Recorderman overheads technique: important question

[Kroy]

I've watched the Youtube movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

See 0.55 secs into the movie - when he moves the string over to mic 2.

Having both mics EXACTLY the same distances - eg 127 cm to kick, and 80 cm to snare, would seem to be physically impossible, unless they're both on the same side.

So at 0.55 secs is his finger 'slipping' through the string?


Here's an example of my measurements:

mic 1 (left of drummer)
distance from kick: 127 cm
distance from snare: 80 cm

mic 2 (right of drummer)
distance from kick: 109 cm
distance from snare: 98 cm

If you add up both sets of figures they both come to 207 cm.

Is this the correct way to do this?


I can't see there's any other way, unless you have both mics on the same side.

And actually the recording I did sounded pretty good.

[drBill]

What's hard to tell from the video is that the second mic (the one not over the snare) is back and behind the drummers right shoulder. Moving it back like that will allow you to keep the measurements exact. Trying to get it over the floor tom won't. Hope that helps.

[Han]

Also funny is to see that the right side oh mic moves up and down when he's playing.

I've been using an ORTF pair of SDC's now for many years and still like it very much. I also use SDC's as spot mics on hi hat and ride cymbal in order to be able to lift that ping when needed.

[fanriffic]

hi kroy..so re:your original question;no-what you described isn't the right way.
The whole idea is to keep each mic the same distance from the snare and the kick,so that the sound from the kick and the snare reach each one at exactly the same time.This is what gives it 'phase coherency'.
You can of course use larger measurements if that makes it easier,the two drum stick method is just an quick way to get an approx suitable distance,the important thing is both both mics are the same distance from each.
fanny

[Kroy]

I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong. This just doesn't seem possible.

It doesn't seem possible because the bass drum is further away than the snare, and to the right of the snare.

Any attempt to move the string-point towards the right immediately decreases the distance from the kick and increases the distance from the snare.

The only way that I can see this would be possible is if the bass and kick were at the same point in space.

Could someone please try this and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Kroy

I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong. This just doesn't seem possible.

It doesn't seem possible because the bass drum is further away than the snare, and to the right of the snare.

Any attempt to move the string-point towards the right immediately decreases the distance from the kick and increases the distance from the snare.

The only way that I can see this would be possible is if the bass and kick were at the same point in space.

Could someone please try this and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but your misconception seems to be about 'equidistance'. It's NOT about both distances (snare to Mic 1 + 2 / kick to mic 1+ 2) being the same but rather about :

a) snare center to Mic 1 and snare center to Mic 2 being equal distance.

b) kick center to Mic 1 and kick center to Mic 2 being equal distance.

The 'equal distances' of a) and b) are NOT the same though, maybe that's the thing you misunderstood.

[DeadPoet]

What doorknocker says. Your Mic#1 doesn't necessarely have to be right over the snare, that makes things a little more complicated.

I've been using this method in small (low) rooms with a very nice kit sound, but I always end up with a lot of HiHat (vs cymbals)... anyone else noticing this, or am I doing something wrong ?

Great technique for not-so-great sounding rooms though.


Herwig

[Kroy]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but your misconception seems to be about 'equidistance'. It's NOT about both distances (snare to Mic 1 + 2 / kick to mic 1+ 2) being the same but rather about :

a) snare center to Mic 1 and snare center to Mic 2 being equal distance.

b) kick center to Mic 1 and kick center to Mic 2 being equal distance.

The 'equal distances' of a) and b) are NOT the same though, maybe that's the thing you misunderstood.

No, I realise that the equal (sum) distance of a) is not the same as b).

But something I've come to realise is that there are specific points in space where this will work and won't work. To illustrate: visualise two circles surrounding both kick and snare, with kick and snare being the centre of each circle. Depending on the size of each circle, there are only two specific points where the two circles meet - ie have equidistance to both kick and snare.

If anyone wants to PM their email address to me I can email you this diagram to show you what I mean.

[cheeky b]

Originally Posted by Kroy

But something I've come to realise is that there are specific points in space where this will work and won't work. To illustrate: visualise two circles surrounding both kick and snare, with kick and snare being the centre of each circle. Depending on the size of each circle, there are only two specific points where the two circles meet - ie have equidistance to both kick and snare.

I think your overcomplicating things a bit. To illustrate, loosely hold a piece of string on a table at both ends with one hand so that the ends are apart. With a finger from the other hand pick up the string somewhere off centre and pull it so that it's tight in both strands. With your finger you can describe an arc whilst still keeping both strands taut. The longer the sides, the bigger the arc.

I was game to try the technique this week on a session but the engineer wanted to use a C 24 instead - it was kind of hard to argue with!

[Riddler]

The link to the video won't work for me at the moment - in fact youtube doesn't seem to be there. Can everyone else see the video?

edit: OK sorry it was me being an idiot!

