I have a question about PDC, or Plugin delay in ProTools LE...

[Roberto Lanczos]

Let's say i have all my tracks well aligned in the timeline, and i want to add RTAS plugins to some tracks. ( just in some tracks ).

When i do the Bounce, the tracks with plugins are rendered with some Delay occasioned by the RTAS ?


I mean: something like this:

Track ( no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track ( no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track with PLugins : ...000000000000000000000
Track ( no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track with PLugins : ...000000000000000000000


The final Master is Rendered with some delay in those tracks ?

[johnwayne]

Use Alt H to nudge them back where they where. Ctrl click in the volume window of the fader to find the delay imposed by the plug in. It will show this in samples.

[Roberto Lanczos]

But when i'm rendering my final STEREO, the tracks with plugins are being rendered with DELAY in the final MIX ?

[dropblacksky]

They will be delayed if you're using heavy 3rd party plugins...the Digirack plugs always show up as 0 when I control click the box. The idea is that you would find the track with the most sample delay and nudge (or use the delay plug) the other tracks forward so they line up....kind of tedious at times, but if you're using heavy plugs it'll make a huge difference in the sound of your final mix so it's worth it.

[dropblacksky]

Note: By "line up" I meant in time. Visually, the tracks you nudged (those without rtas) will actually be ahead of the other tracks on the timeline. When you bounce to stereo you'll be all good...

[waffle waitress]

My URS and McDSP show no latency on my LE rig...when I had my Waves on there (before I got screwed by WUP) they allways showed latency.

[Roberto Lanczos]

Plugins latency are perceptible only during playback, right ?

Tracks will be aligned with NO latency at all, after rendering. right ?

[imgoinmad]

What you can do is rather than do a bounce, you can just play any tracks with plugins 'live' and record the results to another track, this way if you need to adjust anything back due to plugin latency, you can adjust them (nudge by specific sample latency), then do a bounce with no plugins (using the new tracks)...this should resolve your issue

Track 1(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track 2(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track 3(w PLugins): ...000000000000000000000
NewTk3(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track 4(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track 5(w PLugins): ...000000000000000000000
NewTk5(no plugins): 00000000000000000000

End result (now you can do a real bounce of your mix)
Track 1(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track 2(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
NewTk3(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
Track 4(no plugins): 00000000000000000000
NewTk5(no plugins): 00000000000000000000

[amishsixstringe]

I have found that the delay counter in PT is often wrong. It shows 0 for many plugins wich is impossible. Even those shitty digi plugs have some processing time. Duplicate a track, match the levels, and put an EQ1 on one of the tracks and bypass it. You can hear them shift out of phase, but the dly meter reads 0 on both tracks. I don't trust that thing at all.

Neil

[raal]

Originally Posted by Roberto Lanczos

The final Master is Rendered with some delay in those tracks ?

LE is supposed to have 'some' PDC. can't remember how much off the bat but not as much as TDM. using delay-less plugs would be good, or keeping count of how much delay is caused by each plug.

but yes, LE has some plug delay compensation.

[StudioRhythm]

PTLE has no PDC, period. Not during playback, not during bounce. There has been a lot of misleading info out there suggesting that it somehow does (most commonly that it has something that depends on the hardware buffer settings), but it does not. Digi has a paper on their site explaining it here:

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...tems_33000.pdf

Hopefully it will have PDC someday....

I have found that the delay counter in PT is often wrong. It shows 0 for many plugins wich is impossible. Even those shitty digi plugs have some processing time. Duplicate a track, match the levels, and put an EQ1 on one of the tracks and bypass it. You can hear them shift out of phase, but the dly meter reads 0 on both tracks. I don't trust that thing at all.

In my experience, the delay counter in PTLE has always been right, although I haven't used every plugin out there, so some might read incorrectly (I think the plugin itself reports the delay to the host). Many plugins have 0 delay, which is perfectly possible, and with all of those that I use, the readout is correct. When you bypass a plugin, it still incurs whatever delay it has when not bypassed (you have to disable it to remove its delay). If you're hearing phase shifting happening, it's because of the settings you're using on the plugin, not a group delay if it changes when you bypass.

[amishsixstringe]

I meant bypass the plugin entirely...not toggle between bypass and not. I can hear the delay. I don't care what the little counter tells me. It's there.


neil

[StudioRhythm]

Why don't you do a null test and then report your findings?

