THE LAST Hardware VS Plugin debate

[Amadeuz]

Originally Posted by JustMike

The general consensus around here is that the UAD 1176, La2a, etc. sound VERY good but not "the same" as their hardware counterparts.

For All who cannot decide or DONT want to decide which is better.

TRUE. They are different. The debate roams unstopping on weather it is as "good" or not. Honestly, what is the purpose of reading a thread of a bunch of people saying, "YES" while the other says "NO"? Let's actually try to achieve something here.

The audio industry and (its linked sister) the recording industry have been struck with a major tidal wave, that in which we have not settled down: The digital revolution. Vintage-replica-plugins are the effort to create tools for those who do not possess mediums to access the rare pieces of hardware, with a few practicality perks. They are not BETTER, or WORSE. They are simply different, and represent a newer generation of sound character. For me as a guy that used to splice 2" tape, it’s interesting to find more and more albums hitting top charts, which clearly have that in-the-box sound character.
Isn't the character of a recording what really makes us fall in love with it? How "dark", or "warm" or "punchy" or "gritty"? I have never heard someone (at least outta the geek league) to say: "oh, I love that recording, its sounds so HI FI..."
When I record, I unconsciously think of my life-influences, and how I have engraved in the stone of memory how they sounded. Like the first time I plugged a vocal into an LA2A, and how it transformed it, adding texture and color; or the time that Rick Rubin, kicked my ears butt. I am addicted to what my memory remembers as being "good", which brings me to the conclusion, that because I love what I remember, I become what I love.
On the other hand, we have the new wave of hundreds of new engineers in the making, that as we speak, they're losing their virginity to a Waves Renaissance Comp; listening to a lot less Beatles, Bee Gees, Stones, or Jazz; and grabbing a computer mouse right after they're done with their baby bottle. This group has a completely different view on what is "the record sound".

"To your consideration folks", I think there is a very easy way to determine should to stick to plugins, and who should take out the extra cash to pursue a hardware unit:
SET YOUR GOALS!
1) Take out your top 5 CD's out of the shelf. Those that sound like god recorded them.
2) Make a little research and inquire on how these where recorded (you would be amazed to realize how consistent, most of us are, on our "sound character" choices). Personally, I’m cursed with the Neve bug. 8 out of 10.
3) Accept reality. If you choose 4 recordings made on SSLs, and tape, you better start saving up. On the other hand, if the recordings are mixed inside PT, Radar, etc., then you are all set; You have discovered your mind print tendancy.

In an overcrowded audio industry there are options, hundreds of them. But IME it is only possible for us to achieve full bliss, if we stick to the plan, get the slutty piece of hardware or software), and stop kidding around.

TO MAKE THIS THREAD INTERESTING, POST YOUR “LOVE TENDENCIES”.
FROM YOUR TOP 5 RECORDINGS, WHAT ARE YOU?

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by Amadeuz

For All who cannot decide or DONT want to decide which is better.

TRUE. They are different. The debate roams unstopping on weather it is as "good" or not. Honestly, what is the purpose of reading a thread of a bunch of people saying, "YES" while the other says "NO"? Let's actually try to achieve something here.

The audio industry and (its linked sister) the recording industry have been struck with a major tidal wave, that in which we have not settled down: The digital revolution. Vintage-replica-plugins are the effort to create tools for those who do not possess mediums to access the rare pieces of hardware, with a few practicality perks. They are not BETTER, or WORSE. They are simply different, and represent a newer generation of sound character. For me as a guy that used to splice 2" tape, it’s interesting to find more and more albums hitting top charts, which clearly have that in-the-box sound character.
Isn't the character of a recording what really makes us fall in love with it? How "dark", or "warm" or "punchy" or "gritty"? I have never heard someone (at least outta the geek league) to say: "oh, I love that recording, its sounds so HI FI..."
When I record, I unconsciously think of my life-influences, and how I have engraved in the stone of memory how they sounded. Like the first time I plugged a vocal into an LA2A, and how it transformed it, adding texture and color; or the time that Rick Rubin, kicked my ears butt. I am addicted to what my memory remembers as being "good", which brings me to the conclusion, that because I love what I remember, I become what I love.
On the other hand, we have the new wave of hundreds of new engineers in the making, that as we speak, they're losing their virginity to a Waves Renaissance Comp; listening to a lot less Beatles, Bee Gees, Stones, or Jazz; and grabbing a computer mouse right after they're done with their baby bottle. This group has a completely different view on what is "the record sound".

"To your consideration folks", I think there is a very easy way to determine should to stick to plugins, and who should take out the extra cash to pursue a hardware unit:
SET YOUR GOALS!
1) Take out your top 5 CD's out of the shelf. Those that sound like god recorded them.
2) Make a little research and inquire on how these where recorded (you would be amazed to realize how consistent, most of us are, on our "sound character" choices). Personally, I’m cursed with the Neve bug. 8 out of 10.
3) Accept reality. If you choose 7 recordings made on SSLs, and tape, you better start saving up.