[Windtaken]

Originally Posted by Kroy

No, I realise that the equal (sum) distance of a) is not the same as b).

But something I've come to realise is that there are specific points in space where this will work and won't work. To illustrate: visualise two circles surrounding both kick and snare, with kick and snare being the centre of each circle. Depending on the size of each circle, there are only two specific points where the two circles meet - ie have equidistance to both kick and snare.

If anyone wants to PM their email address to me I can email you this diagram to show you what I mean.

I believe I know what your diagram is showing without seeing it.

Yes, there are two points in space if you think in two dimensions. However, when you think in three dimensions, there is a whole plane of space slicing through at any angle you choose. This whole plane allows you to put the mics anywhere on a circle being transcribed by the string. The two points that you are seeing in your two dimensional diagram would connect to be the diameter of that circle.

Of course, you can't put the mic anywhere on the circle because some part of it transcribes into the ground. If you still can't see it, try imagining this circle standing vertically with the endpoints at where your two points are drawn on your diagram.

[jeronimo]

Isn't this technique supposed to be easy to set?? :)
You lost me on the math...

[andychamp]

In another thread, I've seen it described like this: the string forms an inverted "V", with the 1st mic at the top and the 2 drums (kick & snare) at the base.
Now you can move the top of the V to a whole lot (infinity, actually) of points that are all at the same distance from both drums as mic #1.

The trick lies in finding the 2 spots that'll sound the best.

[drBill]

Kroy, it's simple really. Honest. Once you realize that the two dimensions HAVE to be the same for perfect phase coherence, yoou will find that you can "swing" the "arc" of the string in many places while holding the upper apex of the "triangle". The place that normally works best for people is over the Right shoulder of the drummer. Check it out. You'll figure it out. Just swing the arc of the triangle. Don't be so concerned about where you "want" the mics to be as to where they naturally end up in the "arc" of the dimensions. Once you figure that out, you'll know where to put the mic(s).

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Kroy

No, I realise that the equal (sum) distance of a) is not the same as b).

With a small o medium size kit (i.e supposing you're recording neither Billy Cobham nor Terry Bozzio), I'll put one mic pointed straight down to the snare at about 2 - 2.5 drumstick's length. This is the 'no-brainer' mic and will be my reference point for the second mic. I then tape a mic cable to the snare (center point/where the drummer commonly hits) and mark the point where the over-snare mic is. Usually I just put my fingers there and then swing the cable towards the point where the drummer's right ear is and put the second mic there, ready to be fine-tuned later. (That's for a right-handed setup).

Next you tape the same mic cable to the point on the bass drum where the beater hits the skin (you might just hold it in place with the beater while seated behind the drums)
Now you'll mark the point on the mic cable where the over-snare mic is and then swing the cable towards the right-ear mic. Next you'll adjust this mic till it works for both the snare and bass drum distance. If it doesn't work then adjust the height of the over-snare mic, you might want to change that anyway because of too much or too little cymbals (the latter admittingly being a fantasy). So I'd let the drummer bash away a bit anyway before you enter anal fine-tuning mode. if it sounds good just leave it like it is.

It's no big deal really, lately I've been able to set up the two mics 'blind' and they were perfectly equidistance after re-checking with the mic cable. But this also tells me that I probably should try other OH setups in the future.

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

With a small o medium size kit (i.e supposing you're recording neither Billy Cobham nor Terry Bozzio), I'll put one mic pointed straight down to the snare at about 2 - 2.5 drumstick's length. This is the 'no-brainer' mic and will be my reference point for the second mic. I then tape a mic cable to the snare (center point/where the drummer commonly hits) and mark the point where the over-snare mic is. Usually I just put my fingers there and then swing the cable towards the point where the drummer's right ear is and put the second mic there, ready to be fine-tuned later. (That's for a right-handed setup).

Next you tape the same mic cable to the point on the bass drum where the beater hits the skin (you might just hold it in place with the beater while seated behind the drums)
Now you'll mark the point on the mic cable where the over-snare mic is and then swing the cable towards the right-ear mic. Next you'll adjust this mic till it works for both the snare and bass drum distance. If it doesn't work then adjust the height of the over-snare mic, you might want to change that anyway because of too much or too little cymbals (the latter admittingly being a fantasy). So I'd let the drummer bash away a bit anyway before you enter anal fine-tuning mode. if it sounds good just leave it like it is.

It's no big deal really, lately I've been able to set up the two mics 'blind' and they were perfectly equidistance after re-checking with the mic cable. But this also tells me that I probably should try other OH setups in the future.

just like I thought it would be!!!! great post.
I don't think it can get more simple...

[Brian Middleton]

Kroy, I think where you're getting confused is here:

Any attempt to move the string-point towards the right immediately decreases the distance from the kick and increases the distance from the snare.

