okay Brad ... A/B'd the Korby and Elux 47/251

[doug_hti]

Originally posted by lucey
this thread is not about results ... it's about quality.

it's not about "liking" or "disliking" ... it's about quality. SD is the appearance of quality to my ear.

brad wants to say SD is 'high quality' and I say it's high priced FLAVA. you're right, they got that in spades. as i have said 6 times now ... you happy with SD? me happy for you!



yet is that quality?

i say overpriced, overhyped, silly looking things that have never moved me at all. and i'm moved by quality.

...hmmm...

[Exmun]

Originally posted by lucey
this thread is not about results ... it's about quality.

it's not about "liking" or "disliking" ... it's about quality. SD is the appearance of quality to my ear.

brad wants to say SD is 'high quality' and I say it's high priced FLAVA. you're right, they got that in spades. ... yet is that quality?

...i'm moved by quality.

Brian,

How is "quality" an "objective" term? Unless "quality" is defined by specific factors, all of this talk is just a subjective discussion. That is, unless you and your listening party actually measured something quantifiable, the entire discussion is what you heard on that day.

Don't get me wrong, subjective opinion, even "qualified" subjectivity is what this and other boards are about. However, let's not kid ourselves into making our qualified subjective opinions into fact ... unless we're willing to point out measureable factors that signify "quality."

[lucey]

Originally posted by loudist
Lucey, my inbox is full, here and at PSW.
Do you know why? It is full of requests/complaints from many who haven't even posted in this thread to rip you a new one like was done at PSW.

Thanks for the civil post. You might agree that Team Loudist is a sad group for calling on you to get nasty for them.

Now, I don't have any real interest in fighting anyone elses battles, but I can see the reason so many are frustrated with you and your unreasonable campaign.

Sure I see it too ... they think the mics are great. As is their right. And I'm happy for them (7th time). Yet i have no "Campaign". Just opinions.

What started out as a comparative review turned quickly into something else... personal bashing of respected members of the audio community. <edit>

Please point that out, I had and have no personal agenda, nor did I say anything intended or capable of hurting anyone personally. You are like a gaggle of old ladies about this kind of thing.

Brad turned my review into "Korby dark, you like dark" . Which was either the dumbest interpretation possible, or the work of a spin doctor ... and from there I was RE explaining the simple review in different AND MORE SPECIFIC TERMS, to clarify what HE misunderstood, or chose to spin.

You are right, there are folks here (many) that do not like your tone and approach. I do not see anyone in support of your methods.
Get a clue.
Give it a rest, your point has been invalidated, for the largest part, by your own keyboard.

Again, thanks for the civil post.

my "point" is simply my opinion ... which is "valid" no matter how many disagree

Not that it matters, or that I care, yet i have supporters as ever, who do not want your rath, and do not post in these sort of things when they get heated. The heat coming from your types, not my opinions, runs off most good people and what's left are the Brian Haters and the Soudelux fans. Fair enough. Offline, one guy pointed out that before this thread he had never heard anyone not in love with Soudelux. Are they really that good?

As much as i'm happy for you Alpha ... I have never liked these mics. First it was the 99, then the 195, now these 2. They lose the source for the color. I want the source. The u195 is not as good as my old TB-95, pre SP.

I honestly think they are all overpriced. $4500 for that 251? ... if i ever come to see that differently, I will write a genuflecting (sp?) letter to Bock and post a giant recall on this board.

If their 47 comes to sound like less than a colorful 10k hyped mic and more like a vintage recreation, i will do the same.

Sorry, but that is not bashing, not personal and very valid. Nothing sinister, just one wackos opinion ... COLOR is not QUALITY. Obviously, to me.

'Build Quality' is not quality, either. A Hummer may be built well, and be popular, and be owned by a bunch of guys that would want to kick my ass for saying so, but that doesn't make it a quality vehicle.



Now has anyone A/Bd the Soundelux/Lawson and Korby 47/251s ?

