Do the new API 512 mic pres come with Jensen transformers?

[jameslugo]

Do the new API 512 mic pres come with Jensen transformers? I looked on API's site and they said nothing. I've been on the fence about direction to go with this. I've heard 2520 opamp with Jensen transformers is the way to go. Brent Averill uses the Jensen's in his 312's but uses an Avedis 1122 opamp that they say is an upgrade from the 2520. Does anyone know the skinny??? I need it for rock drums, mainly snare.

[NathanEldred]

Just a humble observation but....


1) You are overthinking the whole thing

and

2) You are listening to waaay too much of "he said she said".


You are going to be happy with either probably. If you have specific measurable needs in a preamp that these two very similar products don't fulfill, then there is a product out there for you. If you don't necessarily even know the general sonic character of a Jensen (as a specifically related example, and believe me there is a "common" sound to that transformer) it doesn't matter anyway...it's like a 9 year old kid asking what it's like to win the Daytona 500 when he hasn't even driven a car yet.

[jameslugo]

I don't know much about race car driving but I do know what the snair sounds like on the new Godsmack record and that's what I'm after! I post this question because I can't do side by side shoot outs. I'm trying not to take offense to being compaired to a 9 year old, though I'm struggling.

[jameslugo]

p.s. Thanks for the advice Nathan, your probably right. I had a day of editing bad vocals :(~

James

[NathanEldred]

I'll betcha $1 that the snare on the Godsmack album was a sample and very processed.

[Gone Fission]

For the anal among us who really need to know such things, last I heard, API was using Reickenbach input transformers. These are spec'ed (almost?) identically to Jensens of similar model designation, and Reickenbach used to do manufacturing for Jensens. Probably not enough difference to worry about, even to the most critical ears.

Bear

[jameslugo]

Man the replies are hurting my feelings, am I to thin skinned for the internet? I take the anal comment as an insult, although I can be anal but a person usually has to know me for ten minutes before they call me anal.

The reason for this post was because a bunch of people on gearslutz told me to get the API with the 2520 and Jensen's. I didn't think the question up out of thin air.

A lttle info into how I came to be a studio owner; I'm a vocal coach in LA who had a bad time making a record 2 years ago, so I decided to buy a small digi 001 rig and do it myself. Well in two years I've built up to a Mix with 5 farm cards, Apogee, Neve, Avalon etc... and moved to Hollywood Blvd., next to Glen Ballard. My studio runs literally 24 hours a day most days and we've got a song charting on BET as I type and helped some artists get record deals. I write this not from ego but to tell you I've never gone to school for engineering, I never assisted under anyone or ever had a job at a recording studio. Everything has been shot from the hip! I've gone far in a short period of time by using the principle of 'attetion to detail'.

I'm having trouble capturing snair drums! I already put sound replacers under all the drums but that's not always the answer. To do it right by hand. one at a time, is time consuming and not everyone has that budget and to use the soundreplacer program in PT's isn't good enough, the transients don't line up and I can hear (what my friend calls) the squidgyness!!!

Well, I'm off to work, thanks for the help.

[Gone Fission]

Originally posted by jameslugo
Man the replies are hurting my feelings, am I to thin skinned for the internet? I take the anal comment as an insult, although I can be anal but a person usually has to know me for ten minutes before they call me anal.

Dude, I knew because I'm that anal. I didn't think you needed to know, but I had to supply the information, since I know it. That's all about me.

Bear

[toledo3]

The sample thing is right on the money. You might consider getting yourself a couple of triggers and a module, so that you can record the performance in midi- at least the snare. That makes it much easier to replace afterwards... or at least that is what I am used to. When I don't do that, I've never used soundreplacer- I just make a new track(s) and line up the samples to the transient in the actual kit tracks.

You could actually cut out a snare hit from a godsmack record (I didn't just write that ). There are many sample cd's availale in that style however.

If you want to make your own version of that sound, you should layer. The basic idea is that you want to have multiple elements which you can fade up or down... kind of like synthesizer velocity layers. I usually record a good thick sounding snare. Then I setup a piccolo snare for a nasty ring (kind of that awful new metallica snare sound). Then I take both of those tracks and distort them- could be through a sansamp, a ratt, a bigmuff, a p.a, or whatever. You might even want to setup a filter, so that you can manipulate it during different sections of the song.

That might not even be enough- I have a bunch of snare samples from parking lots/ hallways/ etc. that I can drop in if I need more decay.

That being said, that's not really my favorite type of drum sound. I kind of dig that hi-fidelity luscious sound like Kenny Loggins "This Is It" or Boz Scaggs "Lido".

[Screws]

Forgive my asking, but have you done all that you could to make the actual snare sound great through tuning and mic choice/placement?