In an overcrowded audio industry there are options, hundreds of them. But IME it is only possible for us to achieve full bliss, if we stick to the plan, get the slutty piece, and stop kidding around.

TO MAKE THIS THREAD INTERESTING, POST YOUR “LOVE TENDENCIES”.
FROM YOUR TOP 5 RECORDINGS, WHAT ARE YOU?

wonderful monologue !

[Amadeuz]

Thanks Prins, my finger tips are sore .

[Led]

Originally Posted by Amadeuz

On the other hand, we have the new wave of hundreds of new engineers in the making, that as we speak, they're losing their virginity to a Waves Renaissance Comp; listening to a lot less Beatles, Bee Gees, Stones, or Jazz; and grabbing a computer mouse right after they're done with their baby bottle. This group has a completely different view on what is "the record sound".

True, but have you seen the look on any of their faces the first time they use an original LA2A or 1073 instead of a plugin?

[cosmos]

this is a thread to follow ...

welcome to GS my freind, i like your adittude ! hardware it is !

[sanjari]

Whatever they used to record The Black Crowes AMORICA album.

[AlexLakis]

Hey, Amadeuz!

Well, I guess I'll be the guy who says it...I like a lot of what you've said in your post, but some of your conclusions may be a little misguided.

For example, you ask us to pick our top 5 albums, then look to see how they were recorded. In reality, I believe it is much more important to consider who recorded them, and who was being recorded. A crappy engineer recording a crappy band on a $$$$$$ board is gonna sound like crap. A great engineer recording a great band on a $$$ digital interface is going to sound great. Do you honestly think that you picked those 8 records in your top ten because they were recorded on a Neve? I seriously doubt it.

Also, you should consider that people have been recording on analog equipment/to tape for A LONG TIME. Digital technology is fairly new. There are still limitations in the technology which are being worked out, and people are still getting used to working with it. Even still, there are several engineers nowadays who mix entirely ITB using mainly or only plugins who are blowing most "strictly analog" engineers out of the water every day. Of course, the opposite can be said too, which leads me back to my original point: It's not the gear, it's the people involved.

Welcome to Gearslutz!

P.S. Nothing beats Roger Waters' solo albums for me, sonically. I believe they were all done using (predominantly) analog equipment.

[Kiwiburger]

I think far too much weight is placed on recording medium. I'm sure the primary reason we love the albums we love is because of the songwriting, the instruments and players, and the skill and aesthetic choices of everyone involved in the recording process.

They used the gear they used because that's what they had at the time. That's all it really proves.

In 10 years time, this analog/digital debate should become meaningless, because there will be a wealth of songs that we can look back on and love them to pieces, despite being mixed ITB with plugins.

The plugins are getting better all the time, so the gap in sound quality will close. It's already at a point where many engineers can be fooled in blind tests. Not all, but many, and the general public don't give a monkeys anyway.

[Amadeuz]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Hey, Amadeuz!

Also, you should consider that people have been recording on analog equipment/to tape for A LONG TIME. Digital technology is fairly new. There are still limitations in the technology which are being worked out

Hi Alex,
Great Response. Though I really tried to seem neutral, my analog roots spoke though me. Rest assured I love plugins, and use them every day. I dont believe they are bad at all. What I believe is that plugins, as well as the whole ITB mixing is revolutionizing, to the ears of many what a great "record sound" is. And when one defines where that personal prefence of sound lies, its easy to know if plugin and ITB mixing will do.

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

P.S. Nothing beats Roger Waters' solo albums for me, sonically. I believe they were all done using (predominantly) analog equipment.

YES YES! Roger Waters is theeee MAN!

THANKS FOR THE ALBUM CONTRIBUTIONS GUYS

KEEP IT GOING>>>>>>>

[Sid Viscous]

Originally Posted by sanjari

Whatever they used to record The Black Crowes AMORICA album.

They used Jack Joseph Puig and the Crowes, and unfortunately you can't use that.

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by Led

True, but have you seen the look on any of their faces the first time they use an original LA2A or 1073 instead of a plugin?

Amen. I was waaaaay too young to even be around when the Bee Gees' Stayin' Alive or Chic's LeFreak or Led Zeppelin or The Doors was first released. I grew up in the 80's when music sounded like shit -- way too much reverb, shitty digital sounds, and I can tell you as much as I like 80's music (huge Depeche Mode, U2 fan and those electronic bands from the UK), the production was pretty crappy compared to those days before my time.

[O.F.F.]

Ok, I grab my fav 5 albums/cds and what I find is a variety of recording media from 2track tape via 2"tape all the way to digital. The thing they all have in common is excellent musicians and an absolute minimum of 'fiddling' ie recorded as-live with little or no overdubs or tracking, high quality mics and, if necessary, hardware comps/limiters. Guess the way to a great recording is KISS!

