Getting Daniel Lanois' 'The Messenger' intro guitar tone?

[Vinrockindie]

I've been listening to a lot of Daniel Lanois' solo work lately, and while my title asks about one song in particular, I'm interested in how he obtains that beautiful slightly overdriven/raw/delayed sound.

The introduction on 'The Messenger' is what I'm talking about, and that tone pops up quite a bit on his material. 'Lotta Love To Give' & 'Sonho Dourado' are two other fine examples.

Beautiful work.

Does anyone know how he gets THAT tone? Or close to it.

[lucey]

I dont know that song but in general he uses 1x 12" combo amps, dimed ... Gibson GA 20 or 50 was a fave at one time. He also used the 1U Ensoniq DP Pro (a bitch to program but nice ambient delays) along with pedals like the EH Memory Man and all the Lovetone stuff. As for guitars I'm guessing his LesPauls have the Jimmy Page set up.

[The Reel Thing]

Hi there,

Daniel Lanois' guitar sound as of 'For The Beauty Of Wynona' is, besides his wonderful playing and distinctive tone, a lot related to P-90 sort of pickups as well as a great VOX AC30 from the early 60s.

I've tried my butt off on other AC30s, I've tried aging the speakers, I've thrown everything out that doesn't belong in the circuit, I've tried every valve from Mullards to Telefunkens to whatever. You just don't get there, no way ray.

There's something about these early 60's AC30s that the later ones just don't have. It might have a lot to do with the output transformer (Woden is very recommendable) and the point to point wiring, but in the end it must be more than that. Two of my friends have old AC30s, one from '63, the other from '64. They both have it - I plug my 1961 Les Paul Special in - instant Lanois type of response.

Lanois' amp, which I saw on several occasions, because my friend worked as a guitar tech for him, is a very early non-top boost model with the top boost module fitted in later.
But he doesn't even use the brilliant channel, he goes 'normal' with just the CUT for EQ. These early AC30s have so much treble, if you play a newer one side by side, it sounds as if you put a blanket over it! These old ones are also the amps that will give you the typical wonderful U2 sound with lots of sweet HF, on the brilliant channel though.

Ok, enough now, as a great fan of Daniel Lanois' work and a lover of AC30s I just had to say this. Peace!

[juicylime]

I'm a big Daniel Lanois fan and have read many articles over the years, I have a bit of a memory of one where he spoke about that intro tone (although I may be getting it confused with another song!). I think he played it on an amp that has gained extremely highly, was right beside him and that he physicaly played it quitely with his fingers so that he the amp was really picking up every nuance. I think he went looking for an amp that had the thinnest possible driver membrane or that he ended up fitting a cheap thin membrane into one of his amps or that it was actually done on a cheap amp. Vauge memories, I hope they help.

[supaheef]

This is probably slight off-topic, at least in relation to the specifics of the question, I just love this vid! Check the dynamics of his playing, almost entirely played with his thumb.

Bless.

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heath.

[Vinrockindie]

Beautiful playing. I love that video. I did a bit of reading around online after I posted this thread and saw an interview where he mentions the Korg SDD-3000. Will an SDD-2000 get you there?

Can his sound/tone (at least instrument related, not including his personal touch) be likened to a Korg straight into a Vox AC-30?

It's one of those guitar sounds that is ethereal, but still has it's feet on the ground. I think that's what I love about his production work. It's atmospheric, but still has a down to earth/visceral quality.

[supaheef]

The trick with the delays is to modulate them, applying chorus-style effects to the repeats only, keeping the original signal clean. I have heard Daniel Lanois mention that the sound he likes best is one he "stole" from the Edge. The Korg SDD3000 delay into an old Vox, using the very high output of the Korg to drive the Vox harder. Apparently the Korg delay can set different delay time for each stereo side, so by making the left repeat a tiny bit later than the right, you get that chorus "shimmer". Feed into a Vox in mono and you'd be pretty close.

Apparently the Edge has a volume pedal on his live rig that brings the shimmer tone in, so he musy use that on a parallel signal.

heath.

[The Reel Thing]

The Korg SDD-3000 doesn't do different delay times on 2 channels. Actually, it's a mono delay with an inverted output for stereo modulation effects. They cancel each other out if you go mono. It does have a very warm, thick sound, though, and a nice stepped HF and LF filter that makes for a tape echo-like sound.

It seems to me that Daniel Lanois would rather use that device on a console send/return basis than before his guitar amp.
One thing that I like so much about his sound, is the purity, the nakedness. The couple of times that I've seen him live, all he used on stage was a bunch of footpedals (EH Memory Man, Line 6 Delay Modeler, the Digitech pitch pedal, forgot the name, and a fuzz). Most of the time he didn't even use them (the video here is another example for that).

The shimmer in his sound is really the sound of those old Vox AC30s, no further machines needed. If you ever get a chance to use one, you will immediately know what I'm talking about.

BTW, I saw Lanois at the Belgium Rhythm'n'Blues Festival 2 years ago. Halfways through the show his AC30 gave up and they brought him a Fender Super Reverb so he could continue. The guitar sound from then on was nothing to write home about. His whole style just didn't work on the Super Reverb, not enough overtones, no feedback, completely different low end.