[lucey]

Originally posted by Exmun
Brian,

How is "quality" an "objective" term? Unless "quality" is defined by specific factors, all of this talk is just a subjective discussion. That is, unless you and your listening party actually measured something quantifiable, the entire discussion is what you heard on that day.

Don't get me wrong, subjective opinion, even "qualified" subjectivity is what this and other boards are about. However, let's not kid ourselves into making our qualified subjective opinions into fact ... unless we're willing to point out measureable factors that signify "quality."

Well, have you ever read "Zen ... motorcycle maintenance" ? i think it was 1989 ... that says it better than i can.

Quality, like rightness ... can be known directly through a balance of mind, body, intuition. Science is only an approximation that comes from intelligence - an imballanced tool for measurment.

It's a very out there way of seeing things ... but i have a right to it.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by lucey
As much as i'm happy for you Alpha ... I have never liked these mics. First it was the 99, then the 195, now these 2. They lose the source for the color. I want the source.

'Build Quality' is not quality, either. A Hummer may be built well, and be popular, and be owned by a bunch of guys that would want to kick my ass for saying so, but that doesn't make it a quality vehicle.

thats fine you want the source... thats your personal preference. i want the source and more. thats my personal preference. i get MORE from the soundelux than other mic lines. again, you are ONLY relying on SUBJECTIVE opinions. nothing concrete or absolute.

and a Hummer IS a quality vehicle. any way you want to look at it. in its class, it has NO competitor. nothing can touch it.

build quality has a lot and soundelux sound better than they are built. you might not SUBJECTIVELY like it, which is your perrogative... but they are certainly quality mics.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by loudist
Lucey, my inbox is full, here and at PSW.
Do you know why? It is full of requests/complaints from many who haven't even posted in this thread to rip you a new one like was done at PSW.

thats just pathetic.

[Duardo]

Ironic how quick the response was to quash one negative opinion or to talk 'endorsees'. Maybe they are all busy right now, fair enough.

It may have something to do with the fact that it's the weekend now. Or that Brad's tired of corresponding with you. Can't say I'd be surprised either way...you seem to be the only person here who's really concerned about this, and since you obviously don't like the microphones anywhay I'm not sure that there's any pressing need to respond to you.

I wouldn't expect anyone affiliated with Soundelux to like it that I find the mics overpriced and less than stellar sounding ... yet if they are such good products, and business is booming ... why not answer relevent questions with tact and information, and keep things rolling positively along?

I'm sure they'd be happy to answer relevant questions to someone who really wanted to know because they were interested in the microphones, not someone who's already made it clear that they don't like the microphones and that anything that they have to say is suspect because of their relationship with Soundelux.

Brad turned my review into "Korby dark, you like dark" . Which was either the dumbest interpretation possible, or the work of a spin doctor ...

It may have been an oversimplification, but it certainly wasn't a dumb interpretation. You did describe the Korby 47 as "rich bottom/dark" and the Soundelux E47 as "not as dark". You later said that "everyone who has heard the 47 says that it's the best cap of the 4" and that "it's the one that can be eq'd to fit any song ". You criticized the Soundelux E47 for being too bright, even though you don't know any "real" U47's. So I don't see why you're surprised that that's the general impression Brad came away with, even though there was obviously a lot more to it than that.

I'm sure they could care less that you don't like the microphones...they understand that not everybody will like their microphones. They understand how subjective this stuff is.

So can we go there or not? There used to be people interested in mics on this thread, even when i didn't have positive things to say about Soundelux...

I'm still very interested in mics, although your opinion stopped meaning anything to me long ago.

my "point" is simply my opinion ... which is "valid" no matter how many disagree

Of course your opinion is "valid"...it's just your statement that, objectively speaking, Soundelux microphones are not highest quality, that is not valid.

-Duardo

[lucey]

Originally posted by Duardo

Of course your opinion is "valid"...it's just your statement that, objectively speaking, Soundelux microphones are not highest quality, that is not valid.

