Vocal Arrangements

[quietdrive]

1. If your a songwriter, how do you arrange vocals? Do you just go by what feels right, without even knowing what key your song is in? Or do you have every single note of the melody worked out before you record, and written down on a note sheet?

2. If your a producer, how do you work out the vocal arrangements? Do you just have your client sing the song, with a rough idea of what the melody sounds like, and record part by part until everything sounds right? Or do you work it all out before recording?

[brockf]

As a songwriter, I know what key the song is in simply because I wrote the chord progression that I'm singing over. And, even if I don't really know the key, I have a good enough ear that I just sing what sounds right. I don't write any notes down, though, and I definitely just go with my gut feeling when I'm recording. Harmonies are done afterwards they way I hear them in my head.

[dreamsongs]

In any given song, there are many ways you can perform certain lines or certain words. Some ways are better than others for various reasons.

It's OK to go with your gut and certainly some phrases might end up the way you sung it originally on your first pass. But vocals are not any different than any other instrument. You have to work out the parts ahead of time for the best possible performance.

Whether you wrote the song and are singing it yourself or are producing a song for someone else the rules are the same. Have the singer try a (go with your gut) take and see where it goes. As a producer, it is your job to bring out the best performance. Often, singers are looking exactly for this type of feedback.

I'm currently working with this very talented girl but her interpretation of some material leaves a lot to be desired. She's got incredible vocal chops but left to her own devices, she can give less than a stellar performance.

In this case, I'm always on top of every line and give her suggestions as to what the song needs or how to improve on some lines. At the end, we always come up with many diverse variations and many vocal tracks.

After that, put your Producer hat and get to work. You should be able to put an awesome vocal track you can be proud of...

[mjlaudio]

are there any good resources for vocal arrangement sheet music.....id love to see scores of the beach boys, queen and beatles not to mention tons of other bands

[picksail]

Ya know...I like this guy, Quietdrive.

He always seems to create some of the most compelling and pertinent posts that I've seen here.

I appreciate the fact that he has no shame in asking the questions.

Good job man!!!

[numrologst]

for every singer it's gonna be different.

For me as a songwriter... I rarely write songs, but when I do... I have a melody line in my head before I record the songs... But usually no lyrics... Then after the song has it's basis, I go back and come up with the melody line on the piano and make sure I can hit all the notes.

With my songwriter in my band... It's almost a total different story. He has a chord progression in mind and sings a melody to it. Then he builds the songs around maybe just a quick 1 or 2 bar line... SO the songs develop around that line...

It usually involves a scratch track where he half sings, mumbles, and hums... THen once the song gets closer to completion, he writes the rest of the lyrics/vocal line.

I usually roll him through the song 3 or 4 times for him to get aquainted... If he's got pitch problems, or is singing weird notes... Then we go work the lines out on the piano, until he is more comfortable.

Harmonies are totally different... Unless the singer has perfect or near perfect pitch, then I will usually sit in the control room and play the notes on the keyboard while they are singing, so that they have the notes to reference.

Some of the more complicated harmonies we will write out... For the ones I write, I usually have a pretty good sense of notes and intervals in my head... So I will listen to a track and think and try to hear it in my head... Then I go play them on the piano or keyboard... After that I'll record all the parts on a synth patch or something and see/hear how the sound together, then with the song. SOmetimes what i hear in my head is right, sometimes it just takes working them out on the keys... But always if necessary I will have nuendo take the midi stuff that I played and it will notate them for singers who can read music

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by mjlaudio

are there any good resources for vocal arrangement sheet music.....id love to see scores of the beach boys, queen and beatles not to mention tons of other bands

Download this program called "Guitar Pro" from ultimate-guitar.com

After that, search for Tabs of the song you're looking for, but make sure they're "Guitar Pro" Tabs. Download, load it in the program, and you're done. Usually most of those Tabs include full instrumentation of the songs, including vocals, and you can pretty much see every note that is being played in the song. Amazing tool. Use it all the time to analyze songs and figure out arrangements of songs.

[TorchMusic]

>>I'd love to see scores of the beach boys, queen and beatles

MJL -

There's a great book called The Beatles - Complete Scores which has transcriptions of the instrumental and vocal arrangements.

[dreamsongs]

I think the poster is asking about vocal arrangements which to me means exactly that. If every time you write a song you always sing it the way it first pops in your head, it might work...or not.

I find that this doesn't apply as much to Country music as it is usually sung pretty much straight ahead. But in Pop and R&B music it makes a huge difference. There are some songs that benefit greatly from well thought out vocal arrangements.