I got a really great snare sound recently with a 57 above and another one beneath. The preamp was the absolutely ho-hum pres on my 02R. But the difference was we spent 2 hours fine tuning the drums, with 45 minutes dedicated to just the snare. It made a HUGE difference in the quality of the sound.

That said, I want some APIs for my next project.

[NathanEldred]

I think the problem lies more in the player when finding the need to use samples, as opposed to the actual snare/mic/preamp itself. I've had snare sounds, where on 10% of the hits it sounded fabulous...the other 90% it seems the drummer needed a roadmap back to the rimshot.

[jameslugo]

The thing is I go in the room and the snare is slammin'. I put a Beta 57 on top and a 57 on bottom and when I hear it back it sounds different. It has a popping sound, it sounds wierd to my ears. Most of the tone seems to come from the overs.

[jameslugo]

Bear,

You rock! Not only is pro audio new but so is the internet.

Thanks

[toledo3]

Lose the beta. And don't put the top mic right over the head, put it a little bit out so that it can catch some of the side of the snare, and the bottom. Then, adjust the bottom mic to taste. It is probably not going to be this perfectly parallel setup.

[kevinc]

Originally posted by jameslugo
The thing is I go in the room and the snare is slammin'. I put a Beta 57 on top and a 57 on bottom and when I hear it back it sounds different. It has a popping sound, it sounds wierd to my ears. Most of the tone seems to come from the overs.

I myself have gone to a 3 mic technique because I think directly miced snares sound fake.
Do a search here or look on the Mercenary audio site.
I basically start with that and also put a mic on the snare.
When I`m mixing I get most of the snare tone from the big 3 and then add a bit of the snare mic just to add a bit of volume.

I personally think you can record any kind of music this way and have better and more realistic sounding drums.

I also don`t think you need the " perfect " drummer to use this technique as opposed to what some others would say.
If the guy isn`t consistent with his hits you can add a bunch of compression and edit the snare a little and things even out pretty quick.
If the guys timings off I`d say you probably are ****ed because it`s harder to move stuff around when all the mics are picking up everything.

[jameslugo]

It all sounds good I will start trying it this week. So I should lose the beta 57. Why?

Also my buddy does 3 mics, one on top, one on bottom and one pointed at the hole on the side.

Thanks for all the help!

[jameslugo]

It all sounds good I will start trying it this week. So I should lose the beta 57. Why?

Also my buddy does 3 mics, one on top, one on bottom and one pointed at the hole on the side.

Thanks for all the help!

[jameslugo]

as you can see by my double repsonse, I'm confused!?!?!?!?! lol

[Screws]

Be careful of mic placement with two mics. Try aiming the top mic from under the hi hats pointing to the center of the snare head. this seems to pick up more tone than just pointing down at some small section near the edge.

Listen to the top mic alone through your monitors, then if it sounds great, start messing with the placement of the bottom mic, listening through some reliable and well isolated headphones to make sure the mics aren't out of phase with each other. Generally aim the bottom mic right at an exposed section of the snares, listening carefully as you vary the distance.

You'll probably have to flip the phase of the bottom mic to get them to sound right with each other.

Have fun.

[James Lehmann]

Originally posted by jameslugo
I'm having trouble capturing snair drums! I already put sound replacers under all the drums but that's not always the answer. To do it right by hand. one at a time, is time consuming and not everyone has that budget and to use the soundreplacer program in PT's isn't good enough, the transients don't line up and I can hear (what my friend calls) the squidgyness!!!

I will never understand the logic behind recording a drum track and then replacing it with samples! I have never heard a production I liked where this has been done. If a drummer comes into my studio my job is to record the sound of his/her instrument and playing, using my experience of mics/pre-amps and placement etc as best I can in the room. Sure, I'd process the resulting sound, but I'd never accept a total replacement, not to mention the time spent doing this which would almost certainly be better spent elsewhere in the overall production process. Is there something wrong with this approach?

Buying gear simply to follow music production trends is an expensive exercise in tail-chasing, the only benefit of which (for the rest of us) is the re-appearance of most of it one year later on eBay.

[natpub]

OK, so no one answered your first question, and I dont know the answer, but I think you deserve one. However, I would just email them, since they are, from what I hear, pretty nice about replying.

Anyway, yes, loose the beta! Holy gods that is the wrong mic, e. And, sure, mess with mic placement and multi-mics, but IMO this whole multi mic thing just gets rediculous.

Try changing snare drums or re-tuning. I am coming from a training background as musican here, and not engineer, but I truly find better results to get that explosive, cutting snare by altering snare or tuning within the complex of the KEY the song is in. I have found that many engineers do not consider the musical frame of the key the song is in.