-Duardo

So who's opinion on highest quality is valid? those who LIKE the mics? Those who MAKE the mics???

Originally posted by alphajerk
thats fine you want the source... thats your personal preference. i want the source and more. thats my personal preference. i get MORE from the soundelux than other mic lines. again, you are ONLY relying on SUBJECTIVE opinions. nothing concrete or absolute.

and a Hummer IS a quality vehicle. any way you want to look at it. in its class, it has NO competitor. nothing can touch it.

well if you want to defend the H2 go ahead. Yet 10 MPG in 2004 ? ... a war vehicle chromed up for the road?

Then I suppose you think the 50's era farm tractors called Harley's are quality too?

Chrome and cool don't make it quality.

build quality has a lot and soundelux sound better than they are built. you might not SUBJECTIVELY like it, which is your perrogative... but they are certainly quality mics.

Build Quality and Quality are Different Animals
I agree, they are "quality mics". And I agree, I don't subjectively like the tone of any of their mics.

Yet I'm saying "highest quality" new mics is a strata that goes to Korby and Brauner and maybe others like Josephson if they made a tube LD. Subjectivity is not the only thing out there to look at, as hard as that may be for us to see thru the lens we're in the habit of using.

The Wide World of Qualities and The Other - Preference
It's not so hard so see if you look at another field, one with less at stake emotionally. Take any high end field ... micro brews, wine, handmade guitars, custom furniture, 1073 clones, food ... people who know have a relationship with quality do in fact hear, see, touch, taste, or intuit it every day. And a chef can know guitars in quick order ... as the study of quality transfers to other fields with just a little practice.

Preference is another, equally valid world ... I can 'prefer' a new Gibson yet a cutom shop Fender might be better 'quality'. I can 'prefer' the tone of a Fender yet a Paul Reed Smith might be better 'quality'. I know two luthiers, one here and one in Scotland, and they are the first to tell you ... quality exists, and it has nothing to do with "like" or "dislike" or popularity or even construction material ... it's greater than the sum of the parts.

It's no crime to be "quality" so I'm not "bashing" Soundelux or anyone personally by publically disagreeing with their mindset. I'm saying the pricing and PR of Soundelux reflects "highest quallity" and since they get away with it ... great for them.


Refined Taste Is It's Own Satisfaction
If you need to think that your SD mics are "highest quality" instead of "quality" go right ahead and think what you want, but why do you need to convince me you're right or I'm wrong? I don't care what you think of my mic closet or my opinions. And I won't be swayed by bullying or popular vote. I hear what I hear and trust what I know.

In the case of the mics, I liked the tone and heard the quality of the Korby set. The Brauner stuff I've heard has quality but not 'preference' for me, maybe that Lundahl? The Soundelux had neither, it was a Harley and a BMW or a Triumph is a qualitatively better bike.


Subjective vs Objective - WTF?
Tone, practicality, etc. are always first to me too - and they are subjective. Quality is another concern altogether, and it's judged differently ... not from "like" or "dislike" but from a more objective place.

Not everyone believes in this place or ever tries to live there ... totally fine with me. Yet if i know it exists and have spent a lifetime being intune, in touch and helped by the presence of quality and rightness. I ask that you don't try to be an expert in something you either don't believe exists, or don't work to relate to. I feel no superiority to anyone who prefers to live in "like" and "dislike". And you have no reason to argue your point in the face of my considered opinions o quality except from insecurity.

I'm respond in this thread not to argue, but because turning everything into "like/dislike" is a great disservice to the world of qualities that I will not consent to.





Hearing Quality in Music
Look at music making ... How does a good producer KNOW and I mean KNOW when a vocal take is a keeper? ... they can hear quality. It's not a "preference" where you wait to hear 100 takes, the singer has died of overwork, and you CHOOSE the best take after scientific study or measurable results, nor is it a random or subjective choice.

No way baby ... a good producer can hear rightness and quality when she hears them!

