Tracking real drums over programmed drums?

[mcballs]

Anyone have any luck tracking real drums over programmed drums in pop/rock? For example, I have some songs recorded with programmed drums (I use BFD and try to make them sound like read ones), and would like to get some real drums with a good drummer tracked over top, and then throw out the programmed ones. Is this something that is commonplace in pop/rock production these days? I like working with programmed drums while writing, but the end result is leaves a bit to be desired

Of course we want real drums for the groove... does it destroy the groove of real drums to have them recorded while referencing an existing track?

What about the other tracks in the song... bass, guitar, vocals... would they have to be re-tracked to fit back in the pocket with the new drums?

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

[ellipse]

Originally Posted by mcballs

Anyone have any luck tracking real drums over programmed drums in pop/rock? For example, I have some songs recorded with programmed drums (I use BFD and try to make them sound like read ones), and would like to get some real drums with a good drummer tracked over top, and then throw out the programmed ones. Is this something that is commonplace in pop/rock production these days? I like working with programmed drums while writing, but the end result is leaves a bit to be desired

Of course we want real drums for the groove... does it destroy the groove of real drums to have them recorded while referencing an existing track?

What about the other tracks in the song... bass, guitar, vocals... would they have to be re-tracked to fit back in the pocket with the new drums?

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

why not just have the drummer learn the programmed track and have him play it?

[mcballs]

Originally Posted by staywhereican

why not just have the drummer learn the programmed track and have him play it?

Because it would be nice to keep the rest of the tracks in the song, if possible. But not at the expense of the groove.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by mcballs

Of course we want real drums for the groove... does it destroy the groove of real drums to have them recorded while referencing an existing track?

Nope. A groove can happen within perfect meter as a lot of it has to do with the push and pull of various elements of the part.

You could feed the drummer the BFD part as a click.

Can the dude groove and can he play to a click?

[Jazzpunk]

The only real variable here is how good the drummer is and how comfortable he is with what you are asking of him. If he can nail it, you won't have any problems. If he can't then something like Beat Detective will be your best friend. If the drummer really adds something you like but makes the other elements seem off in some sections, you can always adjust those with Melodyne.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by mcballs

Anyone have any luck tracking real drums over programmed drums in pop/rock? For example, I have some songs recorded with programmed drums (I use BFD and try to make them sound like read ones), and would like to get some real drums with a good drummer tracked over top, and then throw out the programmed ones. Is this something that is commonplace in pop/rock production these days? I like working with programmed drums while writing, but the end result is leaves a bit to be desired

Of course we want real drums for the groove... does it destroy the groove of real drums to have them recorded while referencing an existing track?

What about the other tracks in the song... bass, guitar, vocals... would they have to be re-tracked to fit back in the pocket with the new drums?

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

This is extremely common in modern pop rock production. In fact, among the big name act, it's probably done this way nearly 100% of the time.

It's also common to keep some of the programmed drums, like intro and first verso programmed then the chorus is the live drums, second verse varies and then live or live and programmed out.

[mcballs]

Hey guys,

The drummer would be a hired session player, so yeah... he can groove.

Thanks alot!

[octatonic]

It depends on the drummer.
Most can't pull it off if I am honest - and then you have to go about editing the bejesus out of it.

I've been lucky to work with one particular guy who is stunningly good at taking my hackneyed programmed drums and working magic on them.
Everytime I track with him I'm so blown away it is like being drunk/stoned at the same time.
He never listens much to the programmed drums- and i only give him a click to work with.

In short- yes I think this is how a lot of people work these days.

[studilaroche]

I've done this before. In particular, I worked on an album by an electro-pop/rock band (i guess that's what they'd be called) that every song had loooped drums with acoustic drums. The electronic parts were mostly done by the time I got involved. We recorded live drums to the electronic drums - then we used beat detective to tighten up everything. This was on a Mix+/OS9 PT system; it took a while to edit everything together. It can be done, and can be very cool. Don't be afraid to dive in and do everthing you think it might take to make it happen well.
As far as retracking other instrument ot fit the new groove - record the drums and then see how it works. It should be obvious if you need to re-record. If the drummer is very good - in my experience, probably not.
Ben

[obostic]

If the groove is what the song is all about, try replacing the cymbals and hats with real ones and sound replace the snare and kick. This way your groove is preserved. In most cases, the drummer has his own idea about what the groove should be and this may or may not work with your song. Good luck!

[Kiwiburger]

Any good session drummer should be able to sync to a 'click track'.

IMO, a literal "click clack" click track is a mistake - that sounds like torture to me.

IMO, it's also a mistake to send him programmed drums (kick, snare, hats etc) and tom fills are especially wrong.

IMO it's best to create a submix for the drummer that emphasises bass and rhythmn keyboardand/or guitar parts, and guide vocals and other important parts you don't want him to play over.

You could perhaps add some percussion just as a clik track - cowbell, shaker. Stuff that plays against the beat is easier to hear. Stuff like kick and snare, the drummer can't really hear because he is playing on top of it.

You can always cut & paste loops of the live playing. Or quantise the live playing. or track individual drums.

Lots of options.

[NathanEldred]

If the guy is a pro he'll pull it off pretty quickly. Maybe give him a quick rough mix of the song and he will come in and nail it, and have options/variations for you. Programmed drums are just a fancy click.

[Slaytex]

This is always how I record my band. I personally love playing last as I get to here how all the parts play with eachother in the end and it also makes it much easier for me because it feels like i'm playing with the band and not a click. I generally just leave the HH on the programmed track. Groove agent is great for this as it locks to the project tempo track and is very fast to setup.

[macr0w]

I am a drummer and I do this all the time. I will make a beat for everyone else to play with and compose with and when it gets back around to me again, I use it for a click track. I would much rather use a simulated drumset for a click than "marimba 2" if you know what I mean.