Early 70s Cat Stevens albums

[JSVice]

Interesting... I love the guy as a songwriter, but the engineering choices really annoy me sometimes. There's one song, maybe it's "Wild World", where the noise of the pick strumming is overbearing. Doesn't that bother you at all?

[Sharp11]

I feel the same, I LOVE the songs, hate the recordings, I mostly find them annoying, too.

However, some of it is Cat Stevens' fault, I think, he'd often perform in the studio in a rushed, sloppy manner, getting too loud with the vocal (distortion), rushing his guitar parts, pounding the crap out of the piano - I've listened to a lot of this stuff so many times and wished he'd have taken the performances down a notch or two....

Oh well, they were his records.

Oh, and to answer the original poster's question, I have no idea what was used, suffice to say, it was probably boiler-plate early 70's stuff.

Ed

[recky]

Yeah, in the "weird" department, the acoustic guitars are the worst offenders. Often, they sound as if they were recorded through a dynamic mic with a sick treble boost dialled in. (In fact, they remind me of some of the guitars on the most recent Ray Lamontagne album, although here they were recorded far more "tastefully").

That's the kind of stuff I'd love to find out about....

Cheers,

Recky

[mr scratchy esq]

I think the production on Tea... and Teaser are exemplary. I have early brown label A&M pressings of these and they are audiophile demo quality recordings. I'd like to know the recording details of these records also.

Bill

[Ruphus]

I can respect that opinions differ, but am really astonished about these comments.
Those recordings are some of the best that I ever heard both technically and performance wise; what is critiszed above being exactly what makes them so special.

I wonder whether has been anything out there that could be pleasing critiques like that, as there hasn´t been much that would combine originality, performance and capture that way really.

Anyway, for the original poster: You might ask William Wittman ( whose work - and thinking - I adore ) he worked with C.C.

Ruphus

[The dman]

what is critiszed above being exactly what makes them so special.

Exactly

I listened to "Tea for the Tillerman" after not hearing it for 25 years and it rocks. What struck me was some of the guitar accents (turnarounds) are off time but to me that just adds to the charm of some great songs/feelings and record.

I always wondered what guitars Cat used to record with. I know for a while he was using Ovations but I'd be surprised if he recorded with these.

[JSVice]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

I wonder whether has been anything out there that could be pleasing critiques like that, as there hasn´t been much that would combine originality, performance and capture that way really.

I'm easily pleased. How about keeping "Wild World" the same, except turn down the clickity-click of his plectrum? I don't think having the volume of the pick louder than the guitar makes anything special. I think it detracts from the song. Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with mistakes in recording when it suits the vibe. The guitar solo in "Let it Be" is an example. It's not an example of technical perfection, but it suits the mood. That's all I'm saying. Cat Stevens is still great. Yousef Islam, not so much.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by JSVice

Interesting... I love the guy as a songwriter, but the engineering choices really annoy me sometimes. There's one song, maybe it's "Wild World", where the noise of the pick strumming is overbearing. Doesn't that bother you at all?

Couldn't disagree more, I totally LOVE that acoustic guitar sound, it's compressed like a mother (a Pye compressor maybe?) but it has a great texture/drive.

C.S on the early albums has some of my fave acoustic guitar sounds, along with Jimmy Page, Roy Harper and Stephen Stills from the same period.

[massimo]

Too long ago, so I may be wrong, but maybe there was a main acoustic guitarist in those early Stevens albums, named Alun Davies. He also went on doing a solo album named "Daydo" if I recall correctly. My memories tell me acoustics sounded great on those albums, like those on early John Martyn albums.

Best regards
Massimo

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by JSVice

Cat Stevens is still great. Yousef Islam, not so much.

He he he! That sounds so funny ...

Saw him 1983 on TV in NY. Like a schlager guy dressed with suit and tie, holding just a mic. Oh my ... Guess that was before Yousef Islam, but weird and so sad looking already.

Ruphus

[Steffmo]

Tea For the Tillerman sounds KILLER...and really different. I would have figured you compression freaks around here would LOVE it.

I always remember being astounded by the bass......I thought it was some kind or electric upright thing. No one had that particular sound.

[vernier]

Stuff sounds great, as it always has.

[The dman]

I just listened to Heard Headed Woman" you guys are right, some major squashing going on with the acoustic guitar track. I love the Toms, so 70ish

[Mark107]

Originally Posted by recky

Yeah, in the "weird" department, the acoustic guitars are the worst offenders. Often, they sound as if they were recorded through a dynamic mic with a sick treble boost dialled in. (In fact, they remind me of some of the guitars on the most recent Ray Lamontagne album, although here they were recorded far more "tastefully").

That's the kind of stuff I'd love to find out about....

Cheers,

Recky

Unless I am mistaken, he played Ovation guitars, you know, the ones made out of plastic. Ever notice that everyone who plays one sucks? With a VERY exceptions, Cat Stevens being one of them. But that is truly how they sound. Like crap.

