limiting, clipping and smashing

[Bruce Keen]

Hi guys,

Now this is the first time I've started a thread but I really want your opinion in this level war.
I often listen to cd's whilst mixing but I'm finding it difficult to compare smashed up brick walls to my own mixes. Even with an L2 (plug-in) I can't get to the obnoxious levels on CD without everything sounding horrible. The transients on drums are just lumped off and it is so common nowadays that youngsters want that sound. It's become mainstream. I took 10 different recent albums in completely different styles and they were all crushed to various degrees. This is of major concern to me. I have experimented with a few converters and my Manley Slam does a pretty good clip. It's easy to get as loud as most cd's with it, with a lot of distortion of course but that's just my point.

1) Why wait until mastering time? Is anybody experimenting with clipping ADC's to limit a sub group of your mix like drums or vocals (or your loudest element in the mix). Is it possible that clipping like this will make clipping on the final mix less detrimental i.e. the mastering engineer will have less clipping to do to keep the record company happy. You know a bit like using limiting and compression individually rather than just plonking a SSL comp on the mix. My first experiments have been quite interesting. I think it might be possible to use clipping sparingly before mastering to get a fuller and more natural result.
Those of you who have never had their mixes clipped at mastering need not reply.

2) Which converters clip well, I mean nicely, not harsh? I know my AD8000 is awful for that and an 888 is just crap. Any pointers ? I've heard a Lexicon 20/20 that sounded allright for this. Hardware L2's (manley converters) seem to be common culprits.

3) Could this technique be used to insert across monitoring just to be able to compare to commercial CD's and also to get an idea what your mix will sound like once it's been through the mastering grinder. Is clipping the new sound on drums? Am I completely beside the point.

4) Could someone please point me to a few modern CD's that sound good and that are NOT smashed in contemporary genres (not jazz or classical). I'm having difficulty finding one top 50 CD that doesn't look like a wall. No wonder digital is being called harsh.

Any pointers from mastering guys about how to fight these level wars better would be great.
My ears are getting tired of the crush but how do you educate your clients. Kids want Loud, Loud equals Money. I'm beginning to look like an old fart when I point out smashed CD's.

On a compression sidenote I just finished a jazz album last week with no compression whatsoever (It hasn't been mastered yet!) and it was so refreshing that it sent a cleansing breeze through my ears. Probably won't get heavy rotation though. When I retire that's the kind of stuff I want to record, hopefully on analog.

Cheers

[Kenny Gioia]

Leaving aside the fact that adding distortion for volume seems really dumb to me (even though everyone does it) Thank God Cd's have better dynamic range than Vinyl.

Here's what I do.

I compress alot on each individual channel. Kick, Snare, Bass, Lead Vox.

Than I compress really agressively on the 2 buss. SSL quad compressor is perfect for this.

Then I add a TCMasterX plug in that gives you a few extra dB of gain and crush. It crushes Top, Mid, Lo end seperately. You'll gain 3-5 db here.

Then add the L2. About 3db here should do it.

Now by doing it in seperate ways you should get less distortion, more level and a bit more of a natural sound.

I personally leave off the L2 at the end when I'm not chasing someone else's level.

[chb]

if i remember correctly, erykah badu's latest release 'world wide underground' isn't smashed to death. unfortunately it is musically less inspired than her earlier work...

[robot gigante]

Originally posted by Produceher
Then I add a TCMasterX plug in that gives you a few extra dB of gain and crush. It crushes Top, Mid, Lo end seperately. You'll gain 3-5 db here.

Then add the L2. About 3db here should do it.

Ouch.

[Bruce Keen]

Originally posted by robot gigante
Ouch.

Ouch too. My opinion is that multiband plug ins create more problems than they solve except in specific cases. And I hate the Master X. I think I just really dislike plug-ins overall especially when mastering is concerned.
The point was the sound of clipping ADC's not math crushing. Not at all the same thing.

Thanks for the suggestion on the new Erika Badu, I'll check it out. Her second album was quite smashed from what I remember. On a side note some records seem to get away with clipping better than others. The last perfect circle sounds huge and one can't help wonder what it sounded like before being truncated into a straight line.

cheers

[meteor]

Originally posted by chb
if i remember correctly, erykah badu's latest release 'world wide underground' isn't smashed to death. unfortunately it is musically less inspired than her earlier work...

that album was mastered by a good friend of mine who has also done work for me. i can remember the first time i worked with him... after asking why the track wasn't quite as loud as some of the other stuff in my CD player, he responded with a mild tirade about how ME's just crush the life out of most recordings. that was really eye-opening for me... a litte more research on my part has landed me squarely in the tutt "don't pulverise my work" camp.

i definitely don't do my own mastering unless it's just for demo purposes. working with a couple of people who really have the ME goods has illuminated my short-comings, so, i try to stick with what i know i can do - which doesn't have very much to do with the post-mix world.

peace

[Riccardo]

Hope this is a joke

[g.longest]

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN

Any pointers from mastering guys about how to fight these level wars better would be great.
My ears are getting tired of the crush but how do you educate your clients. Kids want Loud, Loud equals Money. I'm beginning to look like an old fart when I point out smashed CD's.