How you're going to apoproach and deliver the lines, where to make the runs and color some notes makes the difference between an OK song and a great one. Assuming you already have a good song to begin with. Often times I need to hire a female for some material and this is what I look for. If they don't instictively perform this way, then I instruct them as to what I want.

Sometimes I'll be pleasantly surprised when I hear a great singer turn one of my OK songs into something useable because of a great vocal performance. The melody and the lead vocals is what a listener first hears so you can't screw around with this. It needs to be near perfect if possible.

The above all pertains to lead vox. BV is an entirely different animal and probably another thread.

Of course there are many post tracking tricks to enhance a vocal but it needs to be great before the mix...

[BezowinZ]

I'm curious about how folks write for background vocals.

When I write, I always know the key because I wrote the progression. I write the melody as well, though some singers will enhance it(or screw it up). But the background vocals...

I tend to write very simple 2-3 part harmony, usually based on a keyboard or horn part that I wrote. I really need to stretch things out as I use very similar techniques on most tunes. I feel I'm relying too much on singers' ability to enhance what I've writen.

Anyone care to share some background vocal writing techniques?

[luctellier]

We often use Melodyne. I copy/paste the lead vocal track, move it to the 3rd, 5th and play with the arrangement. We I like the back vocal created, I learn it and record it. Same thing with lead vocal sometimes.

[mizzle]

Originally Posted by BezowinZ

I'm curious about how folks write for background vocals.

When I write, I always know the key because I wrote the progression. I write the melody as well, though some singers will enhance it(or screw it up). But the background vocals...

I tend to write very simple 2-3 part harmony, usually based on a keyboard or horn part that I wrote. I really need to stretch things out as I use very similar techniques on most tunes. I feel I'm relying too much on singers' ability to enhance what I've writen.

Anyone care to share some background vocal writing techniques?

There are many approaches to vocal harmonization. Way too many to be covered in depth here. Studying harmony and inversions in general is a good place to start.
It also helps to study SATB choral music, string quartets, and horn arrangements.
The method of arrangement is highly dependant on style, but I can give a few geneal tips.

1) Be respectful of the melody (lead/1rst voice). Make sure that your harmonies/backing vox are not obscuring the lead melodic line.
2) Be careful of crossing voices, when individual lines get crossed it can become confusing to the ear.
3) Try to keep the intervallic distance of a 3rd of more between the 1rst and 2nd voice. The top voice becomes indistinct if harmonized in 2nds.
4) Listen to all of the vocal lines independantly when arranging them. If they sound awkward to you (un-melodic) they are probably hard to sing properly.
5) When things get big and the melody needs some help, try reinforcing it with a voice and octave above or below the original. This really helps when using thick harmonies (4-5 part).

Again, it's really hard to give advice without context as the subject of vocal writing is very broad, but the above considerations are pretty uniform as a basis for most genres.

[woomanmoomin]

If you're using one of the usual condensers for lead vocals, it can be good to record backing vocals on something like a ribbon mic, which will inherently give less presence to vocals and won't crowd the lead line but can also sound smooth and rich. I hate it when I hear a couple of vocal lines that are more or less competing for pride of place in the mix and in my ears, unless that's the point of a given arrangement or whatever.

As far as the theory of harmony goes, it was customary until about the start of the 20th century to make sure the registers of the different parts didn't overlap, e.g. if the range of an alto part stretched from note x up to note y then the lowest note of the soprano part was generally higher than y. Impressionism, Stravinsky, jazz and some other stuff tore this rule to pieces (listen to the backing vocals in just about any 50s standard), but I guess it can be a good rule of thumb if you're looking to record clearly defined background vocal lines that don't clump together or whatever.

As a songwriter, I know exactly what keys and chords I'm dealing with and will build any vocal harmonies accordingly, usually on paper. I normally try to build them up line by line but obviously, this is harmony, and I will often have to tweak a melody if I really want to find a kick-ass harmony or two to go with it. I find that if I just add harmonies after the fact, like table salt or something, then they're often not that special IMO.

I think this is definitely a situation where whatever works for you is the approach you should take, though. Again I end up arguing that nobody can teach you to be a good songwriter. You might come on here and say, 'How do you write a song? Do you start with the lyrics or the music?' I would have to say that my approach shouldn't really be of interest to you. I only apply it because it works for me. I don't care what approaches other people have.

One thing I will say about vocal harmonies is that IMO, if you make them too clever, they will probably suck. Someone has to be able to sing them without feeling as if they've strayed into the Twilight Zone.