[Roberto Lanczos]

Originally Posted by StudioRhythm

PTLE has no PDC. Not during playback, not during bounce.

what?

Originally Posted by StudioRhythm

not during bounce.

what?
what was the last part?


Are you telling me... that i'm rendering my final mixes with the tracks misaligned, because of the plugins delay?

I'm about to shoot my self in the face, seriously.


During playback is not a big deal, what the hell.
But during bounce ?

i'm going to sell my digi right now.

[sardi]

Originally Posted by Roberto Lanczos

what?

what?
what was the last part?


Are you telling me... that i'm rendering my final mixes with the tracks misaligned, because of the plugins delay?

I'm about to shoot my self in the face, seriously.


During playback is not a big deal, what the hell.
But during bounce ?

i'm going to sell my digi right now.

Don't want to be rude by any means, but if the delay between tracks was bad enough to shoot yourself in the face, you would have heard it whilst mixing.

If thats the case, sell your ears not your digi.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by StudioRhythm

Hopefully it will have PDC someday....

hahahahahhaaaaaa!!!!

ok...I'll shut up now.

[Roberto Lanczos]

Originally Posted by sardi

Don't want to be rude

but you were...

[StudioRhythm]

Originally Posted by Roberto Lanczos

what?

what?
what was the last part?


Are you telling me... that i'm rendering my final mixes with the tracks misaligned, because of the plugins delay?

I'm about to shoot my self in the face, seriously.


During playback is not a big deal, what the hell.
But during bounce ?

i'm going to sell my digi right now.

To be honest, I'd rather have no PDC than PDC that works on bounce but not on playback -- you'd spend time mixing without hearing what it was really going to sound like, which doesn't make sense, how could you mix?

Timeadjuster works. It's a pain, but it works. Of course, PDC would be better....

[sardi]

Originally Posted by Roberto Lanczos

but you were...

In all honesty, I wasnt. It was a tad smart ass, but Im sure you can see the logic in what I wrote.

Realistically, it CAN'T be that bad if your not cringing at things being out of sync when your mixing. If you are, then you will hear it in the bounce aswell.

There is NO automatic delay compensation when you bounce that file. Try it. Bounce the mix and record the mix to another track. Listen to them. They will be the same.

If its not causing phasing or audible delay in parts, no need to worry in the end. just dont use Vintage Warmer 2 anywhere in the mix..... you'll REALLY shoot yourself then!!

[Roberto Lanczos]

i did a basic test today, with a snare hit.

I duplicated the file. and i put, 1 to the left, 1 to the right.

i inserted maxim in the left side. ( during playback, i got an obvious delay in the left channel )

after rendering, the delay was still there in the left channel.

that sucks.

[Acko]

Roberto, it's simple man...if a plugin induces delay, compensate for it. Problem solved. If this bums you out too much, save your pennies and upgrade to a system with adc. What makes you think that there would be no delay in a bounced mix if it was there before the bounce?

[Fash]

I did a little test in LE several weeks back. I created an aux tracked, inserted the click plug. I then inserted a different plug for each test (digi EQ3, some waves stuff) and routed out a buss to record to a new track.

The digi plugs (EQ3, BF 1176, compressor etc.) were aligned at the sample level. Waves Ren EQ aligned at the sample level, while obvious processor hungry plugs like low and broadband EQ were real late.

So I guess the digirack stuff and BF 1176 does not have any delay.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Acko

save your pennies and upgrade to a system with adc.

Doesn't take too many pennies seeing that EVERY other major DAW offers PDC.
digi.

[2012]

Originally Posted by Roberto Lanczos

i inserted maxim in the left side. ( during playback, i got an obvious delay in the left channel )

after rendering, the delay was still there in the left channel.

that sucks.

Maxim has one of the largest delays of any plugin - 1024 samples.

Besides that, it's a terrible limiter.

Don't use plugins w/ delay on a track or parallel buss unless you compensate by nudging that track backward the given amount of samples or using TimeAdjuster on all the other tracks.

Simple.

[MikeRocks]

mix with your ears, not your eyes! does it sound good to you? do you hear obvious phase cancellation?

[jmarkham]

You might find this helpful: Plug-in Delay Compensation with Protools LE / MP

jeff