Yet first you have to be open to the possibility that these things are available to us to even know ... otherwise life is a hell of science and logic and facts. You see where that style of perception and thinking has led if you look anywhere in the world, and it's not pretty.

[faeflora]

I think that if Brian Lucey's gear comments were Fletcher's, people wouldn't be pissed off. Yay for speaking your opinion I say.

[Ruphus]

Then I suppose you think the 50's era farm tractors called Harley's are quality too?

Chrome and cool don't make it quality.

I think you have a point there.

it was a Harley and a BMW or a Triumph is a qualitatively better bike.

I you left big companies out, because they would not be capable for quality making then you wouldn´t be aware about Honda. While they had a bad image once and were known for typically leak cylinder-head gasket since a while now they have become high quality producers, I would say.
There is no reason anymore to assume that any newer BMW and less a Triumph would be lasting longer than a late Honda bike.

Just like with Toyota who have become high quality car producers, while BMW, Mercedes and Yaguar had their miserable periods and still are not up to par with Toyotas durability statistics. ( Granted that BMW has much come forward since early eighties though.)
All this while Toyota is the biggest manufacturer of all if I´m not mistaking here.

I point to this, because craftmanship often is an indicator for quality, but it is no real principle. After all mashines can work much more precisely than any human.
I think what makes the difference is how the production process is managed and how the mashine work is controlled.

Its not all like it is with bread and wine which unquestionably taste better when produced manually. Although you never know if the people who stamped the vine had washed their feet before.


At the end Harley should have more handwork in it than most other brands, but it ought to be technically the most unreliable vehicle I know of in the western world ( since FIAT has improved their QC ).

BTW, I don´t doubt on your findings about the mics, simply because I can´t know, but only imagine, and I hope I can compare before the day I would grab into that partition of the shelf.

But what you said about quality in a way sounds a little bit snobbish too me, because the criteria you mentioned seem not absolute reason, while buying from small manufacturers for highest price would be.

If that was no motivation nor anything else however, I think it just alright that you have your opinion after practical comparison and defend it. If it is indeed only about the mics and trying to point away from the common image, that would be just good for us who like to hear of all kind of experiences out there.

Ruphus

[Exmun]

Great analogies Brian... but in all of your opining, you have pointed to no "factors" to measure "quality" objectively. I like it that you have a strong opinion about the Korby. It certainly has made me interested in checking it out. BUT, even your suggestion of "build quality" is all but subjective unless you provide some factors to measure it by. The most problematic part of your posts is that they purport objectivity while cloaked in subjective opinions.

[chap]

I was hoping to see if I need a Korby to supplement my'Gold Ref, Lawson, C12, Neumanns and ribbons and all I get is a pssing match?
any real info?
Back to the Gold Ref.............
peace,
chap

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by lucey
well if you want to defend the H2 go ahead. Yet 10 MPG in 2004 ? ... a war vehicle chromed up for the road?

actually, i was talking about the H1... the H2 isnt a REAL hummer. since when does MPG factor into quality?

[michael c]

One of the many drags about this thread is it makes the Korby mic guilty by association.

As someone who purchased the Korby mic with the 251 & 67M caps six months ago, let me say that it is truly a great mic. I've rented and borrowed a couple of different Soundeluxe mics and thought they were terrific as well.

The Korby is well worth the money. I have never owned a Soundeluxe mic but can't imagine not being thrilled with such a top quality piece.

A lot of energy has been wasted on this pissing match; audio choices are always so subjective. I suggest renting or borrowing anything that is expensive and seeing if it will work for you.

Now onto ProTools versus the world thread...............

[kevinc]

Originally posted by loudist
Lucey, my inbox is full, here and at PSW.
Do you know why? It is full of requests/complaints from many who haven't even posted in this thread to rip you a new one like was done at PSW.
Now, I don't have any real interest in fighting anyone elses battles, but I can see the reason so many are frustrated with you and your unreasonable campaign.
What started out as a comparative review turned quickly into something else... personal bashing of respected members of the audio community. Sounds familiar to me.
This was the trigger over at PSW too, same crap.
You re invented yourself over at PSW and all is fine there.
I suggest you do the same here.
You are right, there are folks here (many) that do not like your tone and approach. I do not see anyone in support of your methods.
Get a clue.
Give it a rest, your point has been invalidated, for the largest part, by your own keyboard.

