Middle8 = Key Change

[quietdrive]

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[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Your thoughts please...

Do you always use a key change for the middle8? If so, is there any formula you use to figure out which key to change to?

I love Middle8's, gives you an opportunity to add a huge contrast to the song. I've noticed that Top40 music mostly uses "near key" changes. Usually only one new chord is being used in the Middle8 and it automatically introduces the key change. The other chords have been used before, in previous sections of the songs. That makes it easier to transition back to the original key of the song.

I think you might be confusing a "key change' with something else. A key change, or what's called a "modulation", would have mostly different chords from the bulk of the tune.

However, a change from,say, relative major to relative minor, would introduce a new chord or sequence, but still in the original key. For example, imagine you're in C major and your progression is C, F, D min, G7. You then "modulate" to the relative minor, the VI chord, your progression then might go like this: A min, E min, F, G7. See? Two "new" chords

There are no set rules for modulations - anything goes, Stevie Wonder often modulated entire chord progressions up by half steps in the out tros of his songs, so the progression C, D min, F, G7 would go Db, Gb, Eb min, Ab7 etc.........go for it.

Ed

[PlatinumSamples]

"The Middle Eight" is referred to as "The Bridge" in the US. Usually the "modulation" follows the Chorus after the bridge in most arrangements (which had a modulation)... How many songs released in the last 2 years had a modulation?

Rail

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Thats why it's usually a "near key change", as I described above.

I've never heard the term "near key change" - and frankly, since there is no such thing, I hope not to ever again

Ed

[woomanmoomin]

My view is that there is some overlap between modulation and bridges within a key and actual key changes. You could look at what happens in certain songs either way. Nirvana, for instance, used to come up with chord sequences that really laid into any standard idea of key tonality, but actually I'd mostly call what they were doing taking liberties and not changing keys. Whatever. The fact that a passage crops up where the register is significantly higher or lower than it has been elsewhere in the song does not indicate that there's been a key change. It's the relationship between the chords, or between the sets of chords, that is important.

IMO, though, anyone who thinks this methodically about music they haven't even written yet is just asking to come out with a lot of formulaic cheese on a par with Whitney Houston's cover of 'I Will Always Love You'. Please note that I only mention that particular version of that particular song because I think it's freakin' awful.

I think every songwriter or potential songwriter could probably benefit to an amazing extent from listening to stuff like Zappa, Beefheart, The Stooges' album 'Fun House', and a lot of other stuff that chucks acid in the face of formula and often sounds very powerful. 'Fun House' is probably the best example. It was recorded, quickly, in a studio full of furniture and 'bad' reflections, using some pretty spartan gear and with little or no regard for anything more formulaic than plain old groove. There are big splatty sax sounds in there etc. etc., just whatever the guys wanted, wherever they wanted it, and to me it is a freakin' amazing album. Jack White agrees, apparently.

An acquaintance of mine plays dirty bass in a band (probably influenced by Sonic Youth most of all) and was once asked the very same question you ask here. He looked very coldly at his inquisitor and said, 'We don't do middle eights.' I would far rather listen to bands like that than to people who actually seem to think the way to make a fresh, appealing product is to scoop a lot of old leftovers out of the bin and stick them on a plate.

In this context, it might be worth listening to something like the album 'Entertainment!' by Gang of Four. They were a British post-punk outfit with a musical manifesto banning certain words, all rhymes, key changes and obvious melodies. In a 2005 run-down of what it claimed to be the 100 greatest guitarists of all time, the UK music magazine 'Uncut' rated the Gang of Four guitarist, Andy Gill, as number 40.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

usually contains a slightly different key and notes.

tutt How do you get a "slightly different" key? Either it changes keys or it doesn't. There is no inbetween. Well, there is, but not in 99.9% of pop music. You need to do more homework on what a "key change" is I believe. Slightly different notes refers to a chord change NOT a key change, and rarely do I do a "key change" in rock or pop music. It always sounds too......Broadway musical. Chord changes? Yeah, often.

[drBill]

Oh yeah, and I try NOT to listen to the Backstreet boys or Brittany.

