Lower frequency always sounding out of tune

[Stoneroses6300]

I don't know if this may be a room problem but everytime I play a lower F# on the bass in a song it sounds out of tune even though it is perfectly in tune and in intonation..I have found in my mixes that every time a part of a song in the key of F# and the notes are being played in the lower part of the E string it sounds out...I'm starting to think it's a room issue..It's when the F# is sustained that it sounds out...the Lower G sometimes acts this way also...So yeah...lower frequencys G and under..Let me know...Thanks again..

[Empty Planet]

There are some room wave interference patterns that do this. I'm going to hazard a guess that you don't have a lot of bass treatment in this room. Don't remember the dynamic involved. Send a message to Ethan Winer. I believe he discussed this phenomenon briefly during his interview on the PSN podcast.


Cheers.

[nlc201]

Perhaps it's a room mode that closely corresponds (but not exactly) to the fundamental, or more likely, the second or third harmonic. A resonance at a frequency just slightly off from the properly tuned harmonc could cause a sense of tuning problems. Does it sound out of tune when you listen standing in other places in the room?

[woomanmoomin]

Well then, if it's likely to be a room problem, and roses isn't about to spend loads of money getting the room treated, he can at least experiment with amp placement to try and lessen the problem. I would start by raising the amp if it's on the floor right now. That will minimise some of the room reflections, roses, but you will have to listen to tell if they're the ones that are troubling you.

This is the darnedest thing. I must be so lucky not to have had problems like this.

Sorry, roses.

[Stoneroses6300]

Originally Posted by Empty Planet

There are some room wave interference patterns that do this. I'm going to hazard a guess that you don't have a lot of bass treatment in this room. Don't remember the dynamic involved. Send a message to Ethan Winer. I believe he discussed this phenomenon briefly during his interview on the PSN podcast.


Cheers.

No, I don't have any bass treatment...It's when I'm monitoring bass specifically...The low F#...It's through my Event monitors...SP8's...

[woomanmoomin]

What happens if you play the same note on a keyboard? Or if you generate a sine wave at that same frequency or something (about 46 Hz for F#, 49 for G)? Do you get the same effect when you listen to it?

[Kiwiburger]

Just f#, or "lower frequencys G and under" ... and are they percieved as flat or sharp?

If it's low notes appearing sharp, it may just be the effect of monitoring too loud. This effect is very noticable when playing synth bass with headphones - it's easy to hear the low notes as being a semitone out if they are too loud.

Bad room acoustics tend to cause ringing on certain notes - or dips or peaks on certain notes. In some cases a particularly resonant node close to a musical note could perhaps bend a bass guitar note. But if this is occuring at mix time, and your tuner tells you the notes is in tune, it's not likely that room acoustics could actually bend the note. It's more likely that it's an illusion in your ear.

You ear has hairs that vibrate at specific frequencies, and if the volume is too loud, adjacent hairs get vibrated too (especially in the bass notes that have a lot of energy). This fools you into hearing a different note.

Maybe bring out some higher harmonics (or create some with distortion) to give your brain more clues to pitch the note.

Also remember that a plucked string has a sharp attack and the pitch falls away. If you tune on the tails of notes, but play fast and percussive, the bass will be sharp anyway. Tune to the type of playing style.

[manofsong]

All this talk about the room isn't necessarily the answer. My keyboardist used to play some very low bass notes and in certain songs and there would be the same sense that it was out of tune -- under MANY rooms and circumstances, including recording direct. I know somebody else has a better answer on this matter physics-wise. We tried to solve the issue by just having him play an octave up. Sure, it didn't sound the same emotionally, but bye-bye tuning problem.

[woomanmoomin]

Now that I think about it, I'm used to hearing bass notes apparently out of tune... when there's some loud music nearby, probably the other side of at least one wall, and I have to get closer to the music to hear some treble just to work out what the heck is going on in the bass... what key it's in, even. But I've never just heard some bass notes as out of tune. Interesting.

[Stu Gutz]

Originally Posted by Stoneroses6300

I don't know if this may be a room problem but everytime I play a lower F# on the bass in a song it sounds out of tune even though it is perfectly in tune and in intonation..I have found in my mixes that every time a part of a song in the key of F# and the notes are being played in the lower part of the E string it sounds out...I'm starting to think it's a room issue..It's when the F# is sustained that it sounds out...the Lower G sometimes acts this way also...So yeah...lower frequencys G and under..Let me know...Thanks again..

You sure it's not a problem with the bass itself? Could the frets be worn in that area? Maybe a problem with the E string too high at the nut?

I would check with a tuner as you play an open E -> F -> F# etc. and see for sure.

[matt thomas]

nodes can do this, as ethan said check it with another instrrument

octave effects make things sound out sometimes

you may just have really good ears, check out the buzz felton tuning system, which basically claims that ALL basses (except buzz felton ones) will be out of tune on the first couple of frets

also watch how hard you are playing, you may be making the note sharp by hitting it too hard

maybe your strings are light gauge, try heavier ones (if the note actually IS out of tune), remember to check the intonation when changing strings

check the note on a good tuner as you are playing it (in the same manner), if it is out then tune it as you are playing it (the f#)

narco

[Raw-Tracks]

As suggested, check those notes with a tuner. If those those notes are going sharp on the tuner, tell the player to not press so hard on those ntoes. Common problem on a poorly set up intrument.

[ssaudio]

the perceived pitch of high and low notes is nearly always 'out', especially as volume increases (which is obviously different for everyone) - it's a known phenomenon.

That's not to say the instrument's output shouldn't be checked and it could be a room resonance too, but the 'simple' reason shouldn't be ignored either...

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by nlc201

Perhaps it's a room mode that closely corresponds (but not exactly) to the fundamental, or more likely, the second or third harmonic. A resonance at a frequency just slightly off from the properly tuned harmonc could cause a sense of tuning problems.

Yes, exactly. When you play a note in a room, and the room resonates at a nearby frequency, the room vibrates sympathetically at its own pitch. Bass traps will indeed help this.

--Ethan

[DigitMus]

Don't ignore the possibility that you're hearing the harmonics (which, depending on the physical characteristics of the resonator - i.e. bass - may not be exact multiples of the fundamental freq.). This is why pianos are "stretch' tuned - if you tune each string's fundamental frequency exactly using a strobe, it would sound horrible. Your ears are far less sensitive to lower frequencies (see the Fletcher-Munson curve) so you may be getting your tuning cues from the higher frequencies of the overtones.

Just a thought.

Scott

[ilovemusic]

Mathematically perfect tuning is always a compromise so you can modulate in all keys... you'll never be perfectly in tune if you tune according to a tuner.. maybe that's the issue at hand..just a thought