Loudist ROCKS !

[lucey]

Originally posted by alphajerk
actually, i was talking about the H1... the H2 isnt a REAL hummer. since when does MPG factor into quality?

hey i agree with that.



and Exmun, there is no way to describe or prove what you're asking for ... your point is great, and true, and I'm at a loss. that's the problem, the irony of talking of quality .. it has to be known by individuals, which makes it seem subjective.

the defense rests.



thanks all, let's move on or diverge or something eh? i'm unsubscribing ... see you next time

brian

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by faeflora
I think that if Brian Lucey's gear comments were Fletcher's, people wouldn't be pissed off. Yay for speaking your opinion I say.

Lick my ass.

I was reading this thread with idle amusment, then you drag me into it. Eat my fuk.

If Brian Lucey's comments were Fletcher's, I would slice my fukking wrists why hanging from my feet and bleed out into a bucket so as not to make a mess.

FWIW... Korby sent us a rig to try. It must have been broken which is why I haven't commented on this thread. If it wasn't broken, then I would have to say that I have a pretty low opinion of their product... but I'm pretty sure the thing was broken.

They wouldn't send a replacement set for evaluation... though in conversations with Nadine Korby, it seems that Tracy wants to travel to our shop at some point and bring us product for evaluation.

At the conclusion of those evaluations, you will either see Korby product added to our roster, or you will not see Korby product added to our roster... we will have either determined that it was a worthwhile product, or a pack of hooey.

Either way... please, leave me the fuk out of this nightmare thread.

....and now back to our regularly scheduled penis envy festival already in progress.

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by lucey


I honestly think they are all overpriced. $4500 for that 251? ... if i ever come to see that differently, I will write a genuflecting (sp?) letter to Bock and post a giant recall on this board.

If their 47 comes to sound like less than a colorful 10k hyped mic and more like a vintage recreation, i will do the same.

How will you know?

-R

[Exmun]

Originally posted by lucey
and Exmun, there is no way to describe or prove what you're asking for ... your point is great, and true, and I'm at a loss. that's the problem, the irony of talking of quality .. it has to be known by individuals, which makes it seem subjective.

I beg to differ. The reason why what I'm asking for cannot be described or proven IS because what you described was subjective. That's been the point of most folks so far...

If, for example, you were to turn up with a way to measure "immediacy," I'd be happy to change my tune and agree with you that "highest quality" or "high quality" is in fact an objective term and not just your personal opinion.

Remember, there's nothing wrong with that opinion... as long as you're not trying to pass it off as something else... (like objectivity).

[Magic Genie]

Anybody know of a way to for me to hear one of these things?

I'm getting Korby fever.

[BradD]

Genie, I'm sure some studios in Nashville have them. In fact, I know that I called a studio in Nashville prior to purchasing my Korby mics. I had no experience with high end mics prior to buying mine, but I did a lot of research and then bought on faith. I haven't been disappointed. I know the Soundelux and Lawson offerings are also excellent, but I thought the economics of it made the Korby a better deal. I also love being able to change out the four heads simply without changing mics. It's very convenient when you're auditioning vocal mics.

I'm looking forward to Fletcher getting to hear one. I don't think he'll be disappointed.

[beats workin']

you guys have way too much free time. go back to recording. how could this thread get so convoluted? i was skimming through and was just shaking my head and moaning. i have an e47 and a u195. while i agree that the shockmounts really are crap, the mics are excellent. both of them see continuous use in my studio.
soundelux, korby, lawson, etc. are doing us a great service- starting up their own small companies to built their own designs- quite often with beautiful results. either you like the product, or not. that is your personal preference. this ridiculous nagging is nothing but a waste of time.