[uncle duncan]

Sometimes the lyric defines how the bridge is treated. If the bridge lyric makes the song turn a corner, perhaps the music would do the same - setting up a modulation, or a breakdown. If it makes a declaritive statement, the bridge could reflect that. The only rule is to use your intuition and imagination. Sometimes, a bridge is 4 measures. Or 5. Or 8. Or 10. Some songs don't need a bridge. In fact, sticking a bridge where it's not needed is a good way to kill a song.
I don't know if you saw that thread a few days ago about formulaic songwriting. If you didn't, perhaps you should go back and read it.

Arrangements / Songwriting / Song Structures

Dude - that's your thread! 3 pages explaining how writing songs to a formula is an exercise in futility. And you're back! I mean, I'll admit that learning to recognize song structure is part of how you learn the craft, but the way your post is worded, it sounds like you want to write songs to some preset formula, which is really really lame. No offense my friend. It's just that, at some point, you've got to exercise your creativity, without worrying about the rules. That's what differentiates art from copycat crap.
Sorry to sound pissy, but after spending 20 minutes trying to help out a brother, and then finding out I already went through the exact same thing 2 weeks ago...it's frustrating. (Man, I need to double up on my memory pills.)

[jbuntz]

Modal borrowing and deceptive cadences are sort of "near key changes" I suppose. Like on that Gnarls Barkley song where there's a picardy third on the bridge but goes right back into the minor key for the rest of it. Or look at a song like "Love Me Tender" when there's tons of dominants that aren't the V of the tonic. So don't say a "near key change" doesn't exist just because it's not in your music theory textbook glossary.

Middle 8's/Bridges almost always at least go to a new mode ie, start on a different chord. Something along the lines of a II - V - I works a lot if you've been doing I - IV - V ish stuff works well a lot of times. There's not a single trick to doing it to go by. Study songs you like and find out what they are doing that you like.

[woomanmoomin]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

The only rule is to use your intuition and imagination.

And that, uncle duncan, is a pretty nice way of summing up everything we've all been writing on these threads over the last couple of weeks!

Quoting jbuntz:

...look at a song like "Love Me Tender" when there's tons of dominants that aren't the V of the tonic.

It took me a few seconds to remember that passage, but this sort of effect is one reason why I really like the blues and a lot of blues-inflected music. You've got all these dominant sevenths all over the place, building up this sense of expectancy, and yes, I suppose that for some people, maybe including quietdrive, such chords could provoke a feeling that the key tonality had been undermined or was about to change. (I'm reminded of some of the funky rhythm guitar Jerry Harrison used to play with Talking Heads on songs like 'Found A Job' on their album 'More Songs About Buildings And Food'. Lots of nice prolonged dominant sevenths. Spicy, maybe even unsettling.) I've found dominant sevenths to be pretty useful outside the blues as well, because all you have to do is introduce a dominant (or major) seventh into a chord progression and, hey presto, you've got an excuse for a new section to your song! Just as useful as diminished sevenths, augmenteds, etc.

[Empty Planet]

Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples

"The Middle Eight" is referred to as "The Bridge" in the US....

Rail

With all respect, I'm in the US, and I only refer to it as a middle eight. People who refer to a "bridge" are often not in agreement as to what exactly that is, whether it's a middle eight, or a pre-chorus, or the chorus itself. I try to leave the word "bridge" out of my discussions of structure, just to avoid the confusion.

As to where, when, and if one should modulate, in the middle eight, or any other part of the tune, you're going to have to let your impressions of where the tune should go tell you that. One thing that's definitely helped me is to listen closely to songs I really like and try to understand what's happening when a modulation, or even just an unusual chord change, occurs. Can you see the purpose of that particular change in the context of the song? Was there a change in point of view in the lyric, or a change of some other sort? How did it affect the mood of the song?

Understanding these things to whatever degree still won't give you a road map per se, because this is a creative endeavor and you can take it in any direction you damn well please, but it will give you some experience upon which to draw, and help you to become more fluent in the tools which the songwriter has at his or her disposal, and that's pretty great, actually.

Good luck with it.


