Hands Up who use a Summing Box!

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by electropoet

Hey Brad...what did you use to pad the signal from mic to preamp. I see the pad affects input gain...so i guess putting a pad between between the preamp and the A/D wouldn't do much good as you'd wind up cranking the gain anyways, thereby effecting the mids to get a good signal into the computer...is this right and would the atty handle the job?

The reason why the Pacifica sounds extra big and thick with the pad engaged is that the pad is after the input transformer in the circuit. I believe with something like an API it's the other way around. Very clever design really.

Anyway...I used an Audio Technica inline lo-Z pad that is switchable between 10, 20, or 30 dB of attenuation. Putting a pad after the preamp would have an even different effect because now you'd be hitting the output transformer differently. So the coloration would be subtley different than engaging the Pacifica's pad. But it may sound really cool. You'd have to try it. The ATTY works great for attenuating the output of preamps.

Brad

[Bob Yordan]

Originally Posted by never174

I have the Inward Connections DMC 1 summing mixer with 8 mic pre's and monitor section. It's the best purchase i have made in a long time. A great piece.

There was summing mixer shoot out a while back at Vintage king, and I thought the Inward Connections 16 x 2, sounded the best, that time.


Best wishes.

[electropoet]

Thanks Brad...couldn't find any info that inline pad you talked about but look into it more in the future...i'm pretty happy with the sound right now...and levels aren't a huge issue because I can easily adjust the gain of the inputs on the soundcard...but it sounds like i kind of get boxed in 1 sound since my main vocal mic doesn't have a pad on it. Thanks.

[Windtaken]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

The reason why the Pacifica sounds extra big and thick with the pad engaged is that the pad is after the input transformer in the circuit. I believe with something like an API it's the other way around. Very clever design really.

Anyway...I used an Audio Technica inline lo-Z pad that is switchable between 10, 20, or 30 dB of attenuation. Putting a pad after the preamp would have an even different effect because now you'd be hitting the output transformer differently. So the coloration would be subtley different than engaging the Pacifica's pad. But it may sound really cool. You'd have to try it. The ATTY works great for attenuating the output of preamps.

Brad

Is it the pad that directly affects the sound or is it the makeup gain required?

[Albert]

I'm using a Speck X.Sum to sum the busses from the DAW after they've been snet through the outboard, and also to sum the aux returns. The X.Sum sounds great to me, big and clean.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by Windtaken

Is it the pad that directly affects the sound or is it the makeup gain required?

It's the amount of additional gain that affects the sound. The pad shouldn't affect the sound in and of itself. It's the input/output gain difference that changes the color of the audio.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by OldTimey

If you are really hearing a difference, you can prove it by bouncing a stereo track, importing it into the mix, flipping the phase...the ITB mix in real time should cancel the internal bounce if they are bit for bit accurate. Otherwise you might be onto something no? Have you tried this?

Generally, they won't really try this, as it puts the lie to one of the digital summing superstitions.

Now as to going OTB with the mix, the preamp will add a lot of color, the summing boxes will lose a bit of fidelity in a way that some people find pleasing, but a lot of this may be due to the converters. Converters run cleanly won't do much, but what many mastering engineers do is intentionally clip their converters going in...the resulting square waves are extremely harmonically rich and add a lot of POW! to the sound. Better converters will do this better (pure squares aren't very pleasant).

The effect can be safely left to an analog mastering chain. But just like multiband compression gives the naive mixer a taste of the Orban processing they hear on the radio, running the mix back in and out of the converters gives them a taste of analog mastering chains they hear on albums.

Problem being that once the mastering engineer gets it, those peaks have already been dazzled that way, and the fidelity is another generation off, all with lower-quality gear than the mastering chain has. For self-mastered little projects, go to town. But I would go easy on the 2bus, try to retain fidelity, go OTB only if you want the color of a preamp or whatever hardware you have, for anything that matters. Work with a good mastering engineer from there.

[Jim Williams]

I have it set up both ways, the computer mix is sent out via RME9652 to my custom Mytek/Mark Levinson DAC I helped design with Michal via Kimber AGSS silver cable. The DAC is BurrBrown PCM1704 based with some 6000 v/us slew rate current feedback opamps, direct coupled, biased class A. That's fed into the "summing" box, the Soundcraft Delta console 2-track return.

