Guerrilla Mastering: How loud is loud enough?

[RichT]

I know the volume war rages on but how loud is loud enough when mastering?

I've just mastered a project for a client. Got it sounding punchy, eq nicely and limited. It sounded great, I could of got it louder but didn't want to because the dynamics were just right.

It is a fair bit quieter than most commerical CDs but the clients are happy, what do you think?

Cheers,
Rich

[Teacher]

if the clients are happy then thats what really matters

also if your not an experienced ME i wouldn't recommend competing with the experienced ME's with volume cuz 9 out of 10 times you'll lose...YMMV

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by RichT


It is a fair bit quieter than most commerical CDs but the clients are happy

Rich

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by RichT
It is a fair bit quieter than most commerical CDs but the clients are happy, what do you think?

I think you nailed it. That's the bottom line...

[jbuntz]

When people ask for a hotter CD and usually tell them "this is all your getting. You can pay to have it mastered elsewhere." If I try to match commercial levels it will sound like dog poop. If the CD sounds like dog poop, other potential clients will hear it.

[David Herbert]

I think the LOUD sound is like breast implants. For a while people loved the big, plasic looking breasts, but now they are (rightly) seen by many (if not most, I haven't taken a poll) as hilarious. Small is beautiful! David

[RichT]

Thanks guys.

I didn't know if there was secret 'standard' db level that pro MEs will aim for.

So I guess the answer to my question is: 'As loud as I can get it without it sounding poop, and then after that recommend the client go elsewhere for mastering.'

I learnt lots today

[Bob Olhsson]

The right level really depends on how the CD is going to be marketed. If it's going into the focus groups that determine airplay, it needs to be competitive with everything else its up against. If it's an indi project that just needs to sound great, there's no sane reason to make the fans suffer for solving a problem the CD will never face.

[RichT]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
The right level really depends on how the CD is going to be marketed. If it's going into the focus groups that determine airplay, it needs to be competitive with everything else its up against. If it's an indi project that just needs to sound great, there's no sane reason to make the fans suffer for solving a problem the CD will never face.

Bob,

It's an indie record but the band is hoping it's their 'breakthrough' album. The material is certainly good enough and there is a lot of press anticipation.

I mastered their last album that put them on the map. It was actually louder than the latest recording but I really really squished that one. Decided this time round I didn't want to do that.

Well, if it's need to mastered 'properly' due to market demand then so be it, it's down to their pocket.

Cheers,
Rich

[ElectriK Noize]

Originally posted by David Herbert
I think the LOUD sound is like breast implants. For a while people loved the big, plasic looking breasts, but now they are (rightly) seen by many (if not most, I haven't taken a poll) as hilarious. Small is beautiful! David

LOL!!!!

Dude thats the best thing I've read all day. Gonna print that out, frame it and hang it in my control room.

-John

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by RichT
...It's an indie record but the band is hoping it's their 'breakthrough' album. The material is certainly good enough and there is a lot of press anticipation....

Fortunately I'm pretty sure the UK is lots less advertising-dominated than we are. This is one period in history when you R-E-A-L-L-Y don't want to imitate what we're doing over on this side!

[tradershort]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
Fortunately I'm pretty sure the UK is lots less advertising-dominated than we are. This is one period in history when you R-E-A-L-L-Y don't want to imitate what we're doing over on this side!

True Bob, they aren't as ad dominated as we are, but musically they're no angels in the UK or Europe either. Their Pop music scene is as horrific if not more so than ours. (no offense intended to you personally Rich). They do however, always seem to appreciate good American music more than we do (like Jazz).

I spent a lot of time in the UK and Europe from '98-'03 touring and doing TV shows and was consistently knocked out by how BAD the music scene was. Absolute tripe for the most part. I was particularly horrified by radio in London, having been weened on the Brit legends Beatles, Zep, Stones, Who, Clapton, Beck, etc. I expected SOMETHING, anything. Needless to say I was very disappointed. We did have a couple of very good opening bands (Picture House & The Real People) who I really liked, but you'd never hear them on the radio there.

Anyway, not that I'm proud of the music being made at home so much, I'm actually embarrassed by most of it, but I must say that shitty, commercial, "canned" music seems to be a worldwide epidemic. But, unfortunately, as usual, America is probably leading the way.....

Damon LaScot

PS: I'm sure this diatribe was not necessary, particularly in this thread, and for that I apologize.