[softwareguy]

I really admire and am fascinated by the sound of these records, especially Tea for the Tillerman and Teaser and the Firecat. They grab your attention immediately in a way that is actually quite amazing when you consider all of the whiny sounding singer/songwriter crap that followed. The acoustic guitar sounds are instantly recognizable and compelling. I think that CS knew exactly what he was doing and that if you buffed it all up to a high polish, it would very much risk losing all urgency. I've even made peace with the out-of-time drum parts, which would simply be banned nowadays.

As it is, while it doesn't sound "technically" right, it sounds right for the song to me, and it bears much repeated listening, which is for me the ultimate test.

YMMV, and no doubt does, but great topic.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by softwareguy

... and it bears much repeated listening, which is for me the ultimate test.

I know, this want meant in a long-term sense, but it´s true in short-time too.

Nothing tops his music for romantic bed sessions with a maid, and it´s been a couple of times in the past that his records were cycling in an auto-reverse mode of a cassette deck for hours and hours and just greatly suiting all the time. :O)

Ruphus

[Sharp11]

I like the records, in fact, I LOVE them, but they're flawed, but so what?

The extreme compression just makes the flaws stand out even more, imo.

Anyway, I listen to everything with a critical ear, I'm a professional musician/engineer, how could I not?

Ed

[AjD]

Whoa, Cat-haters. Settle down, you're getting dog hair on the couch . I can't imagine those classic Cat Stevens records without their odd, entirely unique sonic signature. It's what makes them so weird and special.

It's many things, really - the songs (of course), Cat's one-of-a-kind vocal timbre, and, as mentioned, the quirky engineering techniques (as mentioned, lots of compression; boxy/woody sounds; narrow - but somehow really deep - mixes, at least by modern standards).

But what really blows me away are the arrangement choices. The percussion parts - sounds almost Middle Eastern at times, no? Or, the subtle, weird acoustic string lines - not at all of the folk-rock genre, at least for the time (which was either American blues or British folk influenced, and his best stuff was neither). And those airy sort of Moroccan-sounding backing vocals! Like some sort of Persian choir, I swear, a lot of it sounds like desert liturgical music to me. I'm not surprised he eventually 'found' religion - the clues are there, at least to my ears.

I am sort of a closet soft rock freak - and I'd say Cat Stevens is one of the most memorable and best of that era. Listened to his stuff again for the first time in decades last summer. It held up.

(Of course, I also lost my virginity to Teaser & The Firecat. So take all this for what it's worth. )

Adam

[never174]

The great thing about those early Cat Stevens albums are how indie they sound. Very different from all the other folk rock artists of that time. I don't know how to describe it, he had more of a "punk rock" attitude about the music.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Sharp11

I like the records, in fact, I LOVE them, but they're flawed, but so what?

The extreme compression just makes the flaws stand out even more, imo.

Anyway, I listen to everything with a critical ear, I'm a professional musician/engineer, how could I not?

'Flawed'? What do you mean? You seem to think that these guys didn't know what they were doing. The compression choice, like it or not, was an artistical decision and surely not 'oops, we forgot to patch out that Pye thing there but what the heck'.....

I rather think that most of today's ultra-bright + thin 'Nashvile/Music Row'-type acoustic sounds are lacking.

As mentioned in an above post, these records sport great arrangement, obviously a lot of thought went into it.

To be honest, I couldn't stand Cat Stevens in my youth, it though it was sissy stuff but I really didn't listen.......

Fast forward 20 years or so, I'm sitting with a friend of mine in a 'hip' coffehouse-type of place. We're discussing a recording project while getting drunk at the same time and at some point I mention that there's some REALLY cool music been playing in the background with especially amazing acoustic guitar sounds. My friend just laughed and told me it was Cat Stevens.....

Anyway, I love the compression technique they used, same with the Buffalo Springfield records: Compressed like mad but with a purpose.

Compression has gotten a bad name tehse days because of the sensless loudness race. But we shouldn't forget that it uswd to be done for creative reasons i.e Joe Meek, The Beatles, etc

[recky]

As the original poster I'm taking the liberty to bump this thread - perhaps we can get William Wittman to join in, if he's indeed worked with Cat Stevens (and I admire WW's work and engineering/production stance).

I have to repeat how much I LOVE these albums! I've only just rediscovered them and am completely amazed at their warmth, compactness (for want of a better word), and occasionally, wonderful weirdness...

Recky

[recky]

Oh, and BTW:

I very much doubt that CS's acoustic on these recordings is an Ovation. He (like many others in the era) played Ovations on stage because they were equipped with a transducer of sorts.

His main guitar seems to have been a blonde Gibson Jumbo.

Recky

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by recky

His main guitar seems to have been a blonde Gibson Jumbo.