I've also gained a lot from studying the theory of harmony, etc. I'm not that great at it, but it definitely helps me get something like a classic effect when I want one, and to know exactly how to avoid getting one.

[BezowinZ]

Originally Posted by mizzle

Studying harmony and inversions in general is a good place to start.
It also helps to study SATB choral music, string quartets, and horn arrangements.

I guess I'm not as bad as I thought I was. I've been using some theory that I would normally use with horn & string arrangements. Maybe I just need to open things up a bit more.

Originally Posted by mizzle

1) Be respectful of the melody (lead/1rst voice). Make sure that your harmonies/backing vox are not obscuring the lead melodic line.
2) Be careful of crossing voices, when individual lines get crossed it can become confusing to the ear.
3) Try to keep the intervallic distance of a 3rd of more between the 1rst and 2nd voice. The top voice becomes indistinct if harmonized in 2nds.
4) Listen to all of the vocal lines independantly when arranging them. If they sound awkward to you (un-melodic) they are probably hard to sing properly.
5) When things get big and the melody needs some help, try reinforcing it with a voice and octave above or below the original. This really helps when using thick harmonies (4-5 part).

Thanks! Hadn't thought of some of this.

[BezowinZ]

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

If you're using one of the usual condensers for lead vocals, it can be good to record backing vocals on something like a ribbon mic, which will inherently give less presence to vocals and won't crowd the lead line but can also sound smooth and rich.

I'm mic deficient at the moment, but I've been applying this when mixing. Good to see I'm on the right track.

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

...I find that if I just add harmonies after the fact, like table salt or something, then they're often not that special IMO...

I think this is definitely a situation where whatever works for you is the approach you should take, though. Again I end up arguing that nobody can teach you to be a good songwriter. You might come on here and say, 'How do you write a song? Do you start with the lyrics or the music?' I would have to say that my approach shouldn't really be of interest to you. I only apply it because it works for me. I don't care what approaches other people have.

Our approach is almost the opposite in this regard. I use what I think is referred to as "groove up" writing. I always start with drums, which inspires a bass groove. I then develop that groove into a progression... I guess I almost write songs on the bass, probably because I was a bassist before I ever wrote a tune. I then develop rhythm parts with guitar or keys, enhancing the progression with inversions, substitutions, ect. Then melody. Then lyrics. Then horns, strings and such. Than bkgrd vocals, which is usually some type of variation on the horn/string arrangement, just adding lyrics.

I need the preceding step to inspire the next step. I'd be hard pressed to write a melody without a groove & harmony to inspire it. I need to hear how those lead notes will play against the harmony. But I always run into trouble when it comes to bkgrd vocals finding that I have to edit horns, strings or other embelishments to get things to work.

After writing that out, maybe I just need to try writing bkgrd vocals before any horn or string arrangements.

[woomanmoomin]

I would probably try writing them all together as a single multi-layered thing on piano or keyboard. Obviously they don't all have to have the same rhythm and your arrangement could be pretty hard to play on piano, especially, because you can't program piano, but I think a good approach is to play harmonies at a keyboard instrument first to check whether they work technically. They may not sound right on a piano, but that's where the instrumentation comes in. If you can put together a nice layered arrangement on the piano, you can hand some of the lines over to brass, some to strings, some to vocals and there's a pretty good chance the result is going to be pretty clear and manageable. Of course, you can take liberties with the approach and assigning the lines to the various instruments/voices, etc.

I still like to run through it all on paper, because that way I can look at the notes and think of the relationships and intervals between them and iron out any stuff I don't want. I can also see how much room there is for ornamentation, melodic runs during transitions, etc.

The result can be a much more coherent song structure IMO.

[Sqye]

..

i usually track the harmonies first forever in the past.

then i single-handedly re-record all the old versions of the harmonies.

at last, i forget what the most harmonies were original.

until then i start all over again when i begin at the beginning (for instance).

that's not ALWAYS so fast hahahah.

..

[woomanmoomin]

Best freakin' post from anyone who is not God, EVER.

[uncle duncan]

A lot of music today is reminiscent of the Beatles: Lead vocal with one harmony below. 2 part harmony can have more bite, where adding a third part can turn it all mushy. You just have to study the music you like, and figure out the parts by ear. If you can't do that, you'll need to hire an arranger, because if you can't work by ear, you're kinda screwed in this business. Of course, theory helps, but if you can't hear the theory in your head, it's not going to mean anything.
The best song production training I got was playing in cover bands and learning (by ear) a couple of well-produced songs every week. That's when you discover that it's all about parts and lines, and that there is very little 'jamming' going in hit songs. Learning Beach Boys and Beatles songs, and doing them right, can really tear you a new one, in the sense that you have to sing and play things that are counter-intuitive to just jamming along with the song like a garage band would do. So many musicians don't have a clue in that respect, especially the ones who never had to learn cover songs. Sometimes that can be a good thing, because the develop their own style. Or it can be a bad thing, when their style is so boring, they need to bring in a producer or arranger to make their music sound like a record.