Why not just give the client an L2'd ref to listen to, and send the clean mix to the mastering house?

Regardless, If you do decide to clip your mixes for level, I would also print a version minus the clipping so your client's mix isn't permanently dated to this season's dB level. Send both to the mastering house.

It's a sad state of affairs.

[Riccardo]

Originally posted by g.longest
Why not just give the client an L2'd ref to listen to, and send the clean mix to the mastering house?

Regardless, If you do decide to clip your mixes for level, I would also print a version minus the clipping so your client's mix isn't permanently dated to this season's dB level. Send both to the mastering house.

It's a sad state of affairs.

Or shall we call it with its real name: Ignorance

[planet red]

Id like to hear some more thoughts on clipping drums during a mix for a less squashed final master.

I always wonder how squashed everything is on a TLA, CLA, Andy Wallace type mix before it goes to mastering.

Usually my stuff sounds a little more compressed then some of the other stuff my mastering engineer works on. I'm thinking if I can get my mixes a little more squashed then I should be able to get the level without it affecting the mix to much.

I own a couple insanely loud records that dont feel crushed. I'd love to be able to get my mixes like that since going for less level is out of the question for most bands, id at least want it to sound as good as possible when it is crushed.

[jbuntz]

Originally posted by planet red
Id like to hear some more thoughts on clipping drums during a mix for a less squashed final master.

I always wonder how squashed everything is on a TLA, CLA, Andy Wallace type mix before it goes to mastering.

Usually my stuff sounds a little more compressed then some of the other stuff my mastering engineer works on. I'm thinking if I can get my mixes a little more squashed then I should be able to get the level without it affecting the mix to much.

I own a couple insanely loud records that dont feel crushed. I'd love to be able to get my mixes like that since going for less level is out of the question for most bands, id at least want it to sound as good as possible when it is crushed.

TLA said "i wish my gain reduction meters went in circles so I could see how much I'm actually compressing."

CLA uses a bit less than TLA, and Andy Wallace probably a bit less than CLA.

[Kenny Gioia]

Tom Lord Alge mixed a record that I produced and his mixes were not crushed at all. They were quite normal. He obviously used compression but the levels were no where near what commercial cd's sound like.

Of course, after Mastering was a different story.

[Bruce Keen]

Originally posted by Produceher
Tom Lord Alge mixed a record that I produced and his mixes were not crushed at all. They were quite normal. He obviously used compression but the levels were no where near what commercial cd's sound like.

Of course, after Mastering was a different story.

Would you agree that it radically changed the sound of the mix once it was crushed?
Shouldn't your mix be as close as possible to the end result. Clipping in my opinion will change the balance just as compression will albeit in a different way.
Should we just let mastering guys do their own thing and hope that they will have a bit of taste when sanding down. The whole point of my question was whether as mixers we should get involved in this clipping thing or just let someone else handle it.
Cheers

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN
Would you agree that it radically changed the sound of the mix once it was crushed?
Shouldn't your mix be as close as possible to the end result. Clipping in my opinion will change the balance just as compression will albeit in a different way.
Should we just let mastering guys do their own thing and hope that they will have a bit of taste when sanding down. The whole point of my question was whether as mixers we should get involved in this clipping thing or just let someone else handle it.
Cheers

When you mix a single on an album that has different mixers on it(very common on most pop records) you don't really worry about it.

Its one of the biggest reasons i don't compress the mixbuss anymore(only once in awhile). After the compression from the mastering guy, the limiting from the radio and the changes MP3 encoding does you just give up. I much prefer to focus on getting the best mix to the mastering guy period.

An excellent mix will translate no matter what processing is done. It actually helps the mastering guy not to work as hard.

You have to adopt the attitude that once its out of your hands its somebodies elses responsibility. If not you will add more worry to your life that you don't really need.

[syra]

First off let me say how excited I am about the mastering job on the Beyonce solo album. Lower in volume than most cds out there, it lets the kick and snare really cut through...a job very well done...

I second the idea that the only way to get super loud results is by clipping the ADC. Quality-wise I think Bob Katz said that the DAW makes a difference (don't know if he was refering to the convertors). For example, Sonic Solutions can be pushed more than PT till you hear noticable distortion...