[Kiwiburger]

"Yeah. I started using them [SDD-3000s] shortly after first working with Edge on The Unforgettable Fire. Basically, I stole his sound. It wasn't a complicated rig: just a guitar he liked through a Korg SDD-3000 digital delay into a Vox. Three components, mono - that's it. The great thing about the Korgs is its three-position level switch, which lets you hit the amp with about 10 extra dB. It's more overdriven than if you just plugged the guitar straight into the amp, even when it's on bypass. But a lot of the guitar sounds on Achtung Baby were recorded through a Korg A3 effects processor." - Daniel Lanois, 'Guitar Player', 1993 ('U2 Producer & 6-String Wizard Daniel Lanois Says You Don't Need Big Money To Make Big Music')

... apparantly "This Message is Too Short" ... this ought to pad it out a bit ...

[Flymax]

A bunch of the earlier stuff is Bill Dillon on gtr..
Bills trick...hold your hats folks...Peavy Bandit!

[supaheef]

Originally Posted by The Reel Thing

The Korg SDD-3000 doesn't do different delay times on 2 channels. Actually, it's a mono delay with an inverted output for stereo modulation effects. They cancel each other out if you go mono. It does have a very warm, thick sound, though, and a nice stepped HF and LF filter that makes for a tape echo-like sound.

Whoops! Got that one confused with the other one they both use, TC 2290, I think? Edge has 4 of these in his live rig.

Seriously thought, just Google "daniel lanois korg" and you get plenty of references to his use of the the SDD-3000. Now his fuzz pedal is apparently a Kay Fuzz Tone, which is also used on the song Elevation by U2. It's quite rare, so they had to build the Edge one from scratch to use in his live rig. Why do all these awesome guitarists have to use such rare gear? I'm on a budget here!

In an article on the Edge (interviewed Dallas Schoo) on his live rig, Dallas makes mention of Lanois devising the "shimmer" tone with an AMS SDMX, with pitch shifting on one side. Perhaps this is a regular suspect in Daniel's guitar sound?

heath.

[The Reel Thing]

Originally Posted by supaheef

Whoops! Got that one confused with the other one they both use, TC 2290, I think? Edge has 4 of these in his live rig.

Seriously thought, just Google "daniel lanois korg" and you get plenty of references to his use of the the SDD-3000.

I have a SDD-3000 here at the studio, so I know the unit pretty well. It really is a mono unit. But it's true, it has 3-step input and output gain switches. Gotta try that one.
I read some of the Google references you mentioned - cool, lots of stuff I didn't know yet.

Originally Posted by supaheef

In an article on the Edge (interviewed Dallas Schoo) on his live rig, Dallas makes mention of Lanois devising the "shimmer" tone with an AMS SDMX, with pitch shifting on one side. Perhaps this is a regular suspect in Daniel's guitar sound?

heath.

Now, that one is a stereo beast. The Edge has had two of those in his rack for ages. You can clearly see the red digits shine in the dark of several 'Rattle & Hum' scenes.

They're great for the E-Bow-2-octaves-up stuff like on 'With Or Without You'.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by FLYMAX

A bunch of the earlier stuff is Bill Dillon on gtr..
Bills trick...hold your hats folks...Peavy Bandit!

Bill Dillion's trick is Bill Dillion. His guitar work on the first Robbie Robertson CD is wonderful

[sahiaman]

The tones you are guys are talking about is my absolute favorite guitar tone and type of playing.
The bright picking that the Edge does is part of his style of playing. He uses picks that have rivets on the part you would hold, but he uses them backwards and plucks up, creating that chimey Edge sound.
I love that sound and it sound freakin' great with a Gretsch hollow body into any a Vox AC 15, or 30.
Use a TC Electronics D/Two delay, and you got youself close.

[Vinrockindie]

I guess his tone really comes down to having great ears. I'm sure Mr. Lanois could make anything sound amazing. Well...he does!

I was listening to "Lotta Love To Give" yesterday and my brother asked me if I was listening to U2. It was during an instrumental break in the song. He doesn't even listen to U2 that much. I told him that they've worked together in the past. His response, "sounds similar...".

Do you think Daniel and The Edge sound somewhat alike, or have their own respective thing going--despite using similar gear?

PS- I bought a handful of those blue Herdim picks, and liked them more by gripping them traditionally; as opposed to the way The Edge holds them. Sometimes when the dimpled grip hit the string, the string it would grab the pick out of my hand and toss it across the room like a slingshot. Cool idea. Cool chimey tone...but a pain in the arse because of the thickness. It definitely requires more grip when you're holding it the way he does since the part of the plectrum you're "gripping" is the intended attack/smooth portion.

PPS- Pretty amazing how Daniel uses NO pick in the above video. What a guy.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by The Reel Thing

I have a SDD-3000 here at the studio, so I know the unit pretty well. It really is a mono unit. But it's true, it has 3-step input and output gain switches. Gotta try that one.
I read some of the Google references you mentioned - cool, lots of stuff I didn't know yet.



Now, that one is a stereo beast. The Edge has had two of those in his rack for ages. You can clearly see the red digits shine in the dark of several 'Rattle & Hum' scenes.

They're great for the E-Bow-2-octaves-up stuff like on 'With Or Without You'.

The Edge shimmer via his AMS unit is noticeable in many pics etc of his rig. Ive noticed over the years he has channel A set to 350ms and Channel B set to 120ms. Both flick switches are set to mix hence I guess he is blanding the channels in?? VCO is off and regen is set to 7.

Bizarely on the latest tour (Vertigo) he has changed channel A to 242ms whcih is strange after 20 years of keeping the same settings!!