Cheers.

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Dude - that's your thread! 3 pages explaining how writing songs to a formula is an exercise in futility. And you're back! I mean, I'll admit that learning to recognize song structure is part of how you learn the craft, but the way your post is worded, it sounds like you want to write songs to some preset formula, which is really really lame. No offense my friend. It's just that, at some point, you've got to exercise your creativity, without worrying about the rules. (Man, I need to double up on my memory pills.)

I think it's an age thing (No offence intended to the OP starter).

I would have started a thread like this 10years ago if I was online and active like I am now, with forum resources such as GS.

Now, I just start other annoying threads (some would say)...

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by jbuntz

Modal borrowing and deceptive cadences are sort of "near key changes" I suppose.

I thought of deceptive cadences and modal borrowing when i responded, but they're still just that: deceptive cadences and borrowed chords, not key changes ( a key change is usually denoted with a new key signature-in pop music, anyway) nor are they the mysterious "near key change" the OP asks about.

However, I do believe you're correct in assuming the OP is hearing these very things as "near key changes".

A tune like Joni Mitchell's "Help Me" is a case study in modal borrowing and deceptive cadences - the tune is in A maj, yet almost every chord is borrowed from A minor - a cool little trick. In fact, I think the A major triad she starts out with is the only standard chord from A major. Yet the tune is firmly rooted in A major.

Ed

[JSVice]

Originally Posted by jbuntz

Or look at a song like "Love Me Tender" when there's tons of dominants that aren't the V of the tonic.

Help me out with that... I thought the very definition of the dominant was that it's the V of the tonic. The word dominant is the name of the degree number. Just like subdominant is the name of the IV and so on. What am I missing here? I must be oversimplifying.

[uncle duncan]

To make up for my negative, pissy post, here's an idea. If there's something important in the lyric, stick an odd chord under it, which will demand the listeners attention. This could be in a chorus, verse, bridge, wherever. Could be a diminished chord, or augmented, or minor. Something using notes that aren't in the regular scale being used for the song.
Say it's a happy song and the lyric is "When are you coming home" and the chords are C and F, with F falling under 'home'. In that case the F could be a straight F major, or dominant 7th, or F 6. If it was a sad song, where the singer knows the chick's never coming home, the F could be an F minor, which would fit the emotion of the lyric better. It's all about giving the lyric more meaning, which is why the bridge structure (if there even is one) will depend not on a formula, but on where the song needs to go at that point.

[woomanmoomin]

Originally Posted by C Heat

I would have started a thread like this 10years ago if I was online and active like I am now, with forum resources such as GS.

The answer would have been the same 10 years ago...

1) Hear some music
2) Realise you like it
3) Listen to some more
4) Learn to play an instrument or at least sing or something
5) Shut up and stop thinking and make some damn music
6) Shut up and stop thinking and make some damn music

uncle duncan, I don't think it's unreasonable that you should get annoyed. IMO what the original poster is really looking for is something like a book called 'Being A Musical Genius For Dummies'. I'm sorry, but that is absolutely not the way it works. Does anyone here actually think Picasso went up to his art teacher and said something like, 'Hey, I was wondering whether you could teach me how to be a creative genius?' Of course he didn't. Instead he spent about seventy years perfecting the art of dismantling other people's lame-@ss formulas. As a result, he is genuinely considered to be the greatest artist of the 20th century. Only Jackson Pollock comes close IMO, and he wasn't exactly painting for the chocolate box market either.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Dude - that's your thread! 3 pages explaining how writing songs to a formula is an exercise in futility. And you're back! I mean, I'll admit that learning to recognize song structure is part of how you learn the craft, but the way your post is worded, it sounds like you want to write songs to some preset formula, which is really really lame. No offense my friend. It's just that, at some point, you've got to exercise your creativity, without worrying about the rules. That's what differentiates art from copycat crap.
Sorry to sound pissy, but after spending 20 minutes trying to help out a brother, and then finding out I already went through the exact same thing 2 weeks ago...it's frustrating. (Man, I need to double up on my memory pills.)