"Unfortunately" I use PT to master my own stuff when the project is not important enough for an ME. I setup a new session where I can a/b with commercial releases and I use only outboard besides the L2 plugin who's threshold I'll automate (boosting choruses and stuff). My chain is Tubetech SMC2B to an IBIS to MP. The final volume boost before the ADC comes from the MP. The SMC2B makes a huge difference due to the fact that I can compress low freqs more and also reduce their gain...a common problem if you want to push things very loud...The louder I wanted to get, the mmore low end I need to reduce...those lows have a lot of energy...

What I would like to know from other mixers is "prior to mastering, do you usually mix transient instruments with excessive attack (compessed a lot with slow attack) or you try to expect the cropping in a way so you pull them back or maybe even limit/crop them yourself..."

...peaceeeeee

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by syra

What I would like to know from other mixers is "prior to mastering, do you usually mix transient instruments with excessive attack (compessed a lot with slow attack) or you try to expect the cropping in a way so you pull them back or maybe even limit/crop them yourself..."

...peaceeeeee

None of the above.

You do it till it sounds good.

Again, you have enough things to worry about, from pleasing the artist, producer and the record label.

There isn't enough hours in the day to worry about if the mastering guy will do such and such especially if you are on a record with ten other guys.

You do have a little feel after awhile on what so and so does(from Herb Powers,Bob Ludwig,Brian gardner,Tom Coyne,etc).

I think that your mix is at the beginning of the CD determines more the "mastering sound" for the CD(also it helps your reputation and pocketbook).

On Beyonce's record Toni Maserati is at the beginning("Crazy in Love"), so his mix kinda sets the tone for the record.

He did an excellent job on this one.

Compared to Destiny's Child "Survivor" which i couldn't stand.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by syra
First off let me say how excited I am about the mastering job on the Beyonce solo album. Lower in volume than most cds out there, it lets the kick and snare really cut through...a job very well done...

This was Tom Coyne who to me is by far my favorite and coolest mastering guy to work with.

He is one guy who can take any project in just about any genre to the next level.

He is also one of the busiest mastering guys. His waiting list is pretty long(about 3 months).

[Riccardo]

There is a control on most replay system called volume.
There is also some grey matter in most people's heads.
Those two devices used together yeld brilliant results in the fight agains "level wars"

[syra]

None of the above. You do it till it sounds good.

So Thrill, you mean that the loudness war hasn't influenced at all mixers and only MEs? Mixers do what they always used to do and havn't changed the way the mix things at all?...this is very interesting...I always think I have to work in a way that will allow the product to be loud...

Can you explain a bit more..?

thanks

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by syra
So Thrill, you mean that the loudness war hasn't influenced at all mixers and only MEs? Mixers do what they always used to do and havn't changed the way the mix things at all?...this is very interesting...I always think I have to work in a way that will allow the product to be loud...

Can you explain a bit more..?

thanks

It HAS influenced mixers and tracking engineers too- which is misguided and causes unpleasantness a lot of times. Just as the myth persists that making it sound like it's run through radio processing *before* it really gets to radio causes some nasty noises too- lightly processed things (or unprocessed) that get hit with processing sound better and just as loud- when it's already heavily processed and *then* gets heavily processed, ugly things happen, especially if clipping is involved.

Good article by Robert Orban at Brad Blackwood's Mastering Forum at ProSoundWeb.com, also in Bob Katz's book Mastering Audio.

ME's at least have ears and do each thing differently, the radio processors do it all up to the max regardless of what's coming in!

Radio processing aside, when it gets EQ'd and compressed in tracking, EQ'd and compressed in mixing, and then EQ'd and compressed in mastering, distortion is cumulative. And when levels are real high a lot of mastering processes have no headroom to operate- the track must be turned down first or lotsa uncontrolled clipping happens. EQ, SRC, are examples.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by syra
So Thrill, you mean that the loudness war hasn't influenced at all mixers and only MEs? Mixers do what they always used to do and havn't changed the way the mix things at all?...this is very interesting...I always think I have to work in a way that will allow the product to be loud...

Can you explain a bit more..?

thanks

That's the myth about mixing(or guys that are trying to learn).

For a song to be strong and powerful it doesn't necessarily need to be loud.

The key is having enough space for the dynamics to breathe, to build and to go somewhere.

You put ceiling on it and you cap off what it can do.

I recently had an audition? recently for a mix job where the client was getting submissions from everywhere. He took my premix and played it on his system and right away he noticed that my levels were lower (in comparison to the others and the major releases he compared it to). He even broached the subject, asking me if i ever premasterd mixes to play for people. I told him sometimes, but i felt in this case with the nature of the production(96 tracks) i just wanted him to hear what i could do with it (in comparisons to the other). I just asked him to turn it up to a point where he felt comfertable.

