months ago and it was awesome.

Since then I have put the Korby tracks (same pre, compressor, settings, singer and song) against SD U195, SD U99, AT 4050, AT 4033, Rode Classic 2, Neumann U87ai. The Korby to me is in a different league. Very rich and expensive sounding. The U99 was similiar to the Korby 67 head and sounded very nice.

IMO - Korby:
251 - hugeness!!! Very present. Really nice.
C-12 - To me was way smaller but the most beautiful sounding.
67 - Not my cup of tea, maybe good for female vocals. Kinda hypy and glossy sounding. I sing like Chris Cornnel and it took all the character and rasp of the throat out. Sucked for me.
47 - When we were tracking my vocals I did not like it, because next to the 251 it was dark and a bit simple sounding but when it was over and we EQ'd, compressed and pumped up the my vocal track the 47 won. It took the this harsh frequency in my voice and really made it pleasing and my scream was intense and rich.

Since then I have let about 20 engineers, some top LA guys hear it and most felt the 47 and 251 where awesome, the C-12 was nice for females and that the 67 would probably be best for acoustic guitar or female R&B vocals.

Anyway, waiting on some $$$$, then I want to get the Korby with the 47/251 and the C-12 if I can afford it.

p.s. I have the 3D Mic CD and as far as I can hear, the Lawson is not as good as the Soundeleux.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by lucey
everyone who has heard the 47 says that it's the best cap of the 4. it's the one that sticks in their minds the next day. it's the one that can be eq'd to fit any song.

Its funny i thought the U67 was the best. The 251 was ok and the C12/U47 basically useless.

[kevinc]

That`s what I`ve been hearing.

A lot of people on differen`t forums said the 67 cap was REALLY close to a Neumann 67 and the best one of the bunch.

That`s what initially intrigued me about the convertible because I`ve been after a 67 for a while.

The original 67 was specifically made for vocals (unlike the 47) and is good for Male, Female, and your Grandmas vocals which makes it surprising you guys aint more into it.


But to each their own I guess.

[lucey]

Originally posted by kevinc

But to each their own I guess.

Maybe all 4 of the Korby caps are amazing ...


I heard today of a new (to him) Neuman 67 owner who wishes he had the Korby after hearing it ... so it must be great for those in 67 land.


I preferred what I remember of the Neumann 67s I'd used locally ... they were without the top end of the Korby and had more silk. Yet that was from memory.

[epicenter800]

I would love to hear comparisons on both the Korby and the Lawson systems. I currently own the L251 and am looking to add the L47 Capsule. The Korby system does look like a nice system as well.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by lucey
Spent a few days here and there on it ... flutes, harmonica, various voices male and female. Eventually became very clear on the whole picture.<SNIP>

Brian:
So, looks like you've made up your mind, and that's a good thing.

The perception that rises from your post is that generally you think Soundelux is bright, and that the Korby is much darker and dark is what you prefer.

Most of the other comments you make seem highly subjective (one is more "immediate", etc), which is hard to apply to other folks and other situations (especially when I know this is NOT what others say who are making their current living as a FT engineer using Soundeluxes).

After the demo, you bought the Korby, right?

Brad

[lucey]

Originally posted by Brad Lunde
Brian:
So, looks like you've made up your mind, and that's a good thing.

The perception that rises from your post is that generally you think Soundelux is bright, and that the Korby is much darker and dark is what you prefer.

Most of the other comments you make seem highly subjective (one is more "immediate", etc), which is hard to apply to other folks and other situations (especially when I know this is NOT what others say who are making their current living as a FT engineer using Soundeluxes).