(EDIT) since no one else has jumped in, here's another tool: Pedal Tone. In the Beatles 'Please Please Me', the verse melody goes down from the root, while the harmony stays on the root the whole time. There's your pedal tone. Then, at the end of the verse, where the hook line is, the melody goes way high and the harmony stays low. There ain't no forumla for that, other than being aware of what the song is asking for.

[hookmaster]

As a producer, I vocal arrange by trade and i can tell you that each technique is different for everybody. For me, I like do everything all at one time. Record/Arrange/Mix. Stacking harmonies and training the singer on each note and record it as we go. It takes time and it requires alot of patience, but the reward is great in the end. Just throwing the singer in the booth to get a rough of the song is suicide. Because most recording artists cling to whatever is recorded the first time and its hard to retrain them on a different idea later. If they have recorded a song we are going to work on earlier, i ask them not to play it for me so I can come with a set of new ideas for the project.

I appreciate this post because there are alot of people out there who ignore this process and it's killing the records that indie artists are putting out today. My hope is that we bring more arrangers back to the industry. Right now there are stars waiting to be discovered. But most have not discovered their voice yet. Arrangement gets them to that point alot faster.

[Kiwi]

I grew up singing harmonies, and later pulling Beatles songs apart. It becomes instinctive, and often i'll write a song with the harmonies in mind.

3 part harmonies are less instinctive, and I generally revert to a piano to figure stuff out, based on chord theory mainly.

Learning The Beatles stuff in chronological order is a great education in chord theory and harmony.

But we can't ignore new technology - it's not going to go away. I'm finding the TC Helicon Voicelive2 to be a great tool for arranging harmonies. It can do it automatically for you, based on analysing the chords - either from midi or from audio. It allows for fast experimenting: do you like the sound of 2 higher parts, or 2 lower parts, or 1 up, one down etc ... very fast to hear what it sounds like.

But even cooler is using it in Notes mode, and playing parts on the keyboard. You can use it like a vocoder, or get really intricate like Queen harmonies. Fun for doing pedal tone stuff, which I love. (Can't resist playing Please Please Me in this mode ...)

Call & Response stuff is a different story - I tend to think it's dated, but never say never.

[theshanonlee]

Same here. As a kid, I used to learn the background harmonies for popular songs before I even memorized the lead vocal. Now, it is very easy for me to to hear the harmony in my head as I write and record my own songs. I will also pull out the keyboard and work on arrangement.

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I grew up singing harmonies, and later pulling Beatles songs apart. It becomes instinctive, and often i'll write a song with the harmonies in mind.

3 part harmonies are less instinctive, and I generally revert to a piano to figure stuff out, based on chord theory mainly.

Learning The Beatles stuff in chronological order is a great education in chord theory and harmony.

But we can't ignore new technology - it's not going to go away. I'm finding the TC Helicon Voicelive2 to be a great tool for arranging harmonies. It can do it automatically for you, based on analysing the chords - either from midi or from audio. It allows for fast experimenting: do you like the sound of 2 higher parts, or 2 lower parts, or 1 up, one down etc ... very fast to hear what it sounds like.

But even cooler is using it in Notes mode, and playing parts on the keyboard. You can use it like a vocoder, or get really intricate like Queen harmonies. Fun for doing pedal tone stuff, which I love. (Can't resist playing Please Please Me in this mode ...)

Call & Response stuff is a different story - I tend to think it's dated, but never say never.

[synthoid]

I write bg vocals in the piano roll, transcribing what I hear for each part. I use a sampler instrument with actual human vocal samples in about the right register to check the arrangement, then I break it into individual lines so that I can prompt the singer with one part at a time while tracking.

My partner, who actually sings most of the bg vocal parts I arrange, writes the parts out on paper as she listens to them and then sings them from the paper. Somehow she prefers writing them out herself, as a way to learn the parts. I think it's a habit she picked up from years ago when she had a job transcribing bg vocal parts from recordings... When other singers sing the bg parts, they tend to do it simply by listening to the guide parts I've prepared.

The only advice I'd offer for writing background parts is to think in terms of lines and not in terms of chords. Good background parts have a melodic interest of their own.

-synthoid