The analog path is taken from the Alesis HD24XR and routed into the line inputs of the Delta console via Kimber PBJ and some silver teflon cables. The HD24 has AKM 4393 DAC's with Linear Tech LT1359 opamps, direct coupled. It's slew rate is 10 times slower than the Mytek at 600 v/us, still quick.

Sometimes I'll set up a rough mix on the PC and route it out and then match it via the HD24 into the console. A simple push of the 2-track return switch allows instant A/B comparisons. It always amazes me how the console mix just wraps around you while the ITB mix is so flat to the wall. I hear no difference in top end details like one would expect with an analog console, but mine is tricked out to prevent that and I also take critical tracks out digital to feed more BurrBrown DAC's. You do hear more full punch off the console but the top end is almost identical. I think it's the best of both worlds as I have the punch and depth of analog while retaining the details and top end claity of the digital mix.

The worst part is when working on tracks during a mix I often forget which mode I'm listening to. Sometimes I'll move the mouse and I don't hear anything (it's the console mix you dummy!) and sometimes I'll move a fader on the Soundcraft and nothing happens, it's the computer mix. I also find I use the tech half of my brain when working off the computer but once I'm at the console and the outboard gear it switches over to the artistic half and things flow without thought, like shifting gears in a car.

Any of you experience this when working in either format?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

It's the amount of additional gain that affects the sound. The pad shouldn't affect the sound in and of itself. It's the input/output gain difference that changes the color of the audio.

In the case of the Pacifica specifically, the use of the unit's pad affects the tone in a big way. I've found that when I want to preserve the more mid-forward character imparted by that preamp then it's best for me to use another pad so that the signal that hits the input transformer is lower.

With most other preamps you won't find this kind of behavior because of the way the pad circuitry is implemented.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The worst part is when working on tracks during a mix I often forget which mode I'm listening to. Sometimes I'll move the mouse and I don't hear anything (it's the console mix you dummy!) and sometimes I'll move a fader on the Soundcraft and nothing happens, it's the computer mix. I also find I use the tech half of my brain when working off the computer but once I'm at the console and the outboard gear it switches over to the artistic half and things flow without thought, like shifting gears in a car.

Any of you experience this when working in either format?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I think I can relate. I've found that incorporating a control surface into my workflow has definitely allowed me to forget about computer hot keys and menu commands and other ridiculous things that have nothing to do with music. I actually have forgotten how to use my DAW software without the controller. I had to look up a bunch of simple commands in the manual the other day when trying to use Cubase at home on my laptop. Doh!

Brad

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

In the case of the Pacifica specifically, the use of the unit's pad affects the tone in a big way. I've found that when I want to preserve the more mid-forward character imparted by that preamp then it's best for me to use another pad so that the signal that hits the input transformer is lower.

With most other preamps you won't find this kind of behavior because of the way the pad circuitry is implemented.

Brad

The tone is affected, yes, but it is not affected AT the pad. It is affected at the input or output stages ("hitting the trannies.") The pad itself does not affect the tone, the influence of the pad affects the degree that the transformers color the sound. This is how I understand it, and that's what I was saying, sorry if I wasn't clear. I guess we're really just saying the same thing.

[Brad McGowan]

Yep. I just wanted to clarify for Windtaken.

Brad

[Windtaken]

Confused a little but thanks...

Let me try again.

If the gain is set to max (and for some reason it doesn't clip ) it will sound the same as if the gain were set to max and the pad was engaged? Just with less loudness? Or would it be different?

I understood it that if the gain was set higher then it would colour the sound in a different way. So with the pad engaged, it simply lets you set the gain higher.

Yes/no?

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Yep. I just wanted to clarify for Windtaken.

Brad

Cool.

Didn't know about the Audio Technica. I've got two ATTYs and four Shure A15AS, and it's really fun experimenting with hitting different stages of gear with different levels.

Anyways, back to summing boxes (sorry, don't have anything to add there...never tried one...I guess if I did, it would be one with a lot of color to achieve "a sound..." I don't think I'd expect it to make everything I do automatically "better," tho.)

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Windtaken

I understood it that if the gain was set higher then it would colour the sound in a different way. So with the pad engaged, it simply lets you set the gain higher.

Yes/no?

Yes, I believe that's it!