And it surely sounds like that. I hear that 'dry sparkle' that all the great Gibsons have.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by AjD

But what really blows me away are the arrangement choices. The percussion parts - sounds almost Middle Eastern at times, no? Or, the subtle, weird acoustic string lines - not at all of the folk-rock genre, at least for the time (which was either American blues or British folk influenced, and his best stuff was neither). And those airy sort of Moroccan-sounding backing vocals! Like some sort of Persian choir, I swear, a lot of it sounds like desert liturgical music to me. I'm not surprised he eventually 'found' religion - the clues are there, at least to my ears.

Well observed.
Cat Stevens´ father was Greek. One of the old fashioned tryant styles. He had a restaurant where Cat gathered his experience with playing before public. However, he tried to escape the terror of his father ( "Father And Son") and went from Orthodox Greek Christian to Buddhism ( "Kathmandu" ) as a protest action against his father. Later on his spiritual seek he met some moslems who persuaded him to join the `only true religion´. As genius as he was, he was insecure and suggestible on the other hand, merely knowing one thing for certain, which was that he didn´t want to be like his old man.
Shall all the machos who try playing the father role learn from that.

So, what made much of his originality was blending all these different influences into his music. Very remarkable to my ears when he implemented Gregorian chores for instance. It was his compositions that made me take that kind of chores for serious. Before that I thought them to sound just funny.

And he is a great example for giving an idea about what the world has missed out on culture wise with all the nationalities simply just copying Anglo-Saxon and French music. It is a pity that all those different cultures didn´t come to develop their own modernity. We would be having a much richer pool of music instead of everyone from Tokyo to Timbouctou now recording some rap crap.

Originally Posted by recky

Oh, and BTW:

I very much doubt that CS's acoustic on these recordings is an Ovation. He (like many others in the era) played Ovations on stage because they were equipped with a transducer of sorts.

His main guitar seems to have been a blonde Gibson Jumbo.

Recky

Yeah, I was wondering too, reading here that he was supposed to be playing ovations. The guitars in his records rather sound like good old fashioned acoustics to me.

And Doorknocker is right about compression.
Makes me think of the ol´ J.J. Cale records. Compressed to hell - and admittedly, sometimes not exactly hifi -, but they absolutely grab your attention and make you swing nonetheless.

With or without, I guess it is about the right choice for the individual case.

Ruphus

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Anyway, I love the compression technique they used, same with the Buffalo Springfield records: Compressed like mad but with a purpose.

Not me, I hate extreme compression, always have.

Also, we don't know if compression was used on Cat's records for creative reasons or to curb his all-over-the-map dynamics (I suspect the latter).

I say "flawed" because my musical ear detects a lot of problems as mentioned, rushing tempos for one.

However, there's so much genius in the songwriting, I simply don't care.

Btw, I'm a Duane fan, too.

Ed

[billgennaro]

i think whether or not you like the sound of these albums might have a lot to do with your age. many people who grew up back then (me included) love the relaxed, easy-going way of playing that most artists exhibited. the music was "loose" sounding. the little engineering woes during the sessions were kept in many instances and led to unique overall sounds. those heavily blues influenced singer/songwriters that were so pervasive back then are almost gone now (martin sexton being one exception). as a result, music has lost most of its soul (at least to some of us old folks). check out sticky fingers by the stones. the recording of mick's vocals would be criticized to death, by today's standards, because not every word he sings is clearly audible. but i love this loose technique and yearn for more of the same. today's players are great but lack a little something in my book (of course, there are many exceptions). to let little things like the sound of a guitar players plectrum stand in your way of enjoying a great song says that we take engineering too seriously. sure, our jobs are to do the best we can but never, never, never at the expense of the vibe of the song. anyway, i believe tea for the tillerman was recorded at the chateau in france. ian anderson liked the sound of this album so much that he moved there for a year to try and capture the same quality for jethro tull. in his own words: "it didn't work out the same for us".

[gregl]

IMHO hearing one of the better Cat Stevens records these days (or any of a number of other records cut back when) reminds exactly of why I get tired of listening to a lot of the newer stuff so quickly- so much of the new stuff has no quirks that distinguish it from everything else. Everybody has to have the same gear, the timing has to be dead on perfect (like a drum machine), compressed to death so nothing breathes, everything that suggests this is a real piece of music performed by someone real sucked out of it.
I'm a believer in embracing all the possibilities that digital gives us, but it seems like sometimes the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. For me its hard to beat a cool piece of music recorded to analog without overdoing the production.

[Bassmankr]

Just another example of the "Louie Louie" syndrome, a great song that makes someone groove/rock/listen doesn't have to be recorded great. At least you can make out all of Cat's words LOL. Who knows the name of his very first album?

[recky]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Just another example of the "Louie Louie" syndrome, a great song that makes someone groove/rock/listen doesn't have to be recorded great. At least you can make out all of Cat's words LOL. Who knows the name of his very first album?

Was it "Matthew & Son"???

Recky