If you insist on rewriting my response ...


dark is not what i prefer. emotional impact is the game.

i prefer the highest quality mics, which were the manley (with $100 6072 tube, old tranny) and korby.

the korby's are half way in between the soundelux and brauner ... not too much dirt and not so transparent that the vocal is lost in the air around the mic. the korby made all vocalists RIGHT HERE, with any capsule. the soundleuxes were both distant by comparison.

the Manley and the s47 were both in the same bright with bottom family, and the Manley was clearer ... not in eq ... as in, more immediate, palpable, objectively better at that sound.

the S251 was just too hollow and raspy. i have an 1176 for that sound on any clean mic ... and it was physically distant like the S47.

the 251 and 47 Soundelux both had a thickness. cheaper mics have this. both soundelux mics would have to be eq'd to get that bump out in mixing and still struggle to reach the clarity of the Manley or Korby with no eq. the manley has this low dirt too, but less so. the korby was clear top to bottom, with any cap.

the S47 was appealing at first, yet tiresome in a hurry. much like the manley it's so hyped that it had few options. like many new mics, pre eq'd. and why so bright on a 47 ?

the korby offered 4 distinct tones, all with immediacy that was not ghostly like brauner, yet more immediate than soundelux. that's the best a vocal mic can do IMO. sorry, but they've got you for quality ... objectively speaking.



as for the K47 being so memorable to us, it was dark yet clear, and thus had many options with eq. if there was one cap to buy, this was the interesting one for it's options. dark/clear as it was, the 47 just seemed like it had many places to go.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by lucey
If you insist on rewriting my response ...


dark is not what i prefer. emotional impact is the game.

<SNIP>the soundleuxes were both distant by comparison.

I've having a hard time with these ideas, as you are the only one who's ever offered them up as facts Brian. "Emotional impact" is about as subjective as it comes. "Distant" is also a subjective word, no?

I'm glad you like the mics you found. But there is much to be argued about the tranlation to other situations of your comments, other than in your your room, on your preamp, with your ears.

I'm not trying to argue with you, you found what YOU found. It just doesn't play in the market from the hundreds of "in the trenches" folks I've spoken to about Soundelux (and brauner).

Fair enough?
Brad

[kevinc]

Originally posted by lucey
If you insist on rewriting my response ...

I don`t think he did that at all.

For that matter I can`t see any real point to this thread other than starting an argument with Brad or other people that like Soundelux microphones.

"but they`ve got you in quality" is the type of subjective comment he`s probably talking about that means absolutely nothing.


Microphones are a subjective thing in the first place and EVERYBODY hears different and nobody has the same mic collection around here. Other people have A/B`d the Korby and Soundelux and liked Soundelux better and don`t think they`re "hyped"


Are you pissed at Brad for some reason or are you just argumentitive ?

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by lucey

the korby offered 4 distinct tones, all with immediacy that was not ghostly like brauner, yet more immediate than soundelux. that's the best a vocal mic can do IMO. sorry, but they've got you for quality ... objectively speaking.

Well you certainly have your opinions about all this, to a fault, but I don't see anything objective about what you posted. So the Korby fulfills your particular expectations. They are, after all, only your expectations. Everybody has different ideas about what they want a vocal mic to do. In fact, I hear that most other Korby users tend to prefer capsules other than what you preferred. But hey, if that 47 cap works for you, who am I to say that it sucks.

Enjoy your Korbys. Which caps did you end up buying, BTW?

-R

[lucey]

The point of this thread Kevin was to reply to Brad in the same forum the topic began, as he asked me to A/B them all instead of saying the Elux 251 was too raspy, with only a trade show headphone and a session years ago.

Turns out that impression was spot on.

As is the fact that the SOundelux 47 is very, very bright for a 47 and sounds more veiled than the Manley (of similar tone).

For Brad to take my first assesmant and distill "Korby dark, you like dark" was an insult and a manipulation of what was offered.



And as far as the attempt to make this a purely subjective assesment, your opinion's a loner, etc .. I know a Soundelux dealer who ... well ... dont want to get anyone in trouble.

I had a number of people here who all preferred the clarity and quality of the Korby. These were non brainwashed by websites or PR people ... just talented musicians with open ears.

The truth is that Brad is 100% identified with Brauner, Soundelux, etc ... as are many salespeople in any profession ... and you objectively believe them to be better quality as a result.

I disagree.

The openness of sound differences were not small or subjective.

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by lucey

As is the fact that the SOundelux 47 is very, very bright for a 47 and sounds more veiled than the Manley (of similar tone).