Great, I havent followed this thread anymore since it went into a totally wrong direction. Structure & Forumula guys vs. "Art guys" who say "**** all structure, using structure is selling out". Not really what I wanted from the thread. Plus this specific topic hasnt really been discussed in it.

[Sensenel]

i think that is a classic thread which should follow the rule : there's is no Rule !

sometimes the song itself dictates the middle 8 thru vocals or Instruments , some compose almost new stuff for the middle 8 which has actualy nothing to do with the main score , some see the middle8 as an moment were the song is remixing itself , some use the middle 8 to place an more detailed chorus with modulations' n stuff, some artist use middle8 as the end of a song , some use the middle to come down cause the rest before is raw power all the time , ... and so on and so on ... sometimes it is a kinda concept , sometimes it is an logical following of what happend before ...

for me, it depends what kind, what message, what feeling, what idea, what flow, radio or extended mix -means, label politics are also involved sonmetimes... if it sounds good , it sounds good ... up to your expierience !

cheers

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Well... listen to all Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Kelly Clarkson or whatever Top40 Pop Songs. The Middle8 or Bridge (I'm talking about the section between the 2nd and last chorus) usually contains a slightly different key and notes. Either the vocal notes of the middle8 are significantly higher or lower than in the previous section, which adds a nice contrast to the song.

I think you are confusing Key Change with the variety of functions a chord can have ....

Lets say the bulk of your song is C,F,Am and G , any one of those chords can function as modalities in other keys ....for example C can function as the V chord for the key of F which will give a Bb major chord to introduce into you Mid8 , alternatively G can function as the IV chord of the Key of D , which will give you D and Bm to muck around with, F can function as the V chord of the key of Bb which will give you an Eb to muck around with and so on and so on.....

Then there is using the relative minor key for the Mid8, in this case Aminor which you might resolve by using it's V chord E or E7......

[garysjo]

Although I am a muzic schooled guy (many moons ago), I now think of a good bridge as a section of the song that takes you somewhere else, or introduces a different perspective, musically and lyrically. An outsider looking in perhaps. I know this borders on "can you make it more purple sounding please," however I think to give it more theoretical thought ends up sounding contrived instead of emotional. Of course the best songwriters I've known tend to be uneducated.....hmmmmm.

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

YouTube - Leaving Town
Listen to the Middle8 of the song above "Leaving Town", that's what I mean by "near key change".

I listened to your first tune, how could you possibly not know if the thread is not answering your question when you don't know what the answer is supposed to be?

How arrogant of you.

In fact, your question was answered, quite well in fact, you should be thanking us instead of insulting us.

The first youtube song you posted has NO KEY CHANGE in the middle 8, rather, as I and others here have pointed out, it merely goes to the six chord and descends, diatonically, to the four chord. Very simple.

No key change and no "near key change".

The whole tune uses the one, four, six and five chords, they're merely rearranged and held for longer duration for the middle 8.

Here's what I suggest you do: find a good teacher locally, take harmony and theory 101 and stop posting stupid questions to professionals on message boards.

Ed

[aeroc]

the beatles always spent a lot of time trying to get their middle 8. it seems it was almost a game or a chore to them. i believe their methods were just to try things until something worked. they knew it had to be strong and fit in the song properly so they'd just keep going until those requirements were there and it felt right. if you read a lot of their studio journal type things or numerous other publications and "day in the life" books you'll see their experiences dealing with "the middle 8" popping up all the time!

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by aeroc

the beatles always spent a lot of time trying to get their middle 8. it seems it was almost a game or a chore to them. i believe their methods were just to try things until something worked. they knew it had to be strong and fit in the song properly so they'd just keep going until those requirements were there and it felt right. if you read a lot of their studio journal type things or numerous other publications and "day in the life" books you'll see their experiences dealing with "the middle 8" popping up all the time!

Please - STOP ALREADY, the OP doesn't want info like this, he wants a quick answer to an uneducated question, he doesn't want to do the hard work and years of learning necessary to do the job.