[Bob Olhsson]

When you get the advertising out of the equation at least you aren't being penalized by market research if you put out a ballsy-sounding CD that isn't at stun level. To me this means the UK has more potential to sell great sounding recordings at the moment. Doesn't mean they will.

[RichT]

Originally posted by tradershort
True Bob, they aren't as ad dominated as we are, but musically they're no angels in the UK or Europe either. Their Pop music scene is as horrific if not more so than ours. (no offense intended to you personally Rich). They do however, always seem to appreciate good American music more than we do (like Jazz).

I spent a lot of time in the UK and Europe from '98-'03 touring and doing TV shows and was consistently knocked out by how BAD the music scene was. Absolute tripe for the most part. I was particularly horrified by radio in London, having been weened on the Brit legends Beatles, Zep, Stones, Who, Clapton, Beck, etc. I expected SOMETHING, anything. Needless to say I was very disappointed. We did have a couple of very good opening bands (Picture House & The Real People) who I really liked, but you'd never hear them on the radio there.

Anyway, not that I'm proud of the music being made at home so much, I'm actually embarrassed by most of it, but I must say that shitty, commercial, "canned" music seems to be a worldwide epidemic. But, unfortunately, as usual, America is probably leading the way.....

Damon LaScot

PS: I'm sure this diatribe was not necessary, particularly in this thread, and for that I apologize.

Trader,

No worries about the length of your post, I share your feelings about the music scene and thus I get very excited when a band moves me because there is so much tripe about.

What were you up to in London around that time? I was having my fifteen minutes of fame around then and was in London lots. Wonder if we crossed paths.

Cheers,
Rich

[stealthbalance]

isn't there some level to be gained still and still not destroy the music's dynamics??
I would think that to have a cd that sounds great but is more than 2 or 3 db less then the competition would not be good. when i mix , i always try and make the level competetive with current hits - not the insane smashed ones , but good strong hit cds. being played anywhere in the world between 2 other cds that are a few db louder is not a pleasant experience. thats the one thing i like about mixing with daws - is that you can play the volume wars but not degrade the music as much as beating up a 1/2" tape for that extra 8 db. MVHO
s

[Boogle]

IMHO the volume wars will always be settled by the delivery medium. ie Radio, TV, cinema etc. They seem to have this way of crushing/squashing everything thrown in thier path....

Don't see the point of doing the inevitable twice over.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by stealthbalance
isn't there some level to be gained still and still not destroy the music's dynamics??
I would think that to have a cd that sounds great but is more than 2 or 3 db less then the competition would not be good. when i mix , i always try and make the level competetive with current hits - not the insane smashed ones , but good strong hit cds. being played anywhere in the world between 2 other cds that are a few db louder is not a pleasant experience. thats the one thing i like about mixing with daws - is that you can play the volume wars but not degrade the music as much as beating up a 1/2" tape for that extra 8 db. MVHO
s

No offense intended here but this is clearly why a lot of recordings sound bad. There's really no reason to print the mix like that, with the extra 8 dB. If you need to hand the client a louder mix then fire up your favorite plug-in or whatever and use that.

When the subject of mastering comes up with my clients, many of them never mention level other then saying "make sure it's not really soft" and I can't think of a single one that came back and said it needed to be louder even when it was cut on the conservative side.

FWIW - The disc I always compare to for level is the first Rage Against the Machine album. That's pretty loud and it was really loud back in the day...about 10 years ago. If I match that most people are really happy.

[mattssons]

I divide my time working as a dj and recording music.

To tell the truth, overly sqashed songs don't last. People get tired of them. Of course the level must match what's around in the marked place, but not much is gained by being the level leader.

Well i guess this is more of a recordcompany/Copyright owner issue, if the're interested in long sales.

[dave-G]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
FWIW - The disc I always compare to for level is the first Rage Against the Machine album. That's pretty loud and it was really loud back in the day...about 10 years ago. If I match that most people are really happy.

That's a great reference for rock... It's crushing without being crushed.

-dave

[Joe_caithness]

Originally Posted by dave-G

That's a great reference for rock... It's crushing without being crushed.

-dave

Very interesting been years since I listen to that LP, will see if I can find it and check it out, luckily I work part time in a second hand record store on and off

[u b k]

4 year old thread alert.

Ain't nothin' changed!


Gregory Scott - ubk
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