What I go for is a dissonant fundamental pitch, and the more dissonance the better. Thus, If the song is in A, then tune the snare to A-flat or B. Quarter-tonal or smaller units tend to become un-processable by Western listeners, so I would stick to diatonic units.

I will note that I have been having lots of problems with "pussysnare" hitters. Which is why I am exploring the Transient Designer, or whatever it's called. As a producer, i can bitch and bitch, but sometimes the drummer just aint got the shit.

peace,

kurt t.
austin,tx

[natpub]

I will never understand the logic behind recording a drum track and then replacing it with samples!

Praise the Lord!

I am so pleased to see someone with the same feelings :-)

I mean, I am as willing as the next producer to FIX my more "crappy" clients in any way I can. And, I can make a fair arguement for blending in some sample. And yes, I am guilty of replacement. Still, it seems to me that replacement is kind of an admission that either the tracking was ****ed up, or the player sucked. If it is the latter, then OK, Houston, we have a problem...

I myself am moving towards "transient" control. I can change the drum, the tuning, the pre, the mics, etc, but I cant change the player. If he (or she) is that bad, then I may have to replace. Hell, I have ended up doing micro-edits to fix this crap (if they cant keep time, or refuse a click--I usually avoid clicks, depending on style, but some guys NEED em, lol).

At any rate, I was always happpy listening to songs with real drums in my youth, and I have a horrible time signing on to this over used trend of sample replacement.

Considering the fact that the biggest and most lasting hits are always the ones that defy the status quo of corporate homogineity, in the end, I would opt for truth and originality.


bang-a-gong,
kt
austx

[Gone Fission]

Originally posted by natpub

I myself am moving towards "transient" control. I can change the drum, the tuning, the pre, the mics, etc, but I cant change the player. If he (or she) is that bad, then I may have to replace.

And for those who don't know what a "transient" is, that would be a drummer who's girlfriend kicked him out. Ba dum bum!

I'll be here all week!

Bear

[jameslugo]

How many singers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One, he holds the bulb and the room revolves around him.
Ba dum bum!

[brownmouse]

i'd definitely agree with mic'ing the side of the shell of he snare. since i tried it the first time, i've been mic'ing the side about 95% of the time. it seems i get more "crack" and less "boink" of the head. you can move the mic up or down or away from the shell to get a balance that suits. also, be sure to listen to the snare with the overheads on (not just solo'd) because half the snare sound comes from the overhead mics (at least in my case). fwiw, i usually use a beyer m-201 and/or shure sm-57 into either a phoenix drs-2 or great river mp-2nv.
good luck
joshua

[jho]

Originally posted by jameslugo
The thing is I go in the room and the snare is slammin'. I put a Beta 57 on top and a 57 on bottom and when I hear it back it sounds different. It has a popping sound, it sounds wierd to my ears. Most of the tone seems to come from the overs.

Put a mic right where it sounds slamming to you...ear level, or whatever. Record the snare alone, like a dozen hits.

Now use Soundreplacer and drop those in...vary it up for natural sound.

Or better yet record 16 of them from low to high velocity then retrigger with Battery.

Just a thought. I've done this similar thing with success but YMMV.

[brownmouse]

could it be some phase issues that you are hearing? maybe try just 1 mic? just a thought.... might help... might not.
good luck
joshua

[DigitalAnalog]

I’ve never worried too much about the pre-amps, they seem to be the least of my problems…

I start with the acoustics and the human factor. At the top of my list for a good snare sound is a good snare. Properly tuned and dampened and well played. A good room is important.

For mics,I like a 57 above and below as well as a D2 on the shell. I like to experiment with phase and levels when I mix to get the best combined sound from these mics.

Now, here’s a kicker from an engineering point. A lot of times the overheads are a critical part of the drum sound and there’s usually a ton of snare in them. You’ve probably noticed that the close mic’s solo’d sound one way, the OH’s solo’d give a different sound and then when you combine them you get yet a third sound, often way crappier. This is where the real phase issue comes into play. Using a simple little formula, I can delay the signals from the close mics to be pretty much in phase with the overheads! This can make an enormous difference in the sound. [I experiment the same way when I combine a DI’d bass signal and a mic’d cabinet].

Afterall,, the snare’s soundwave arriving at the overheads is significantly later the one’s going into the close mic’s. The difference is 1ms for every 1.13 feet the overhead mic’s are positioned away from the snare drum. So, if the OH mics are 9’ away, delay the close mics by 8ms and you’ll be in phase. This can really tighten up the drum mix. [You can do the same thing with the kik and toms if they are prominent in your overheads.]

Check it out.