Guess what? When he played it at higher levels there was an openess and the dynamics that just popped through his system. He got really excited and overlooked the level difference. He even liked where I was going with it better than the other guys(even the major releases).

I got the gig.


I mix at 79db, but my mixes normally translate at loud volumes because i keep enough space for it to go somewhere. Its a self philosophy. I think if i were you i wouldn't worry as much about the changes the mastering will do (especially if you are not the artist or producer).

If you are than maybe find an ME is more inline with your philosophy.

I think sometimes people here focus on to much of the technicalities and not as much on what is important...creating great music (or in this case a great mix).

I am listening to an Andy Wallace mix now and what i hear is not as much the compression of the vocals, delays on the gutars and such.

Its that he lets the moment shine through, the essence of the song.

Now that's what i call great mixing.

[Ted Nightshade]

I just asked him to turn it up to a point where he felt comfertable.

Guess what? When he played it at higher levels there was an openess and the dynamics that just popped through his system. He got really excited and overlooked the level difference. He even liked where I was going with it better than the other guys(even the major releases).

I got the gig.

[/B][/QUOTE]

thumbsup

[KBOY]

I am getting the idea more and more to not worry to much about the loudness of my mixes. Yesterday An act that I produced and mixed gave me a copy of the stuff mastered by Arnie Acosta. All I have to say is that mastering by a profession that knows what he is doing is well worth it. If an artist wants the track to feel good loudness wise for shits and giggles I'll through some crap mastering type plugs on. But I hope that I will be able to talk sense into the artists that come through my door to put a little cash aside for the mastering process. I am an up and comer and this was my first eye opening experience to the world of mastering. Listening to the tracks just made the hairs stand up on end and made me just listen in awe. A/b ing the un mastered versions to the mastered versions made me feel like he did not destroy the mixes but made my mixes sound as they sounded in my head but could not figure out how to get it across. I spend most of my time producing and engineering and about 1% of my time mastering. There is no way I can compete with someone who dedicates them selves to this task. I now bow down to great mastering engineers.

KBOY

[lefthando]

I can't help but think that clipping or compressing any more then nessasary by the mix engineer is only going to exacerbate the problem. I agree that, as mix engineers, we need to make the mix 'rock' and then pass it on to people who specialize in 'crushing'. The better the mix, the better the mastering.

Furthermore, having an L2 version for the client doesn't hurt. Often, I'll bring a mix home and do a quckie DIY mastering job, with plugins, just to give the to the client for reference.

[Jules]

The only thing I have to throw into this pot is this.....

I can't for the life of me seem to be able to clip the input on my Cranesong Hedd 196....

I mean, it seems bullet proof!

I'm not complaining....... it's phenomenal!

What is it down to?

A rip roaring success in overs metering? What?

I really don't understand it.

[planet red]

For me the problem is everything I do is going to get mastered very loudly.

Sooo since the mastering isnt really an option, can I get a better mix if I clip drums slightly myself so the mastering engineer has less crushing to do?

[Bob Olhsson]

The "right" peak limiting will make drums sound better than clipping them in my experience. The best way to find out is to do it both ways. Most mastering engineers frequently work with alternate mixes.

[13chroma20]

I would leave the mastering to the mastering people, unless you have no budget for mastering. If you want the mastering engineer to not squash the mixes to death (or if you do) then either attend the session or describe what you want, maybe even provide a reference disc of something you think is mastered well. Like someone else pointed out, sometimes it can be cool to give clients a cheaply "mastered" version done with l2 or a finalizer just as a reference, and provide a clean copy for the mastering house.
Clipping digital converters in order to get a "mastered" sound is going to sound awful. You might as well just run the mix through a digital distortion plugin. Mastering engineers create the extremely crushed "solid block of sound" by extreme limiting and mulitband compression.

[syra]

13chroma20 you don't have to go far to hear the input clipping on records...just check out the 50cent cd or the Staind debut album...

[Bruce Keen]

Originally posted by 13chroma20

Clipping digital converters in order to get a "mastered" sound is going to sound awful. You might as well just run the mix through a digital distortion plugin. Mastering engineers create the extremely crushed "solid block of sound" by extreme limiting and mulitband compression.

That is just not true. I have personally seen a number of mastering engineers get their level by clipping the ADC. Not always but more often than not. It does not sound the same as a digital distortion. You can pick up any CD from the Top 50 and have a look at it's waveform. It's just clipped. Not limited or multiband. Just chopped off. On the other hand I have never seen extreme limiting or compression in a mastering room. Some ADC's clip better than others. Or perhaps not as bad.
I think it's true that good peak limiting is better than clipping but if your mix is going to be clipped anyway I think it's important to keep it in mind.