[WEAPON_X]

thanks, you just ruined my day. thank you very much.

i did what you said, and grabed my 10 all time fav. recordes and found out that i need at least two additional lives only for saving up.
and when i am done with saving, i will need two more lives on top, to acquire at least a little bit of the knowledge and expertise of those guys who did that records.
maybe i should add one live for experience a similar life, so i can understand where they came from.

but before all, i assume i have to talk to god to overboost my talent, otherwise, the lives would be spent worthless.


but in total - i agree 110% to your saying.

[deuc647]

I did the same and it was a toss up between the 2, of them all the michael jackson stuff really holds its own, shyt sounds amazing. I think if i work the rest of the year, i can hire bruce for about 5 minutes

[Amadeuz]

Originally Posted by WEAPON_X

thanks, you just ruined my day

LOL... Hey, no one said it was easy to become a legend.

[NesNeedsGear]

the reasons you like your favorite CD's are FAR more important and greater than what gear was used to record it.
I think most people mistake wanting to capture a "sound", with attempting to match an "emotion" or "feel" of their favorite records.
In any case...

I listen to stuff made on PTLE/Nuendo and stuff that was printed to 2" mastered on 1/2", using a bunch of expensive and vintage sh*t 60 years ago...sam cooke, jackie wilson, James Brown....etc. I hardly care what was used, and focus more on HOW the emotions of the records are captured. (brave words to say on GEARslutz huh? )

The greatest factor in ANYONE's favorite records will ALWAYS, INEVITABLY, and infallibly be the HUMAN element. No 1's and 0's (plug in) or transistors and transformers on a circuit board will ever be more important than this.

I use both, btw. I think I'll start production on a Plug-in that simulates HUMAN warmth...so "tape" and "tube" warmth can go f*ck itself.

-nes

[arpodthegreat]

i can't stop thinking about the interview with S. Husky Hoskulds in the Nov/Dec 2006 issue of tape op. turned my world upside down. i know a few guys who get things to sound really killer ITB but i was still skeptical. personally i thought that i would prefer to go all analogue (though i don't have the budget and usually what's available is software not hardware so i use what i can). but this interview was eye opening. This young Icelandic engineer has mixed some great records more importantly they are records that sound warm and analogue (wallflowers, gipsy kings, nora jones, tom waites, solomon burke, joe henry's i believe to my soul) now i don't know how much analogue and how much digital he uses and granted he gets to work out of great LA studios and use desks like the API at sound factory but he talks a lot about mixing at home ITB.

"I never mix or track in such a way that i need the tape machine to add more of anything. i've got plenty of all frequencies and don't need "outside help" to make it sound right. as far as that infamous analog warmth - i've never needed it. Go out and buy that Elvis Costello/Allen Toussaint record and i guarantee you there is more warmth and low end on that record that ll his other records combined - and that has nothing to do with the console or lack of console, tape machine or lack of tape machine, 24 track or 16 track. it has to do with the engineer and his aesthetic."

Amen. I believe that if you have good converter, Apogee, Lavry, Radar, etc... as long as it's clean and quality and that you have good preamps, good mic technique, great musicians/instruments and a good room and very importantly, good gain staging so that nothing clips and there is a minimum of noise then it will sound great. Digital is great because it's clean and accurate, just like a 24 track when used properly. he's right all the frequencies are there. using plugins or hardware to mix will just help bring everything to a point of balance and if you prefer the sound of one or the convenience of the other then that's how it goes. LA2A's and vintage neve compressors are not replaceable but not required to get a great sound.

[Amadeuz]

Originally Posted by NesNeedsGear

the reasons you like your favorite CD's are FAR more important and greater than what gear was used to record it.
I think most people mistake wanting to capture a "sound", with attempting to match an "emotion" or "feel" of their favorite records.
In any case...

I listen to stuff made on PTLE/Nuendo and stuff that was printed to 2" mastered on 1/2", using a bunch of expensive and vintage sh*t 60 years ago...sam cooke, jackie wilson, James Brown....etc. I hardly care what was used, and focus more on HOW the emotions of the records are captured. (brave words to say on GEARslutz huh? )

The greatest factor in ANYONE's favorite records will ALWAYS, INEVITABLY, and infallibly be the HUMAN element. No 1's and 0's (plug in) or transistors and transformers on a circuit board will ever be more important than this.

I use both, btw. I think I'll start production on a Plug-in that simulates HUMAN warmth...so "tape" and "tube" warmth can go f*ck itself.

-nes

I totally agree with you. We all like songs that may not sound as great, but hey, what a song! On the other side, I think many of us have highly appreciated certain albums, mostly because of the mastery of the recording. And as much as I would like to philosophize all day on how to achieve greater talent; in forums like this we can just talk about the gear and the techniques, and leave 'talent' to our individual holy-given-gift.

Cheers!
PS: if you come up with the Human-Warmerizer and Talentizer plugins, let me know. And make it a bundle, so I can save some cash...

[NesNeedsGear]

Originally Posted by Amadeuz

...
PS: if you come up with the Human-Warmerizer and Talentizer plugins, let me know. And make it a bundle, so I can save some cash...

WILL DO!