That's not a "fact" at all. I auditioned a Soundelux 47 and to my ears it wasn't as bright as a vintage 47. I compared it to both a long and short body 47, one refurbished (stock, not modified) by Stephen Paul which had been a favorite of Sinatra's at one point. These are excellent 47's that I've heard magnificent recordings done on, and the Soundelux simply wasn't as bright. We checked this out with 2 other AE's, using API's, V72's, DeMedios, DRS-2, 737's and Vintech 73's, recording male and female singers, voiceovers, hand percussion and acoustic guitar. We also compared a Lawson 47, which was a little brighter but in a pleasing way.

So, whereas I don't doubt your perception, mine was otherwise, so you're not giving us a "fact".

I also don't know of any mic which doesn't sound veiled when compared to the Manley. (But that's not necessarily a bad thing.)

-R

[toledo3]

Brian, which one is better for miking up furniture? dfegad

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by lucey
The point of this thread Kevin was to reply to Brad in the same forum the topic began, as he asked me to A/B them all instead of saying the Elux 251 was too raspy, with only a trade show headphone and a session years ago.

Turns out that impression was spot on.

I think Brian- what we were talking about as that the first Soundelux 251's where brighter than later versions as the mic was improved. I suspected that this is what you heard.

As is the fact that the Soundelux 47 is very, very bright for a 47 <snip>

I'd like to see that particular 47. They are not very very bright. Maybe just that one?

For Brad to take my first assesmant and distill "Korby dark, you like dark" was an insult and a manipulation of what was offered.

Wait a second, I insulted you? You said the Korby's were darker, as does the distributor whom I know well. You said the Soundelux's sounded this way and that. I didn't get insulted. I just spoke from experience that I have here (from dealing with a wide range of people who own/eval/check out Soundelux's).

And as far as the attempt to make this a purely subjective assesment, your opinion's a loner, etc .. I know a Soundelux dealer who ... well ... dont want to get anyone in trouble.

Yes, the Korby distributor! Him you believe that Soundelux is too bright, but not me, who deals with ALL the Soundelux customers ?

The truth is that Brad is 100% identified with Brauner, Soundelux, etc ... as are many salespeople in any profession ... and you objectively believe them to be better quality as a result.
I disagree.


And I should not be insulted by this last comment Brian? Hmmm. Very very odd. I thought until now this had been reasonable conversation.

[toledo3]

Brad, don't get too downtrodden.

Lucey is writing these posts while the furniture wax dries. Lucey, if you were smart you would be trying to trade Brad a couch or something for some of his mics.

[lucey]

To say that you are identified with Soundelux is not a fact Brad? It's your livelyhood. "Soundelux and Brauner are highest quality", you say.

I disagree.

Brauner is highest quality but I dont care for it.

Soundelux was not what I'd call highest quality. High quality, but not highest.


If all you can do is say how great all of your products are and how lacking other products are, is this not "identified"? It was not meant as an insult just a point of reference for any passers by. You are the Soundelux distributor after all.

You have said on the phone, and I'm sorry in advance if this is breaking trust but it seems crucial at this point, that the Soundelux would hold it's value and the Korby will fade.

I disagree. More likely that Korby is the new Neumann and Soundelux is a fad with residual value built by only by PR and momentum.

(Again I ask, why make a new mic that looks like an old mic and sounds like a new mic? It's lacking integrity and ingenuity IMO.)




As far as "believing" the distributor over you ... false assumption. I did the tests b4 speaking to anyone, yet that dealer sells both mics ... so why would she bother to pick one over the other if not from honesty?

And as should be clear, I don't believe anyone or follow any particular trend. Maybe the Soundelux needs some naysayers and it turns out through careful consideration that I am one. Don't like the look as a factor of the design integrity, nor the sound, nor the imagined resale. If others do ... great for them!

What's one wacko in a room full of gladhanders anyway? No worries, right.




As for the Sinatra 47 Rick ... that's kinda like saying "Holocaust" ... it's hard to argue with a Sinatra mic reference ... yet how do you know what was done to that 47 before or since? How do you KNOW?

I'm not qualified to talk of vintage 47's ... so even if Rick is right about their tone ... and as you suggest Brad, my Soundelux 47 was unusually hyped as compared to most ... what does that say for QC?