Don't try to move it "towards the right." Don't try to move it in any particular direction. Just let it swing in the arc it wants to, making sure you're holding it in exactly the same spot as it swings around. Like drBill said, the arc moves towards the area over and behind the drummer's right shoulder. It looks odd, but it works.

Deciding where along the arc to stop & place the second mic is the trial & error part. You can usually get pretty close just by eye (you can see when you're in a good spot for the mic to get a good "look" at the right half of the kit), but of course you need to check by ear.

[andychamp]

Another, related, question just occured to me: now that we know where to place the mics, where do we aim them at?

Or maybe it's just time to get out those omnis...

[Benmrx]

This method quickly became my favorite for drums. As long as it's a fairly open song (I.E. not quad tracking metal guitars), and I don't need close mic'd toms.

I find I'm usually about 35" or so from the snare with each mic. The first is pretty much pointed straight down at the snare, or with a heavy hat drummer, maybe tilt the mic so it's slanted away from the hi hats just a bit. The second mic is pretty much right around the drummers right shoulder........or fairly close to it, and aimed more towards the floor tom than anything else, but not by much.

I'll usually have a mic on the top or bottom of the snare, and one on the kick as well as a mono room mic.....which is usually an SM57 or D112 pointed away from the kit, and smashed to hell with a fast compressor......this mic is labled shit drums and doubles as my talk back

[yk_42]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

I've been using this method in small (low) rooms with a very nice kit sound, but I always end up with a lot of HiHat (vs cymbals)... anyone else noticing this, or am I doing something wrong ?

This mic technique requires the drummer to play with good balance, so it's not you doing anything wrong, assuming you're not the one playing the drums. The only thing you can do is tell the drummer to lay off the hats or purchase a quieter set of hats.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

I've been using this method in small (low) rooms with a very nice kit sound, but I always end up with a lot of HiHat (vs cymbals)... anyone else noticing this, or am I doing something wrong ?

Besides the drummer hitting the hi-hat too hard and the hi-hat itself being too heavy/shrill - I guess we all know these 'situations' quite well- what you shouldn't forget is that the room reflections will play a big part in the sound. The 'Recorderman' technique can work great but it's also a theory, in real life there will be all kinds of room reflections and obviously very different ones for bass frequencies vs. cymbals/hats that will mess with the phase.

The same goes for shifting drum tracks in a DAW, IBP, etc. These are all great tools but you still have to accept a certain randomness to the sound and in the end it's all about experimentation.

As far as hi-hat ugliness is concerned, it's always a snare mic bleed thing for me and never in the OHs. Using a Beyer M201 instead of a 57 on snare has helped me some with hi-hat bashers.

[jbuntz]

Weird. I came up with the same technique on my own.

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

This method quickly became my favorite for drums. As long as it's a fairly open song (I.E. not quad tracking metal guitars), and I don't need close mic'd toms.

I find I'm usually about 35" or so from the snare with each mic. The first is pretty much pointed straight down at the snare, or with a heavy hat drummer, maybe tilt the mic so it's slanted away from the hi hats just a bit. The second mic is pretty much right around the drummers right shoulder........or fairly close to it, and aimed more towards the floor tom than anything else, but not by much.

I'll usually have a mic on the top or bottom of the snare, and one on the kick as well as a mono room mic.....which is usually an SM57 or D112 pointed away from the kit, and smashed to hell with a fast compressor......this mic is labled shit drums and doubles as my talk back

what technique do you use with heavy shit?

[666666]

That string technique is cool, but...

Since the mics are pointing at an angle to each other, I'd think there is still some level of phase imperfection between the two.

To exaggerate my point, when you have a snare top mic pointing directly at a snare bottom mic, they're 180 degrees out and will just about canel each other out (and you have to flip the phase to get it right). So... when you have mics that are say even just 90 degrees or 50 degrees out from each other (spaced apart and pointing at the same object), there would still be some level of phase imperfection.

The string method gets the TIMING (TIME that the signals arrive at the mics) as good as possible but doesn't eliminate ALL phase imperfection. Of course, a Little Labs Phase Tool would come in handy here and would help deal with the resulting phase imperfection.

Also, the timing itself is not too much of a problem anyway since in most DAWs, it is super easy to nudge tracks around by milliseconds or even samples until you get things lined up just right per ear (or even visually on screen, but doing by ear is always better of course). The string method is really more useful when recording live to tape where time alignment / nudging will not be possible later. But in a typical studio situation, it almost always IS possible.

To eliminate all phase related headaches on overheads, I still use XY, keeping the heads of the two mics as close to each other as possible. Then you need not worry about any of this. If placed right and with the right mics, you still get a super wide ultra stereo capture of the kit with XY... no strings attached!