Nope, he wants a quick fix, like a software algorithm that'll give him, in five minutes, the answer he so desires - so endemic and pervasive is this of young people today, like sampling a drum beat, he wants to push a button and presto, there's his middle 8, all done for him "near key change"(sic) and all. tutt

Sad, really sad.....

Ed

[drBill]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Ed, I love you man. I seriously do. If you dig boys in their 20s, gimme a call.. I'd love to come over to Connecticut and spend some 1 on 1 time with you. Be my sugar daddy, will you?

Dude, you've got a pretty serious attitude problem going for you. I think what you don't understand is that your posts are OFF TOPIC. You come to a high end GEAR / Recording forum and started asking music questions that are simplistic at best. I'm surprised the mods haven't tossed this thread. This is a gear / recording related forum. Not a music writing forum. I mean...it's GEARslutz after all. Come on, what do you expect. You got some good answers and some attitude. Maybe you should just take it with a little grace and good humor and let it be.

I will tell you this. Attitude and people skills will get you way further in your career than knowing how to make a "near key change" in the middle 8.

Here's a suggestion. Perhaps your next post should be asking for directions to a forum like gearslutz that is focused on the writing and arranging of music. I'm sure you'd get some good input on that. Until then, let your "drive" be "quiet".

[drBill]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Mister Sharp11 was being very very arrogant, talking down to me. I guess it makes him feel good about himself, no clue. I didnt saw any other way to respond to it than with sarcasm. Not my issue that some people here cant handle it. He's twice my age and should have more manners than this.

Are you new to internet forums? That's to be expected if you come onto a top level pro recording forum and start asking rudimentary novice questions. If you can't take arrogance, perhaps private instruction would suit you better than an on-line forum. And so if he doesn't have manners, then you don't need them either? Take it with good graces and don't turn it into a

dfegad

BTW, I still suggest you take my advice to heart and look for a MUSIC WRITING forum to voice your elementary music questions.

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Mister Sharp11 was being very very arrogant, talking down to me.

I chose to disrespect you only after you dismissed our excellent answers to your original post - with an arrogant shrug no less.

A lot of us here are quite accomplished - we took the time to try and help you and you decided we weren't worth your time when you didn't like the answers you got.

I reported your post, now deleted, as I found it abusive, at best.

Ed

[uncle duncan]

Here's a forum about music theory and songwriting, over at JustPlainFolks.org
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthre...cc4a50b3aae126

[pete]

check out the beatles - its all in their songs...

[macle]

Paul McCartney has a story about From Me To You, going from the key of C to Gm in the bridge, which, I guess, is now the key of F, and then slips back around to C, and how that discovery opened up the songwriting door for them. Lady Madonna is another one that comes to mind. Lucy In The Sky changes key a number of times, as well as tempo.

I love that sort of stuff, especially when it's done in a way that is so subtle you don't notice it. Elton John changes key a lot, sometimes from verse to chorus. Goodbye Yellow Brick Road is an interesting one because the verse and chorus are in F, but only the musical lick between them changes key.

Songs now, it seems, barely change chords (not that there's anything wrong with that) let alone keys , except maybe those god awful Diane Warren-type ballads.

That first you tube song cracks me up. Probably the most cliche chords of the modern post punk edgy hip bullshit era. I use them whenever I want to make myself queasy.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

YouTube - Leaving Town
Listen to the Middle8 of the song above "Leaving Town", that's what I mean by "near key change".

I'm so humiliated. Everything I said about being creative and not following formulas. Wrong! This song, 'Leaving Town' is the perfect example of the perfect bridge. Just go to the 6m. No matter what the song is doing, when it's time for the bridge, just go to the 6m. Whether it needs a bridge or not, just go to the 6m. Never fails. The 6m rules. The 6m is perfection. It doesn't get any better than the 6m.
So what if it's a cliche? So what if it's boring and predictable? It works. People will know instantly when they hear the 6m. They'll say "Here comes the bridge". Even Brittany Spears would recognize it. "That's the bridge, right?" she'd say, popping her bubble gum.
I'm so glad this thread straightened me out. No more fumbling around for an innovative bridge. No more trying key changes, or 'near key changes'. I'm going with the 6m from now on.