Does the room matter when close mic'ing a gtr cab?

[Tibbon]

I know that to some small degree the room will always matter, but for practical purposes, does the room really matter when tracking loud guitar amps, if the only mic you're using is a half inch off the cab?

I can't imagine that you'd hear really ANY ambience/room tone/etc from a 57 on a 4x12 cab that's being pushed by a 100 watt plexi head. Would it really make a difference it being in your garage vs Abbey Road vs Air London vs the Taj Mahal?

I don't have an extra Abbey Road or Taj Mahal in my studio to test this out with, so any input would be appreciated.

I do realize that for tracking almost every other instrument, that it would matter quite a bit.

[warhead]

It won't really matter in cardioid. Figure 8 ribbons can be another matter altogether, although the direct vs reflected sound is going to overpower it so much that again...probably doesn't matter as much as you think.

War

[Opie Taylor]

I can tell a difference. I would try a room that is somewhat treated. I have noticed bare room reflections make thin sounding tracks even with dynamic mics especially if it is a higher wattage amp that you have to crank a bit.

[AlexLakis]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't room nulls/spikes affect the sound regardless of how close a cardoid mic is to a source and how loud that source is?

[C_F_H_13]

The room does matter, but guitars can be tracked in pretty much any room. A little foam will make everything ok. Just putting my cab in my bedroom sounds like garbage, but a couple of 4 foot slabs of 6 inch thick foam on each side of the cabinet makes it sound like magic. The key is the slap off the walls (especially drywall) when the amp is cranked that'll F@ck with you. As I said, a little foam and everything is perfect.

[SurfingMusicMan]

I used to mic up my amp in a pushed away corner of my room mainly cuz I was too lazy to move it. I've since started to move the amps I record into the middle of the room and have noticed a fairly noticable improvement in reduction of low end muddyness. Therefore, from my experience, I think it still matters what kind of room you close mic loud guitars in.

[LaLaFaV]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't room nulls/spikes affect the sound regardless of how close a cardoid mic is to a source and how loud that source is?

Exactly what I gathered, Alex. I thought that since there are nulls /spikes, you might place the cabinet/mic directly in one and therefore change the potential tone/frequency response.

[C_F_H_13]

Originally Posted by barthowk

I used to mic up my amp in a pushed away corner of my room mainly cuz I was too lazy to move it. I've since started to move the amps I record into the middle of the room and have noticed a fairly noticable improvement in reduction of low end muddyness. Therefore, from my experience, I think it still matters what kind of room you close mic loud guitars in.

very very very very true!! I just put more emphasis on where the amp is in a room, not what the room is actually like. Middle of a room, or at the very least away from walls and even further from corners is ideal in my books.

[RCM - Ronan]

The room can have a lot of effect on the guitar sound when close micing. I keep a few spare panels of OC703 around to put around the cab when I need to reduce the room sound. Less room will generally make the guitar sound more focused or tighter. Usually a good thing for rock guitar sounds.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by LaLaFaV

Exactly what I gathered, Alex. I thought that since there are nulls /spikes, you might place the cabinet/mic directly in one and therefore change the potential tone/frequency response.

Yes, I believe this is correct, and is something that many people are overlooking. Hence all of the "I got this $$$$ guitar and this $$$$ amp and this $$$$ cab and I'm close-micing with a $$$$ mic and running thru this $$$$ pre into these $$$$ converters, and my tone sounds thin as hell/muddy as hell! What gives, you guys recommended this gear to me?? I demand an explanation!" threads.

Also, regardless of the room as a whole, the placement of the amp in the room can drastically affect the sound no matter how tightly you mic it, as you can see in barthowk's example, where he was experiencing low end building by having his amp in an un-treated corner.

[Dave Peck]

And if the room has a 'live' sound with some natural reverb, you'll probably hear quite a bit of this, especially on percussive guitar parts or any time the guitar STOPS playing. Especially if you are compressing the mic signal, which will bring up the level of the room sound when the guitar stops. Usually a good thing, but it will affect it.

DP

[Tibbon]

I suppose the playing style and amount of distortion will make a large difference. If it's a percussive, dynamically played lead, then it will matter more... however someone crushing out chords with massive distortion.. less so.

[Mike Caffrey]

In addition to everything mention above, the room will have a huge sound on the guitar player perception of what's coming out of the amp. What sounds best in that small room mayb not be what's best to send to the mic. Then you listen thgouh monitors and dislike the sound.

I like to keep the head in the contorl room and tweak while listening through the signal path.

[dbbubba]

the amount of room that you can hear with a close mic can surprise you sometimes!

I started using a room that I ended up working out of everyday for six years and the first session I did was GTR OD stuff. The player was playing a Les Paul Jr. through a Marshall combo at a fairly loud level and I thouht that I had an extra mic open when I first brought sounds up!
I was amazed at how much room was in that mic (a 57 or maybe a 421)
The room was about 16 x 24 and was very well designed with assymetrical walls, but it was VERY live.
I ended up using the room tome more and more over the years and I REALLY miss the room!
The space was built in 1962 and I was the last person to use it in 2000.
I drive past the building and wonder what became of that lovely room all the time.

[rwhitney]

The room always matters, but not always the way we expect. Here's a guitar solo recorded (Royer-121 about 1 ft. away>Daking) in my crummy office with noisy computer fan going:

Oh, the vocal was recorded in there, too.

[jbuntz]

Most of the reflections will usually be from the floor when micing a guitar cab. Elevate the amp and most of the problem will go away. Makes a big difference, especially when micing a foot or so off the cab. With the inverse squared law, for every doubling of distance, there is a 6 db attenuation in sound, so say 3 inches vs. 2 ft or 24 inches on an elevated cab, there's really not much cancellation from reflection to speak of in theory. Cancellations from other speakers is a different story.

[jcool]

in my experience, getting the amplifier off the floor has always resulted in a terrible sound.

[SonicExplorer1]

I'll spare the lengthy techno-jargon and just share a few quick comments:

If you want to hear for yourself the difference a room can make on a mic'ed guitar amp then try this: Put the cab in a corner (so the sound projects along the side of one of the walls) and facing toward the door of the room. Then record two tracks - one with the door open and one with it closed. If you listen closely to the two tracks you will likely hear a difference. (This assumes a room that isn't already baffled, naturally or intentionally)

Although there are other factors involved, phase cancellation is usually the biggest culprit, and usually creates the perception of thinned-out the sound, or sometimes even lack of clarity.

Sonic

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

I know that to some small degree the room will always matter...

ime, to a very large degree the room always matters, no matter where you stick the mic. you can lessen the amount of direct-to-slap on tape, but the room is still the primary factor in how your track sounds.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[DirkB]

Yes it matters a great deal.

Think about it: the guitar player is hearing his amp in the room, so he will be adjudting the amp so it sounds right to him in that room.
Now, if the room is bassy sounding, he will probably add some mids and highs on his amp.

Now, what is your mic hearing?

This is the reason why I like a well balanced sounding room with a R-121 dead center on the cone (about 4"). What the mic is hearing is pretty much what the people in the room are hearing... (minus some room decay).

Greetings,
Dirk

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by u b k

ime, to a very large degree the room always matters, no matter where you stick the mic. you can lessen the amount of direct-to-slap on tape, but the room is still the primary factor in how your track sounds.

I totally agree. The room might not matter so much for the initial transient of say an open-string chord but it's what comes after that does matter.