Regardless of whether you use the string method with a spaced pair, or XY, you'll still have phase challenges when you bring in the close mics... but these days, with the ability to time align in DAWs, plus the existance of the Little Labs Phase Tools, things can be dialed in quite nicely without too much grief.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by 666666

The string method gets the TIMING (TIME that the signals arrive at the mics) as good as possible but doesn't eliminate ALL phase imperfection.

Unless you like one mono mic, you're going to have - at the very least - minute phase inconsistancies. So what? It's part of the "sound" we have come to know as recorded drums. Check phase, do a mono overall check and if it sounds good.......it sounds good. problem solved.

[Kroy]

Thanks for all your replies to my original post.

Going back to the original string/mic position issue I was trying to understand:

I position my snare to the left of my kick. This limits the arc width (from left to right). If the snare was positioned directly in front of the kick I'd have more 'width' to play with. But my available arc is more diagonal to the kit.

What this means is if I have a mic over my right shoulder, the other mic has to go almost directly over the snare, but slightly to the snare's right. ie both mics are over to the right.

It's impossible for me to have one mic left and the other mic right, and satisfy the recorderman rules.

....Because my snare is over to the left of the kick.

I've tried this a number of times now. With a kit, string and mics.

Please try this yourselves. Position the snare to the left of the kick, but in front of the kick - the usual postion - and check the available arc.

if you can find two points that are both behind, and to the left and right of the drummer, as far as I can tell you must be defying the laws of geometry.

The arc swings diagonally from behind right to front left, and vice versa.

But it won't swing from behind right to behind left.

But perhaps it's not meant to do that...?

[Blast9]

*********************************************

Can you post a quick video what you're doing?

*********************************************


As you already know the idea is to get a good tight stereo image.

The kik being in the centre of the kit will therefore be in the middle of the stereo image in your cans/monitors but the snare will be left.

I'm Trying to figure out your "arc" issue:

The "left" mic is placed directly above the snare, quite low (2 stick lengths). --- i.e. in front of and above the drummer

Although directly above the snare, it will of course pick up the hats to the left, the kik and other stuff to the right to varying degrees, as will your left ear



The "right" mic will also be picking up everything from left to right, as will your right ear. This is also 2 stick lengths away, but at an angle, as you know. The mic capsule is also pointing at the snare.

The reason the 2 mics will both be so close to the snare and to eachother is to get a tight natural stereo image from drummer perspective, with no holes in the centre image.

Hence the reason why the "right" mic is behind the drummer's right shoulder.

I agree it looks unnatural, but it works really well for that "natural" sound.

[Kroy]

Originally Posted by Blast9

*********************************************

Can you post a quick video what you're doing?

*********************************************


As you already know the idea is to get a good tight stereo image.

The kik being in the centre of the kit will therefore be in the middle of the stereo image in your cans/monitors but the snare will be left.

I'm Trying to figure out your "arc" issue:

The "left" mic is placed directly above the snare, quite low (2 stick lengths). --- i.e. in front of and above the drummer

Although directly above the snare, it will of course pick up the hats to the left, the kik and other stuff to the right to varying degrees, as will your left ear



The "right" mic will also be picking up everything from left to right, as will your right ear. This is also 2 stick lengths away, but at an angle, as you know. The mic capsule is also pointing at the snare.

The reason the 2 mics will both be so close to the snare and to eachother is to get a tight natural stereo image from drummer perspective, with no holes in the centre image.

Hence the reason why the "right" mic is behind the drummer's right shoulder.

I agree it looks unnatural, but it works really well for that "natural" sound.

Thanks, Blast9! I think I've got it now.

I had mic1 too far to the left (not directly over the snare as you say). Now I've put mic1 directly over the snare, mic2 can swing round to just over my right shoulder. I need a few inches more than two stick lengths or mic2 is too low and my head touches it occasionally.

But I think I've got the basic positions now.

Gratitude to all who've helped.

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by Kroy

(...)The arc swings diagonally from behind right to front left, and vice versa.
But it won't swing from behind right to behind left.
But perhaps it's not meant to do that...?

Exactamundo!

One mic will be above and slightly in front and left of you, the other one behind your right shoulder.
It'll never look like OH's the way you're used to.

[midigod]

Originally Posted by 666666

Also, the timing itself is not too much of a problem anyway since in most DAWs, it is super easy to nudge tracks around by milliseconds or even samples until you get things lined up just right per ear (or even visually on screen, but doing by ear is always better of course). The string method is really more useful when recording live to tape where time alignment / nudging will not be possible later. But in a typical studio situation, it almost always IS possible.

The nudging of tracks will not solve the problem that the string method solves. The issue the string method addresses is the fact that the snare <i>and</i> kick arrive at the two mics at different times. If it were just one source in the two mics, like the snare, you could nudge one of the tracks. But you can't nudge to solve the snare at 1ms difference, and fix the kick at 2.4 ms at the same time.

-Craig